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2G JayRacing Arc2

Simonsaysr1

Proven Member
135
11
Jan 30, 2016
Rocky mount, North_Carolina
recently purchased a JayRacing (Ark2) alternator relocation kit, and it didnt appear to come with any instructions on where the brackets go or what the bushing is for. I have a 97 2g 7bolt with no ac compressor bracket or bolts, does anyone have a write up for a 2g version of this, and what size bolts would i need to install this kit. when i purchased my gst it already had the compressor bracket and bolts removed
 

DSMPT

DSM Wiseman
1,286
837
Jun 12, 2014
Japan / Mexico, Arizona
This is the instructions for 2G, from Google.

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Simonsaysr1

Proven Member
135
11
Jan 30, 2016
Rocky mount, North_Carolina
Thank you.That's what ive been looking for. Everytime I tried their website, it appeared to be down...
 

Simonsaysr1

Proven Member
135
11
Jan 30, 2016
Rocky mount, North_Carolina
Also I don't have a power steering pump. What belt do I need if I'm lacking the pump. And does anyone know the length and pitch of the bolts I would need for the install , as I didn't have any to size reference
 

motomattx

Proven Member
3,296
1,199
Dec 9, 2010
wampum, Pennsylvania
Also I don't have a power steering pump. What belt do I need if I'm lacking the pump. And does anyone know the length and pitch of the bolts I would need for the install , as I didn't have any to size reference
Dayco 5040410 And you might need to trim the lower timing cover where the timing degree indicator is embossed in plastic so the belt wont rub on it.
 

Simonsaysr1

Proven Member
135
11
Jan 30, 2016
Rocky mount, North_Carolina
Dayco 5040410 And you might need to trim the lower timing cover where the timing degree indicator is embossed in plastic so the belt wont rub on it.
you wouldnt happen to have any idea what size.depth the bolts are would you? or have a picture of what you mean about shaving the embossed timing mark.,
 

Jerzm3

Supporting VIP
255
39
Jan 18, 2015
mount holly, New_Jersey
I will take a pic of my setup in about an hour. I just pulled my setup for it's yearly maintenance.
 

motomattx

Proven Member
3,296
1,199
Dec 9, 2010
wampum, Pennsylvania
I have mine pulled for maintenance also, thats the only reason that I had the belt size, it was laying on my bedroom floor LOL, since I had my Magnus intake off I decided to install a Bosch CS130 rebuilt and pull the junkyard one off before it fails at some random time, then I would be forced to pull the intake somewhere inconvienient to get to the alternator, I also decided to install a nice billet 3 1/2" underdrive alternator pulley to slow it down since I was losing output at 5k and above and just running on battery in that rpm range.

Im guessing that those rear bolts to mount it are 10mm by 1.25 or so, they may be 10mm by 1.50 even? (I dont think they are 8mm but they could even be) by maybe 50mm long, thats just a guess though so its of course not much use unless you ran down to the hardware store and picked a few of those up and tried them to see which ones work, I dont have a block handy at the house right now to check, they are miles away in the machine shop or in storage.
 

Jerzm3

Supporting VIP
255
39
Jan 18, 2015
mount holly, New_Jersey
61C125E9-700A-48B5-8455-077C5A1BCABE.jpeg
C619240C-99DE-4D87-B47D-58EE603D2A1A.jpeg
8A36A561-F7E8-4456-AD2F-DF24043A06B0.jpeg
71E327A7-3F4E-4104-8CB1-A913E685992C.jpeg
Heres pics of my setup. Let me know if you have any questions.
 

gofer

Moderator
8,076
1,176
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
Gotta read the post I linked to...

The best option from what I've found (ECMLink : Anybody put an alternator relocation on a 2g WITHOUT power steering?) is to run the single belt from the inside track on the crank pulley directly to the alternator that comes with the Jay Racing kit --- Dayco 5040335. Then install both the small/large pulley on the water pump, same as the stock pulley setup (the small inside pulley won't be used) and wrap a belt from the large outside water pump pulley to the outer belt track on the crank pulley. This belt won't have a tensioner so it needs to be a tight fit. If you have a stock crank pulley you'll want Dayco belt 5040320. If you have a Fluidampr crank damper the outer track is larger (over driven) so you'll need Dayco belt 5040325. To install them I found it easier to just loosen the crank pulley and wrap the belt around it, then put it back in place on the crank, instead of trying to walk the belt on. Don't forget to torque the (4) bolts back down to 18ft/lbs. I bought both belts and installed them both on my 2g with the stock 2g OE crank pulley and Fluidampr damper too and belt tension was good with both.
 

Jerzm3

Supporting VIP
255
39
Jan 18, 2015
mount holly, New_Jersey
Cool setup, but I have a question:
What are you using as a belt tensioner for the belt from the crank harmonic balancer pulley to water pump pulley?

Thanks .

No tensioner needed. Walk the belt on and go. I spin the motor to 9500 no problem with it at all, never slipped the belt off. Perfect size. Hope that helps.
 

Simonsaysr1

Proven Member
135
11
Jan 30, 2016
Rocky mount, North_Carolina
thank you everyone for their input. Answered alot of my questions i had in my head. Time to go pull the intake off and get to it!
 

El Cuervo

Proven Member
545
16
Nov 7, 2004
Omaha, Nebraska
No tensioner needed. Walk the belt on and go. I spin the motor to 9500 no problem with it at all, never slipped the belt off. Perfect size. Hope that helps.
That's interesting. So no tensioner needed!
Perfect!. Thank you very much man!
 

motomattx

Proven Member
3,296
1,199
Dec 9, 2010
wampum, Pennsylvania
You can also run the single belt with the part number that I provided and run the water pump and alternator from a single belt, it does require trimming the lower cover though as I said.
 

gofer

Moderator
8,076
1,176
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
You can also run the single belt with the part number that I provided and run the water pump and alternator from a single belt, it does require trimming the lower cover though as I said.
It's possible, yes, but not recommended because running the belt on the smaller diameter water pump will cause cavitation in your cooling system and you'll damage/blow-up your water pump. The outer track on the OE crank pulley and outer (larger) WP pulley rotate at a 1.07:1 ratio, meaning when the crank is rotating at 8000rpm the WP is spinning at 8560rpm. If you run a belt on the inside track of the crank pulley to the small water pump pulley when you delete your PS and relocate the alternator the crank/WP pulley ratio goes to 1.76:1. So, when the crank is wrapped out to 8000rpm the WP is spinning at 14080rpm.
 

motomattx

Proven Member
3,296
1,199
Dec 9, 2010
wampum, Pennsylvania
It's possible, yes, but not recommended because running the belt on the smaller diameter water pump will cause cavitation in your cooling system and you'll damage/blow-up your water pump. The outer track on the OE crank pulley and outer (larger) WP pulley rotate at a 1.07:1 ratio, meaning when the crank is rotating at 8000rpm the WP is spinning at 8560rpm. If you run a belt on the inside track of the crank pulley to the small water pump pulley when you delete your PS and relocate the alternator the crank/WP pulley ratio goes to 1.76:1. So, when the crank is wrapped out to 8000rpm the WP is spinning at 14080rpm.

Yes, so they say but some of us have had them like that for years and never had any issues, consider the rpm that your alternator is spinning at with a 2 1/2" pulley on it when your at 9k rpm! how many of those have blown up? none that I have ever seen yet, even on high milage junk yard used 100k mile alternators, they take it like a champ, that being said Im sure there exists a larger water pump pulley option somewhere out there if we wanted to go that route, I simply dont like the idea of running a belt to a pump with no ability to tension it, theres too much at stake and there no way to compensate for belt stretch after the belt breaks in, and it adds complexity to things, such as having to pull the crank dampener any time you want to pull the alternator belt to replace it, maybe someone with a cnc that wants to make Dsm parts could come up with a larger water pump pulley!
 

gofer

Moderator
8,076
1,176
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
It's not "so they say", it's actually a fact that this occurs if you're running a propeller outside of it's designed RPM range. If you're basing your reasoning on "well look at the diameter of the alternator pulley" then there's no sense of even having this discussion, just because two things have pulley's doesn't mean the way they function is comparable. Even still, it's not a bad idea to reduce the alternator pulley ratio either, as long as you're able maintain sufficient voltage at idle (low rpm).

The reason why pulley ratio from the crank to the water pump is so important is due to pump speed (the water pump moves fluid unlike the alternator) and if it rotates too fast it will cavitate. As I'm sure you're aware, water boils at 100*C (212*F) at atmospheric pressure (14.7psi at sea level) but by running a pressurized radiator cap (OE is 13psi) you're also effectively increasing the boiling point of the water in your cars cooling system because you're raising the pressure from atmospheric by 13psi taking it's calculated boiling point from 100*C (212*F) to 118*C (244.4*F). When you induce cavitation into a pressurized cooling system (by spinning the water pump too fast) you're creating low pressure zones on the propeller which induces steam pockets in your cooling system, considerably lowering its boiling point. This is only relative to the negative effects of what will happen on your cooling systems ability to cool the engin, I'm certain that Aisin (the company who manufactures the water pumps for our DSMs) didn't design them to rotate at nearly twice the RPM either so who knows how greatly you're reducing the life of the pump itself, cavitation aside.

If you're skeptical, here's a nuts and bolts video as it relates to cavitation.


I actually emailed Aisin regarding their water pump propeller design in May of last year and after a few back and fourth emails I was told that this was proprietary information that they couldn't share.

Aisin said:
Hello Corey,
My name is Cesar Tamayo and I am the Product Specialist for Aisin World Corporation of America. We received your question regarding our WPM-048 and if you may receive Maximum RPM or a Flow Curve Graph. Regretfully this data we are not allowed to be released and I do not even have access to that data. Is your concern regarding this part if will provide adequate water flow or if it will over rev and cause cavitation in your application? What application are you planning on using this Water Pump?
Thank you
Aisin said:
I have requested this information from our engineering team in Japan and just as I suspected, that information we are not allowed to release. I sincerely apologize for not being able to help in providing the information you requested. If you ever have any other questions please feel free to contact me.
Thank you

It is a bit speculative without info from Aisin but Mitsubishi worked with Aisin on designing a water pump with a crank pulley ratio of 1.07:1 (8000k:8560k) and you're running it to 1.76:1 (8000k:14080k) I would bet you're seeing a significant increase in your coolant temps on a 1/4 mile pass from start to finish due to cavitation.

...maybe someone with a cnc that wants to make Dsm parts could come up with a larger water pump pulley!

Good idea. :) https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/6-bolt-waterpump-pulley-solution.469099/

Unorthodox racing, a supporting DSMTuners site vendor, has also mentioned that they can create any specific pulley size you ask for if they can get at least 10 people to buy it in a group buy. If you don't feel comfortable running a belt without a tensioner I'd recommend trying to get Unorthodox racing to get a group by going.
 

motomattx

Proven Member
3,296
1,199
Dec 9, 2010
wampum, Pennsylvania
It's not "so they say", it's actually a fact that this occurs if you're running a propeller outside of it's designed RPM range. If you're basing your reasoning on "well look at the diameter of the alternator pulley" then there's no sense of even having this discussion, just because two things have pulley's doesn't mean the way they function is comparable. Even still, it's not a bad idea to reduce the alternator pulley ratio either, as long as you're able maintain sufficient voltage at idle (low rpm).

The reason why pulley ratio from the crank to the water pump is so important is due to pump speed (the water pump moves fluid unlike the alternator) and if it rotates too fast it will cavitate. As I'm sure you're aware, water boils at 100*C (212*F) at atmospheric pressure (14.7psi at sea level) but by running a pressurized radiator cap (OE is 13psi) you're also effectively increasing the boiling point of the water in your cars cooling system because you're raising the pressure from atmospheric by 13psi taking it's calculated boiling point from 100*C (212*F) to 118*C (244.4*F). When you induce cavitation into a pressurized cooling system (by spinning the water pump too fast) you're creating low pressure zones on the propeller which induces steam pockets in your cooling system, considerably lowering its boiling point. This is only relative to the negative effects of what will happen on your cooling systems ability to cool the engin, I'm certain that Aisin (the company who manufactures the water pumps for our DSMs) didn't design them to rotate at nearly twice the RPM either so who knows how greatly you're reducing the life of the pump itself, cavitation aside.

If you're skeptical, here's a nuts and bolts video as it relates to cavitation.


I actually emailed Aisin regarding their water pump propeller design in May of last year and after a few back and fourth emails I was told that this was proprietary information that they couldn't share.



It is a bit speculative without info from Aisin but Mitsubishi worked with Aisin on designing a water pump with a crank pulley ratio of 1.07:1 (8000k:8560k) and you're running it to 1.76:1 (8000k:14080k) I would bet you're seeing a significant increase in your coolant temps on a 1/4 mile pass from start to finish due to cavitation.



Good idea. :) https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/6-bolt-waterpump-pulley-solution.469099/

Unorthodox racing, a supporting DSMTuners site vendor, has also mentioned that they can create any specific pulley size you ask for if they can get at least 10 people to buy it in a group buy. If you don't feel comfortable running a belt without a tensioner I'd recommend trying to get Unorthodox racing to get a group by going.


Being an engineering student I am very overly aware of cavitation and its results, what I am getting at is that I have never had any issues with it causing overheating in this setup and I havent known anyone else to have the issue with the same setup... its not ideal thats for sure, we really DO need to get a group buy on a pulley or find one from something else that we can modify to work, maybe that can be a project for me next trip to the junk yard!
 

Simonsaysr1

Proven Member
135
11
Jan 30, 2016
Rocky mount, North_Carolina
btw the bolts are m10x1.25, roughly 25mm long, really 28mm would be perfect but 25mm will work, im going with the belt from the Crank pulley to the water pump pulley with a dayco 5040320. man... those bottom intake manifold bolts are fun. I ended up using the wire loop method on the wrench which worked great. having the turbo out gave me room to step into the engine bay which helped out alot., just waiting on a galant altnernator to arrive to finish up the job.
 

gofer

Moderator
8,076
1,176
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
One thing I might add, the through bolt that holds the tension to the alternator backed out on me while I was driving. I recommend replacing it with a longer bolt that will thread through the alternator and then putting a lock washer/nut on it to keep it from backing out.

44786377_711140759245164_7566725158476447744_n.jpg
 

Jerzm3

Supporting VIP
255
39
Jan 18, 2015
mount holly, New_Jersey
One thing I might add, the through bolt that holds the tension to the alternator backed out on me while I was driving. I recommend replacing it with a longer bolt that will thread through the alternator and then putting a lock washer/nut on it to keep it from backing out.

View attachment 563369

Same thing happened to me. I applied a little blue loctite, never happened again.
 

ThunderChild

Supporting VIP
3,761
1,113
Jan 5, 2012
Rathdrum, Idaho
One thing I might add, the through bolt that holds the tension to the alternator backed out on me while I was driving. I recommend replacing it with a longer bolt that will thread through the alternator and then putting a lock washer/nut on it to keep it from backing out.

View attachment 563369

Same thing happened to me. I applied a little blue loctite, never happened again.

Another here. I caught it before the bolt completely fell out, added a lock washer and cranked it down till I went back to a front mounted alt. I found that replacing the alt would be a nightmare with the cyclone manifold and I didn't like the belt arrangement.

Anywho, carry on!
 

Simonsaysr1

Proven Member
135
11
Jan 30, 2016
Rocky mount, North_Carolina
yeah the relocation kit does put it in a bad spot to get to in a pinch.. i would hate to have to pull my intake off to change the alternator on the side of the road. i ordered a new alternator just for that reason. I was planning on using blue locktite. but the longer bolt with a nut and lock washer sounds like a much better idea.
 
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