Is my fuel setup okay for E85

[StrokerMax]

I am just about to put my rebuilt motor back in my car Sunday. Once I get the motor broken in, I want to convert to to E85. I've already read about all the benefits and draw backs about the conversion.

My car has an all aftermarket fuel system with: a fuel lab fuel filter, Fuel Injector clinic Rail, Stainless sending and return lines, Precision 1000cc injectors, a Walbro 255 fuel pump, and I'm running DSMlink.

I see a lot of people saying that you need twin Walbro's and 1600cc injectors. Is that correct or will I be okay with what I have? I should put out pretty decent HP... I'm running a Garrett GT35 Turbo, with a 6 bolt swap (fully built with a stoker crank).

Thanks for your help.

 

[c2ypt1c]

I'm well into the 700s on a 6 year old garage rebuilt 1G rod/piston motor

I gave this a one-time pass read through...went on to browse something else, then I actually realized what you just said. Holy sh*t! Isn't that the stock bottom-end 6bolt record?

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

No, I'm running too many non factory bits elsewhere.

ARP Rod bolts, ACL "Race" bearings, etc. all would disqualify me.

Currently OSTAR's 1G holds that claim at 750whp on a truly stock 6 bolt. I'm FWD for that matter too, which makes their AWD figures even more impressive to me.

Not sure what type of dyno they did that on but it doesn't matter because they backed it up at the track with the weight vs trap speed!

Mine made 597whp @ ~25psi on a Mustang dyno in December, currently running ~31psi and winding out another 1000rpm. Comparing fuel flow at the same AFR and my acceleration vs weight figures put her easily past 700whp.

 

[c2ypt1c]

Ah I gotcha. Still that's pretty damn impressive to be 700+ hp on stock rods and pistons (ie, non-forged). Wonder how far the 7bolt rods will go with some arp bolts...I mean at what point does the actual rod become the weak link, as opposed to the rod bolts. Anyway, just me thinking out loud...sorry for thread jack.

 

[keltalon]

Tal

No, I'm running too many non factory bits elsewhere.

ARP Rod bolts, ACL "Race" bearings, etc. all would disqualify me.

Currently OSTAR's 1G holds that claim at 750whp on a truly stock 6 bolt. I'm FWD for that matter too, which makes their AWD figures even more impressive to me.

Not sure what type of dyno they did that on but it doesn't matter because they backed it up at the track with the weight vs trap speed!

Mine made 597whp @ ~25psi on a Mustang dyno in December, currently running ~31psi and winding out another 1000rpm. Comparing fuel flow at the same AFR and my acceleration vs weight figures put her easily past 700whp.

this is soo hilarious!!.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Tal
this is soo hilarious!!.

Right? I also find it funny that some can perform actual research, doing things right the first time.. and some folks let their egos put effort and money to waste doing things over many times before figuring it out.

 

[StrokerMax]

Chris, do you have any info on the install for a MP404? I see its an inline pump. How did you set yours up? Do you feed it with an in tank pump? I don't know much about inline pumps.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

You can just replace your current in-tank pump with a simple pickup hose and bulkhead fitting installed in the hanger. Then run a hose from the bulkhead to wherever you'd prefer to mount the pump. MagnaFuel told me to run this by its self with -10AN hose from the tank and to the rail. They told me not to run it in series with another pump.

Conveniently, the 4303 is self-priming and rated for continuous duty, the only one this size that can claim that! Using an Aeromotive regulator and -6AN return line, my base fuel pressure is steady, tested as low as 37psi

My exact setup is more complicated than this because I have a surge tank.

 

[Stapl3]

I have a 450 and 2150s using e85 on stock lines. At 33psi all was well, then I raised it to 38 and it was going WAY lean up top. I was researching the boost-a-pump and the more I read, the better it sounded. It's very popular in the Mustang community. While reading about the BAP I discovered the JMS Powermax. It seems like a better product all around. Called and ordered one on Thursday, hope it does the trick.

If this doesn't work out I might just go mechanical. I refuse to run two pumps. Between a bigger external pump, Powermax, and 160amp alternator I'm already over half the way to mechanical.

Does anyone know of an in-tank pump that flows more than a 450? I have found the Walbro 485, but I'm not going to bother with that and at double the price of a 450.

 

[keltalon]

If this doesn't work out I might just go mechanical. I refuse to run two pumps.
.

Stap, you will be fine!

 

[boost97gst]

With just a single 4303 in line and no worries on fitting a pump in the hanger...... man that DOES sound nice. No need to run pump wiring at all into the tank. No restrictions on the pick up tube size...
If i hadnt bought the 450 and was surely looking for over 700whp i would have to say the 4303 is the better and even easier choice. The price is a bit steep, but consider buying 2 pumps, or what ive been considering: the BAP.

The big plus that you get with the BAP is rock solid steady voltage from idle to wot. Thats gonna make tuning even easier. I suppose there's ups n downs to both. People have been dealing with voltage fluctuations and tuning just fine for years and years though. Just thinking out loud, ignore this post haha


Turns out ~500 for a 4303. BAP+450 walbro is ~425 give or take a few bucks.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

With just a single 4303 in line and no worries on fitting a pump in the hanger...... man that DOES sound nice. No need to run pump wiring at all into the tank. No restrictions on the pick up tube size...
If i hadnt bought the 450 and was surely looking for over 700whp i would have to say the 4303 is the better and even easier choice. The price is a bit steep, but consider buying 2 pumps, or what ive been considering: the BAP.

The big plus that you get with the BAP is rock solid steady voltage from idle to wot. Thats gonna make tuning even easier. I suppose there's ups n downs to both. People have been dealing with voltage fluctuations and tuning just fine for years and years though. Just thinking out loud, ignore this post haha


Turns out ~500 for a 4303. BAP+450 walbro is ~425 give or take a few bucks.

That's basically been my train of thought, plus the insurance provided by the operating margin for someone looking at 600+ whp, especially in an AWD. Throw an Auto trans and/or a stingy dyno into the equation and the 4303 makes more sense.

The 4303's flow curve doesn't fall off as fast at higher pressure.

It's rebuildable as well.

Also.. prepare your electrical system because increasing voltage increases current. With a linear circuit, the pump amp draw would double if you doubled the voltage.. but the wattage increases by a factor of four!

70psi @ ~13.5V for both shows the 450LPH pulls 16.5A and the 4303 is taking 18.5A at the same voltage.

Step up the voltage 30% from 13.5v to 17.5v and your current jumps to ~21.5A.. and still isn't moving as much fuel add the now more efficient 4303, which performs that work on 15% less current. How much overhead do you think your factory alternator has?

"But Chris, 15% isn't really a big deal, right?"

Look at the power (neglecting resistance from wiring) and it tells the whole story:
17.5VDC & 21.5A = ~375 Watts
13.5VDC & 18.5A = ~250 Watts

That's 50% more power to move less fuel at the same pressure, how does that make sense to anyone? That's a ton more heat being put into the pump than itwas designed for and consequently your fuel, because the fuel is what cools "wet" design pumps.

I guaran-f*cking-tee you none of the proponents of this "450LPH + BAP" idea have put any thought into these or other basics of system design.

That's at only 40psi base + 30psi boost in a system with no pumping losses! Any pressure drop from tank to rail (which your regulator corrects for) makes this situation worse. Up the boost or your base and you have a big load on that circuit, relying on our generally anemic electrical systems.

There's also the fact that greater volume delivery will decrease your IDCs.

So unless you did a complete retrofit and switched to a larger alternator like I did, this will need to be considered for most of you guys.

This is just physics guys. Not subject to opinion. ;-)

Or find out the way Kelvin did, multiple wasted dyno appointments with potentially catastrophic lean conditions.. On a FWD MT, no less. Maybe it was an "ego safe" dyno too, for all we know?

 

[keltalon]

That's basically been my train of thought, plus the insurance provided by the operating margin for someone looking at 600+ whp, especially in an AWD. Throw an Auto trans and/or a stingy dyno into the equation and the 4303 makes more sens.

The 4303's flow curve doesn't fall off as fast at higher pressure.

It's rebuildable as system because increasing voltage increases current. With a linear circuit, the pump amp draw would double if you doubled the voltage.. but the wattage increases by a factor of four!

70psi @ ~13.5V for both shows the 450LPH pulls 16.5A and the 4303 is taking 18.5A at the same voltage.

Step up the voltage 30% from 13.5v to 17.5v and your current jumps to ~21.5A.. and still isn't moving as much fuel add the now more efficient 4303, which performs that work on 15% less current. How much overhead do you think your factory alternator has?

"But Chris, 15% isn't really a big deal, right?"

Look at the power (neglecting resistance from wiring) and it tells the whole story:
17.5VDC & 21.5A = ~375 Watts
13.5VDC & 18.5A = ~250 Watts

That's 50% more power to move less fuel at the same pressure, how does that make sense to anyone? That's a ton more heat being put into the pump than itwas designed for and consequently your fuel, because the fuel is what cools "wet" design pumps.

I guaran-f*cking-tee you none of the proponents of this "450LPH + BAP" idea have put any thought into these or other basics of system design.

That's at only 40psi base + 30psi boost in a system with no pumping losses! Any pressure drop from tank to rail (which your regulator corrects for) makes this situation worse. Up the boost or your base and you have a big load on that circuit, relying on our generally anemic electrical systems.

There's also the fact that greater volume delivery will decrease your IDCs.

So unless you did a complete retrofit and switched to a larger alternator like I did, this will need to be considered for most of you guys.

This is just physics guys. Not subject to opinion. ;-)

Or find out the way Kelvin did, multiple wasted dyno appointments with potentially catastrophic lean conditions.. On a FWD MT, no less. Maybe it was an "ego safe" dyno too, for all we know?

No wasted dynos here my freind but you like always are wrong. Everybody reads these threads and know you have personal issues. Aside from that put your results were your mouth is has been something you never do. You speak and use terms on the forums in a self elevated state of mind when in reality you cant grip that a simple woodworker like myself and many others here who do things thier own way and get results it bothers you deep inside but its all good. People like you motivate and enpower me because while you are speculating about horpower i am posting dyno sheets with results and and are lettings those who read my and your post decide who is wasting dyno sessions. In the mean time thanks for the morning laught it does a body good! Ha ha!

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

No wasted dynos here my freind but you like always are wrong. Everybody reads these threads and know you have personal issues. Aside from that put your results were your mouth is has been something you never do. You speak and use terms on the forums in a self elevated state of mind when in reality you cant grip that a simple woodworker like myself and many others here who do things thier own way and get results it bothers you deep inside but its all good. People like you motivate and enpower me because while you are speculating about horpower i am posting dyno sheets with results and and are lettings those who read my and your post decide who is wasting dyno sessions. In the mean time thanks for the morning laught it does a body good! Ha ha!

"Simple" is right!

If you spent half as much time educating yourself as you do on self-promotion you wouldn't choke on the big scary words that many of use every day as professionals.

I've got some datalogs up on the Link forums. My 1G weighs damn near 3100 with me in it and rips 70-90mph in the low 0.6sec range. It was on Boostin's dyno in December. We know what it made then on less boost/rpm and in a less efficient area of the HX52's map for that matter.

It must burn you up that I have a 1.2x A/R T4 spooling to 30psi by 4700rpm in 3rd at 65% throttle.. on a factory 7.8:1CR slug with a big cam/SMIM combo:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Numbers you wish you could pull off with your "pioneering." I figured it all out on paper first, by the way, with all those fancy words and numbers..

It's pretty obvious whom of the two of us knows what they are doing.

 

[keltalon]

"Simple" is right!

If you spent half as much time educating yourself as you do on self-promotion you wouldn't choke on the big scary words that many of use every day as professionals.

I've got some datalogs up on the Link forums. My 1G weighs damn near 3100 with me in it and rips 70-90mph in the low 0.6sec range.

I have a 1.2x A/R T4 spooling to 30psi by 4700rpm in 3rd at 65% throttle.. on a factory 7.8:1CR slug with a big cam/SMIM combo:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

It's pretty obvious whom of the two of us knows what they are doing.

Data logs? Mr engineer are you kidding! Man you have me rolling on the floor with laughter my stomach is hurting. We want to see the dyno sheet of this well over 700whp of yours! your speculations amount to nothing more than hearsay which is against forum guidelines redeem yourself and post proof of up those well over 700whp statement of yours until then its hearsay!

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Physics and math don't concern themselves with your beliefs or internet personality.

For example: John Doe made 100whp @ 10psi on ABC Dyno, then later raised boost another 5psi and IATs didn't increase linearly.. the charge density increased.. This would tell you that you are operating in a more efficient part of the compressor map, because the process of compression is imparting less heat on the air forced through it. As a result, you will be making more power proportionally per psi boost.

We know the volume (engine displacement) we know the rate (rpm/2) and if you have a dyno sheet you get your VE derived from the torque curve. So we can calculate the Mass flow rate.

These are the principles Speed Density relies on.

Now, you can back that up with fuel flow figures at the same WOT AFR as well as Accel vs. Weight. Because in physics [Force = Mass x Acceleration] which conveniently is the principle dynamometers rely on.

With fuel and oxygen we can calculate heat and use TE to figure out your cylinder pressures, use the rotating assembly geometry to calculate torque (instantaneous force). From there we use the engine speed we got that torque measurement to calculate horsepower, which is derived from torque over time.

Now, getting back on topic.. your 450LPH + BAP will take 50% more power to flow less fuel @ 70psi than the 4303. Putting more load on your electrical and more heat in your fuel. And it gets worse gor the 450 as pressure goes up.

No hearsay, this is straight math from published figures I posted on page 2. Keep crying.

Maybe it would help if you didn't emotionally invest yourself into these things.

Engineers make the world go 'round, Kelvin. Your welcome.

 

[boost97gst]

LSDSM: I cannot find a place to argue anything you said. Facts are facts.

Still, im curious as to the real world effects of a 40amp BAP. Its gonna really really pound the alternator. And, as wires get hotter, components get hotter, their resistance shoots up. Its a loop. Heat is bad in electronics/wiring.

I am replacing my alternator with a high output during the build. Also, i run one BIG ass battery in the trunk. That can take some of the "shock" momentarily from any surge in draw.
I would recommend running a large battery if you do the BAP(or a 4303 for that matter). It can only help and gives you more wiggle room .

 

[keltalon]

Physics and math don't concern themselves with your beliefs or internet personality.

For example: John Doe made 100whp @ 10psi on ABC Dyno, then later raised boost another 5psi and IATs didn't increase linearly.. the charge density increased.. This would tell you that you are operating in a more efficient part of the compressor map, because the process of compression is imparting less heat on the air forced through it. As a result, you will be making more power proportionally per psi boost.

We know the volume (engine displacement) we know the rate (rpm/2) and if you have a dyno sheet you get your VE derived from the torque curve. So we can calculate the Mass flow rate.

These are the principles Speed Density relies on.

Now, you can back that up with fuel flow figures at the same WOT AFR as well as Accel vs. Weight. Because in physics [Force = Mass x Acceleration] which conveniently is the principle dynamometers rely on.

With fuel and oxygen we can calculate heat and use TE to figure out your cylinder pressures, use the rotating assembly geometry to calculate torque (instantaneous force). From there we use the engine speed we got that torque measurement to calculate horsepower, which is derived from torque over time.

Now, getting back on topic.. your 450LPH + BAP will take 50% more power to flow less fuel @ 70psi than the 4303. Putting more load on your electrical and more heat in your fuel. And it gets worse gor the 450 as pressure goes up.

No hearsay, this is straight math from published figures I posted on page 2. Keep crying.

Maybe it would help if you didn't emotionally invest yourself into these things.

Engineers make the world go 'round, Kelvin. Your welcome.

Again no matter what big sounded words you use you are speading hearsay and bench racing on the forums you have no proof to back up your mathmatics on your car. Total violation of forum policies! Post up or shut up.........!

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

It's so simple a woodworker can do it. Seriously, I don't think you're lacking the ability, and have said so in the past. You're letting something YOU turned into a personal grudge however many months back blind you and willfully ignore the mechanics of these things.

I'm not breaking these simple concepts down for you specifically. So believe what you want, but I will correct your mistakes on technical topics for the folks who are seeking help or stumble through in future searches.

I have formal education (including lab time), on the job training and years of experience with this stuff. Take the time to learn it on your own and you'll see this stuff is actually pretty basic.

Largely can be done with algebra, no calculus for the most part. The concepts are no more difficult than HS Physics.

Deal with the content and you'll see. Look at how Current, Voltage and Wattage are related.

It's a direct relationship and extremely relevant to this discussion.

No matter how you twist it, what you're reading here is physical fact.

 

[keltalon]

Look at how Current, Voltage and Wattage are related.

I will be using all three of these when I hook up the Boost-a-Pump. Do not need to know the physics, I paid the engineers at kenny belle to that when I purchased the boost a pump!

It's so simple a woodworker can do it. Seriously, I don't think you're lacking the ability, and have said so in the past. You're letting something YOU turned into a personal grudge however many months back blind you and willfully ignore the mechanics of these things.

I'm not breaking these simple concepts down for you specifically. So believe what you want, but I will correct your mistakes on technical topics for the folks who are seeking help or stumble through in future searches.

I have formal education (including lab time), on the job training and years of experience with this stuff. Take the time to learn it on your own and you'll see this stuff is actually pretty basic.

Largely can be done with algebra, no calculus for the most part. The concepts are no more difficult than HS Physics.

Deal with the content and you'll see. Look at how Current, Voltage and Wattage are related.

It's a direct relationship and extremely relevant to this discussion.

No matter how you twist it, what you're reading here is physical fact.

I have goals just like you , I chose to reach them my way , thus far no dissapointment. If how I do things for me work and can be respected then its all good!

 

[keltalon]

"Simple" is right!

If you spent half as much time educating yourself as you do on self-promotion you wouldn't choke on the big scary words that many of use every day as professionals.

I've got some datalogs up on the Link forums. My 1G weighs damn near 3100 with me in it and rips 70-90mph in the low 0.6sec range. It was on Boostin's dyno in December. We know what it made then on less boost/rpm and in a less efficient area of the HX52's map for that matter.

It must burn you up that I have a 1.2x A/R T4 spooling to 30psi by 4700rpm in 3rd at 65% throttle.. on a factory 7.8:1CR slug with a big cam/SMIM combo:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Numbers you wish you could pull off with your "pioneering." I figured it all out on paper first, by the way, with all those fancy words and numbers..

It's pretty obvious whom of the two of us knows what they are doing.

Landspeed I will post this pre kenne belle bost a pump log for your review and the review of all whom you want determine who know what they are doing with these dsm , me simple cabinet maker or your the engineer. why don't you post a log that those who will be judging , cam examine. Here is my log at 35 psi with the 6266 and the fic 2150s. the car is insane. once I get the boost a pump on the car maybe I can turn up the boost. I headed spoolin dubb recommendation of checking my ground for an issue and yep there was one and its know fixed the 450 is doing what its suppose to, deliver fuel!

 

[boost97gst]

I must say, i do get a kick out of you two. Kel, LS knows quite a bit and if you look at it, it cant really be refuted(refutiaded, as a certain potential VP once said haha), its kind of ya know, science.
That said, i still say that when you add that BAP you WILL hit over 700whp. So, both of you can be happy. However, i gotta agree and if i had listened and learned before you would see my car not with a 450 but an inline 4303. It does make more sense and its even easier to install and potentially has less restrictions/less fab work actually.

Kel, not a guy on this site doesnt really enjoy you and we all hope you hit the mark! You keep riling up LSDSM and we got ourselves a damn fine site

I'll be right there with you 2 come this fall i hope. except awd/auto so i wont be layin down numbers like y'all but i sure will be able to cut a fast 0-60 ha!

 

[keltalon]

I must say, i do get a kick out of you two. Kel, LS knows quite a bit and if you look at it, it cant really be refuted(refutiaded, as a certain potential VP once said haha), its kind of ya know, science.
That said, i still say that when you add that BAP you WILL hit over 700whp. So, both of you can be happy. However, i gotta agree and if i had listened and learned before you would see my car not with a 450 but an inline 4303. It does make more sense and its even easier to install and potentially has less restrictions/less fab work actually.

Kel, not a guy on this site doesnt really enjoy you and we all hope you hit the mark! You keep riling up LSDSM and we got ourselves a damn fine site

I'll be right there with you 2 come this fall i hope. except awd/auto so i wont be layin down numbers like y'all but i sure will be able to cut a fast 0-60 ha!

boosted yeah i love debating with landspeed and i think the forum love it as well but one thing for sure, before its said and done he will see that his way is not the only way to make power in fact I like to see him make some real power with his way!! the log I posted is evidence that you can make power without all the big words. I

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

'Nuff said^

I'm going to need a built short block before going much beyond where she's sitting now on power.

To recap in case anyone else had managed to "miss the forest for the trees" .. it's the lack of safety margin and room to grow on a 450 at this power level that's got me involved in this discussion.

You want to hit your target and still have 20% capacity left in your fuel system. When your maxed on pump and have to stretch it out on voltage you have no overhead and are taxing all components in that system.

 

[keltalon]

'Nuff said^

I'm going to need a built short block before going much beyond where she's sitting now on power.

To recap in case anyone else had managed to "miss the forest for the trees" .. it's the lack of safety margin and room to grow on a 450 at this power level that's got me involved in this discussion.

You want to hit your target and still have 20% capacity left in your fuel system. When your maxed on pump and have to stretch it out on voltage you have no overhead and are taxing all components in that system.

mouth mouth mouth! yeah yeah yeah!! ha ha! There is no such thing as a safety margin with a fuel pump it runs wide open at what ever voltage is put to it. If you put 12v on it it runs wide open 100% of 12 volts and the same is true if you put 15v on it! It does what it does at it full capacity all the time at any voltage!

 

[keltalon]

Landspeed post a log that we can examine if you don't mind!