Ignition timing marks on 2G way off?

[Mikernet]

Hi,

Perhaps this should go in the newbie forum, not sure.

I wanted to check the timing on the car, so I grounded the base timing terminal and tried checking with a timing light.

The mark on the crank pulley looks around 180* off. I JUST replaced the crank pulley because the previous one was squeeling, so I couldn't rely on the timing marks there. After putting the new one on (and yes the alignment hole is set on the pin), the timing marks are way off.

What could this mean??

Thanks,

--Mike

 

[draculia]

You sure you're pulling from #1 plug wire?

 

[Mikernet]

Yes I'm sure but I also tried all the other wires "just in case" and the timing mark was always oppsite of where the reference marks are (ie. if you're looking at the pulley like a clock the timing mark was between 3 and 5 o'clock instead of like 10 or 11 o'clock).

 

[rstchris]

If you are sure the timing isn't like 60* base or some crazy thing like that I would say the timing light $h!t the bed. It's an OE pulley? OE timing cover?

 

[Mikernet]

Well, I'm running 87 octane and not getting an engine light, so I assume base timing isn't like 60* or something. It's a stock CAS, so I don't even think you can adjust it.

The timing light is fine, I just timed a first gen GM V8 engine with it.

Could a backwards CAS install cause this? Incorrect cam sprocket install maybe?

I got the car this way, so I don't know what the previous owner butchered. The car runs "fine" (i.e. doesn't stall or anything), but it feels really underpowered/sluggish compared to the 1G I had before, so I'm pretty sure SOMETHING isn't right.

EDIT: I don't know if this is normal, but when I ground the base timing terminal, the engine runs at like maybe 300 or 400 rpm, and the engine light comes on. It otherwise runs fine, idling at 750 rpm and no engine light whatsoever.

 

[MIdsm]

The harmonic balancer may have separated. Have you physically verified that the engine is at TDC and that the mark on the pulley lines up with "T" on the timing belt cover? I think you ought to remove the spark plugs, grab a really long screwdriver or a socket extension and see if the engine is anywhere close to TDC on cyl #1 when the pulley mark lines up with "T" on the timing belt cover.

Good luck.

 

[Mikernet]

As I said, the harmonic balancer was squeeling so I JUST replaced it. Like, I replaced it, fired up the engine, and started checking the timing right after.

EDIT: I'll check TDC when the pulley mark lines up with the T tonight, but what does it mean if it doesnt (which I'm pretty sure will be the case)?

 

[Zack Huffman]

When you replaced the damper you didn't remove the locating dowel from the crank sprocket did you?

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[Mikernet]

When you say "locating dowel," I assume you mean that little nub that aligns the balancer? That's what I meant when I said "yes the alignment hole is set on the pin." (sometimes I lack the technical terms

 

[Zack Huffman]

Not really any technical terms, just my wording. I must have missed that tidbit you posted I guess or maybe I misunderstood it.

I think it's not aligning because the CAS is 180 degrees out. The wasted spark ignition is keeping things running well enough though, do you ever have sputtering or misfires under boost? Do all your mechanical timing marks align? Which CAS are you using, -the stock 2Ga under the intake cam sprocket?

P.S. You should fill out your profile.

 

[Mikernet]

I didn't get a chance to look at things yesterday but I'll try to check everything you mentioned later today.

I don't know what you want me to fill in the profile - it is filled in! There are no mods besides what is listed (i.e. 14b turbo). I believe it is the stock CAS. It doesn't sputter or misfire, the car just feels sluggish in general.

I'm going into a DSM shop shortly to get a custom turboback exhaust made for this car, so perhaps I'll just have them look at it if we can't figure this out.

 

[Zack Huffman]

I do see 14b listed under the timeslip info in your profile.

When you use the timing light inductor on cylinder 2 or 3's plug wire, does the timing light show the mark correctly? The 4G cranks are single plane, #1 and #4 are TDC at the same time as well as #2 and #3 are at the same time, and since DSMs use a wasted spark ignition the timing light should flash the same on every revolution of the crank for either pair of cylinders that use the same coil. If #1 shows 180 degrees off, #2 or 3 should be showing dead on.

 

[Mikernet]

The timing mark was always between 3 and 5 o'clock on the pulley for all 4 wires. The T on the timing cover is at like 10 or 11 o'clock.

Wierd eh?

 

[Zack Huffman]

Well, as long as your timing light is not adjustable, and you're grounding the 2Ga timing adjust connector, I think it's safe to say something is wrong with either the CAS or CPS if the spark shows that much retard. No wonder it runs poorly. Do you have a logger?

 

[rstchris]

Realisticly speaking, stock 2g's are turds on the stock timing map. The 1g had a more agressive timing map and you could easily set the base to 7-8* for even more pep so if that's what you are comparing this to i'n not surprised it feels slugish. Like stated ^^^ take a log and see whats going on, chances are it's normal cause you can't manually change timing on a 2g and if it idles smooth then it can't be far off. Too much timing at idle and it'll pop, not enough it won't want to come up off idle.