Is my fuel setup okay for E85

[StrokerMax]

I am just about to put my rebuilt motor back in my car Sunday. Once I get the motor broken in, I want to convert to to E85. I've already read about all the benefits and draw backs about the conversion.

My car has an all aftermarket fuel system with: a fuel lab fuel filter, Fuel Injector clinic Rail, Stainless sending and return lines, Precision 1000cc injectors, a Walbro 255 fuel pump, and I'm running DSMlink.

I see a lot of people saying that you need twin Walbro's and 1600cc injectors. Is that correct or will I be okay with what I have? I should put out pretty decent HP... I'm running a Garrett GT35 Turbo, with a 6 bolt swap (fully built with a stoker crank).

Thanks for your help.

 

[StrokerMax]

Found this calculator... Think I'm going to get the 1650's. Maybe the FIC Blue Max. Just don't want to have to run a driver box. http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/hp-calculator

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I've had 3 sets of 1450s on personal projects.. just do yourself a favor and spring for some ID2000s/2200s or FIC 2150s. Skip the BlueMax stuff.

You're running a > 60mm turbo on E85, get your self a fuel system with a margin of error and some future-proofing built in. It'll save you time, money and headaches.

Yes the 2000cc guys expensive.. but so is buying multiple times because you either can't get the first set dialed in, get sick of part throttle hiccups or run out of injector when you actually turn the boost up.

I'm making somewhere in the neighborhood of 700+ and my IDCs are in the mid 70s on these ID units.

 

[boost97gst]

So it turns out that I lost one of the injector tip cups for my Precision 1000cc injectors and they're hard to find. These things look a little old and I'm going to make the upgrade now. The local shop has some Fuel Injection Clinic 1150's... They're the Hi-Z. Do you guys think I should go with those or bigger? Again I have a GT35R turbo which I think is rated up to 600HP. I see some FIC BLUEMAX 1450CC's for around the same price. Does the injector latency make much of a difference?

I lost one of those black tip thingamajigs too. NAPA has em. You'll need a dremel but they'll work just fine after a little cutting.
Im with ls, if you're upgrading go BIG. Take it from a guy who owns pte 1000s and bosch 1600s. i should have just spent the $750 in the first place and got 2150s. Dont ever even think of boschs. I wont get started but theres a reason NO ONE runs them. They are good at one thing: WOT.
I would also suggest a hi-z injector(i.e. the fic 2150s). Gets rid of a potential trouble spot in the resistor box. One less thing to worry about right?

 

[StrokerMax]

Thanks for the info guys! Especially knowing Napa has the little black cup things. I looked all over town for a replacement but not at Napa. I'll go by there tomorrow. Dangit. I already jumped the gun and bought some FIC 1650's... The Bluemax ones. I'm wishing I got the 2150's. I guess I'll see how they do. I also ordered a Walbro 450 today. I've already dumped a lot into this car and figured I might as well get the last few things.

 

[c2ypt1c]

Again I have a GT35R turbo which I think is rated up to 600HP. I see some FIC BLUEMAX 1450CC's for around the same price.

Go with the 1450's. They should be enough to support your turbo on e85. I wouldn't go any lower than that. With Hi-z injectors, all you need to do is remove the resistor pack by connecting a pre-built plug or solder the wires together yourself. Here's a link to the plug:
Resistor Pack Delete Plug DSM and EVO 8/9

EDIT: didn't notice there were two pages...just read that you picked up some 1650's. Good choice

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Go with the 1450's. They should be enough to support your turbo on e85. I wouldn't go any lower than that. With Hi-z injectors, all you need to do is remove the resistor pack by connecting a pre-built plug or solder the wires together yourself. Here's a link to the plug:
Resistor Pack Delete Plug DSM and EVO 8/9

EDIT: didn't notice there were two pages...just read that you picked up some 1650's. Good choice

OP: The FIC1650s are NOT "Hi-Z" do not delete the resistor pack.

Also, the Walbro 450lph should be just about enough to support your 35r. There is a bit of a trend for them to tap out around 650whp based on 5-6 cars in our community pushing them so far.

This corroborated well with the math I did on the pump when flow charts started to get published for it back in 2012. I posted that up on the Link forum in the last month or so if you're interested.

Edit, found it:

In that particular case would not be entirely surprised if there is a restriction or voltage issue.. or both.

And on paper, you're right (barely) if these flow charts are to be believed:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Here's another that seems to back this up:
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/produ...LPH_in-tank/Walbro-450-LPH-E85-Flow-Chart.jpg

70psi Total Fuel Pressure @ 13.5V gives us ~316LPH (~5270cc/min) at the pump outlet. If we pretend there's no pressure drop at the rail rolleyes..

For E10 Pump Gas @ 0.80 Lambda (11.3:1 AFR) it would service 106lbs/min mass airflow.

For E85 @ 0.80 Lambda (7.8:1 AFR) we get 73lbs/min.

Let's give ourselves some headroom and presume this setup is capable of burning leaner, safely. E85 @ 0.85 Lambda which is 8.3:1 AFR (12.0:1 AFR on E10 Gas Scale) she'll potentially do ~78lbs/min.

But wait a sec, this all requires that your setup not only have zero fuel system pressure drop.. if you are running 40psi base fuel pressure this requires that you need to have your 78lbs/min airflow at 30psi boost.

Let's make this a bit more realistic for those of us running <80mm turbos and less than 11,000rpm in non-Arctic conditions. So we twist our MBC to load on another 10psi for a target of 40psi boost on the 40 psi base, now 80psi total.

For Pump E10, in this magical fairyland, you can still support upwards 95lbs/min @ 0.80 Lambda.

Though even with a perfect fuel system we're left with:
80psi E85 @ 0.85 Lambda = 70lbs/min
80psi E85 @ 0.80 Lambda = 66lbs/min

Which is about comparable (slightly less actually) to what the MP-4303 is putting out at 110psi under those conditions.

As far as amp draw.. 70psi @ ~13.5V for both shows the 450LPH pulls 16.5A and the 4303 is taking 18.5A if I remember right.. The 4303 will obviously pull away at higher pressure.

If you really intend to push your setup, I would be changing the fuel system. You have no safety margin on the pump and a lack of fine control on the injectors as it sits now.

c2ypt1c:
Even with the longer pulsewidths E85 commands, these injectors are generally a poor choice now. They were just approaching acceptable on E85 before these new 2000cc guys hit the market.

They do not behave well at all on E0/E10 majority gasoline fuels.

 

[c2ypt1c]

Hmm, yeah now I remember reading about some issues with them on the ecmlink forum. From what I recall the idle/deadtime was a bit funky.

And yes, the 1650's are low-impedence, no resistor pack delete required. I was referring to the hi-z 1450s, pre-edit.

 

[boost97gst]

LSDSM: What about adding a boost a pump to the 450? On my build thats what ive been considering. Getting a BAP instead of an inline and all the extra plumbing needed

 

[keltalon]

LSDSM: What about adding a boost a pump to the 450? On my build thats what ive been considering. Getting a BAP instead of an inline and all the extra plumbing needed

I just purchased a kenne belle 40 amp boost a pump at the recommendation of twick, I will post my thoughts when installed! I want 700whp!

 

[boost97gst]

Niiiice, now i'll know for sure. I would THINK the BAP, along with bigger lines, would allow that 450 to go beyond 700hp. Look forward to seeing the results, Kel

 

[StrokerMax]

So it sounds like the ideal set-up for me would be the 2150's with possibly a Boost a pump as well as the Walbro 450? I'm thinking about calling the company I got my injectors from to see if I can exchange my 1650's for a set of FIC 2150's . I'll have to wait a few more days to break in the new motor since I don't have injectors...but might be worth it to have the right fuel system. If I get some 2150's, is there anything else I would need to install them? Just delete the resistor pack?
Thanks, Jeremy

 

[keltalon]

rr

So it sounds like the ideal set-up for me would be the 2150's with possibly a Boost a pump as well as the Walbro 450? I'm thinking about calling the company I got my injectors from to see if I can exchange my 1650's for a set of FIC 2150's . I'll have to wait a few more days to break in the new motor since I don't have injectors...but might be worth it to have the right fuel system. If I get some 2150's, is there anything else I would need to install them? Just delete the resistor pack?
Thanks, Jeremy

Well since the boost a pump is so new and seem so simple some will challenge this simple logic. But guess what who cares. I am at 665whp on a single walbro 450 if the boost a pump is good for an additional 25 ponies of fuel them I am all for it! To answer your question if you want to wait and see what the boost a pump does for my set up then you are in a win win situation. I think I am going to start a discussion on it once installed! 280.00 shipped to the door I said what the heck .

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Or do what any freshman year engineering student could tell you: build in margin for safety and future growth.

Nearly two years I've been telling folks the 450lph is an answer to a question no one is really asking, but some insist on wasting time and money. Look at it this way: 190 for the pump, another 50 for a rewire kit and the install kit, 280 for the BAP.. shipping for all of the above.. and you'll still be out of pump right about 725-750whp on E85. There are diminishing returns hen you crank voltage.

Which my MP4303 is currently doing without breaking a sweat FOR THE SAME PRICE and will easily service another 250+ whp @ 13.8-14.0V.

 

[StrokerMax]

Okay, I've got some 2150's on the way now!

 

[Burst]

2150's dam nice that's some hefty injectors. Now you are going to have to run a fuel pump to keep up

Would you need new fuel lines or is it only the injectors and fuel pump you need to upgrade I dont know how the factors lines are I am use to muscle cars and when they run e85 they have to change all their lines.

 

[StrokerMax]

It looked like some are running E85 with stock lines but doesn't look like the ideal set-up. My car has all stainless steel sending and return lines, Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator with electronic sending unit. That was all on there when I bought the car. Just figured I might as well go big now since I just rebuilt the motor.

Just got a Walbro 450 but Chris has me wishing I got the MP4303. I'm sure I'll do okay on the 450 for now.

 

[keltalon]

Cool! UOTE="StrokerMax, post: 153433815, member: 151598"]Okay, I've got some 2150's on the way now! [/QUOTE]

Okay, I've got some 2150's on the way now!

2150's dam nice that's some hefty injectors. Now you are going to have to run a fuel pump to keep up

Would you need new fuel lines or is it only the injectors and fuel pump you need to upgrade I dont know how the factors lines are I am use to muscle cars and when they run e85 they have to change all their lines.

I run 2150s with stock lines current whp 665 573lbs torque single walbro 450.

 

[keltalon]

That's why i say the Walbro 450 on steroids (boost a pump) is going to be just what I need for fuel demands with comfortable safety margin to spare!

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

OP: The 450 will carry you pretty far if you set it up right. But you want your system to be able to live it's full service life at your target power, not have to run fill tilt just to get there. Rule of thumb is at least 20% margin on fuel delivery.

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Do the math Kelvin... increasing voltage gains aren't linear and it's putting the pump beyond it's intended operating parameters.

How much dyno time have you paid for thats getting pissed away each time you run into fuel related trouble? What about when you finally burn it out nd have to buy a new one? Or it fails mid-pull and you lose another short block?

Being stubborn out of petty spite makes life expensive and wastes time. Pushing bandaid fixes on others seeking advice is inappropriate, IMHO.

 

[keltalon]

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Do the math Kelvin... increasing voltage gains aren't linear and it's putting the pump beyond it's intended operating parameters.

How much dyno time have you paid for thats getting pissed away each time you run into fuel related trouble? What about when you finally burn it out nd have to buy a new one? Or it fails mid-pull and you lose another short block?

Being stubborn out of petty spite makes life expensive and wastes time. Pushing bandaid fixes on others seeking advice is inappropriate, IMHO.

Lol . i have yet to read from my research any failed pumps from the boost a pump I believe what the engineers at kenne bell say and have full faith in their extensive R and D. Not to mention i have communicated with several persons on the stang , supra and evolution forums who are completely satisfied with the boost a pump setup. I will report my findings on these boards real soon the boost a pump will be installed next week. Walbro450 on steroids just fascinate me!

 

[Andrew Scott]

Sounds interesting I am running the 450 was debating buying another pump and replacing my 1850 injectors with 2150 in my question for 800hp might try the BAP

 

[keltalon]

Sounds interesting I am running the 450 was debating buying another pump and replacing my 1850 injectors with 2150 in my question for 800hp might try the BAP

Please read last paragraph of page 7

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/fuelpumptech.pdf

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Running any piece of equipment at or near 100% designed duty cycle will shorten it's service life.

Simultaneously over-driving, in this case with a BAP, it exacerbates that issue.

You don't really "research" things as history has shown. And so much for the big song and dance of putting me on your ignore list

 

[keltalon]

You don't really "research" things as history has shown. And so much for the big song and dance of putting me on your ignore list

Woo woo woo. new beautiful forum and you still the same ole angry man! 700whp next week with boost a pump.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Do you often confuse amusement for anger?

All my data shows I'm well into the 700s on a 6 year old garage rebuilt 1G rod/piston motor that's spooling this big 67mm truck turbo to 31psi @ 47xx rpm in third and rolling out another nearly 5000 rpm after that!

I've got nothing to be angry about ;-)

You on the other hand couldn't do the basic algebra to figure out you were going to run out of pump in the first place