Ignition timing

[XiKeiyaZI]

Those are just machining marks from when they are individually balanced. They will all vary some.

-Soaks in information-

Thanks Cal. I'll see if I can get this thing lined out today after work and will post up results tomorrow when I get back here.

If anyone else has any ideas, I'll be here all day so feel free to offer opinions.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

To clarify that a little...

Under normal conditions, the ECU constantly adjusts the timing (and ICS) at idle to maintain a steady RPM. It uses timing to instantly provide more or less torque as loads change, and you will normally see it fluctuating between 7-12 degrees or so, depending on what the mechanical base timing and the ECU's timing maps are set to.

When you ground the diagnostic connector, you are simply telling the ECU to not make any adjustments to the timing. So what you will see on the timing light in this case is whatever the timing is mechanically set at... which may be 5* BTDC or any other value.

So the proper way to set the timing is to take the ECU out of the loop, set the base (mechanical) timing to 5* BTDC, and then re-enable the ECU timing control so that it can adjust the timing (torque) as needed to maintain a steady idle.

Thanks Craig! I don't know everything but I do know how to set the timing and the basics behind how/why it works.

When I did it.. I made sure the Cam Gears were properly lined up. Dowel pins on top, timing marks lined up with the head via a straight edge. Made sure Oil Pump sprocket was in phase. Replaced Balance Shaft belt, timing mark lined up. Crank Lined up as well. Got the entire assembly back together and rotated 6 times. All timing marks lined up perfectly. What could I have forgotten?

XikeiyaZI, you didn't mention checking the tension after rotating the assembly 6 times. How was the gap at the hydraulic tensioner? If it was too lose then it could have jumped.

 

[rstchris]

If the T belt jumps 1 tooth you will notice a rough idle and cruise, 2 teeth it will run like absolute a$$ and 3 teeth will feel like it runs on 1cyl if at all. You say it has a slight miss so the T belt is not off more than a tooth and that won't put the ignition timing mark 90* out. What you can do for now just to get ignition timing right is set the crank (timing belt pulley) to tdc then install the acc pulley (harmonic) and mark it where the "0" on the plastic cover meets the pulley and then set the timing from that. Then if all runs good, replace the pulley.

 

[ramsack]

What you can do for now just to get ignition timing right is set the crank (timing belt pulley) to tdc then install the acc pulley (harmonic) and mark it where the "0" on the plastic cover meets the pulley and then set the timing from that. Then if all runs good, replace the pulley.

I personally wouldn't do that. I would use a tdc gauge on the piston to tell where true tdc is. The mark on the crank sprocket is just for a general line up for doing mechanical timing, not very accurate down to the degree.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

If the T belt jumps 1 tooth you will notice a rough idle and cruise, 2 teeth it will run like absolute a$$ and 3 teeth will feel like it runs on 1cyl if at all. You say it has a slight miss so the T belt is not off more than a tooth and that won't put the ignition timing mark 90* out. What you can do for now just to get ignition timing right is set the crank (timing belt pulley) to tdc then install the acc pulley (harmonic) and mark it where the "0" on the plastic cover meets the pulley and then set the timing from that. Then if all runs good, replace the pulley.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying here. I'll give it a shot when I get home.

As for the tensioner... >>... Well.. that thing scares me to say the least.

NOTE : I'm currently doing a Database upgrade. Excuse me if I tend to trail of and not make sense for about 20 minutes.

I also just noticed the picture above about the CAS. $10 says that mine was installed incorrectly. One of my CAS that I'm giving away came in this car when I got it. This signifies that the previous ownder had the CAS off at one point in time. I almost BET they installed it a 180* out. Would THAT be causing this issue?

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

As for the tensioner... >>... Well.. that thing scares me to say the least.

How did you adjust the tensioner pulley when you installed the timing belt? It is very important, you can't just skip that step.

 

[ramsack]

if it is about 90 degrees out, maybe the dowel in the crank sprocket is missing and the crank pulley is just installed 90 degrees off?

 

[Calan]

if it is about 90 degrees out, maybe the dowel in the crank sprocket is missing and the crank pulley is just installed 90 degrees off?

I wondered about that too, since from what he described it does sound almost exactly 90* out. But I figured the missing dowel pin would be obvious.

*********

rstchris makes a good point up there ^^^, but I wouldn't run the motor to check it. An easy way to check if the balancer spun is to see where the mark on it's outer rim is in relation to the crank pulley. You could just rotate the motor to TDC using a socket on the crank bolt and a screwdriver in the #1 spark plug hole, while aligning the cam gears. If everything lines up, see where the balancer mark is. If it isn't close to the TDC mark on the cover, there's no need to even start the car....just go ahead and replace the balancer.

*********

I don't think your current CAS is 180* out, but it could be flaky. I think the car would not start, or would run much worse than you described if it was 180* out.

I'm leaning more and more towards the balancer being spun or somehow bolted up wrong, or something wrong with the CAS itself.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Alright, I have a second to breath and soak all of this in.

I know the dowel pin is there, but I suppose the outter ring could have spun making it entirely too difficult to time. I'll get everything lined up today and see how close the Timing mark is -... Wait. Wait wait WAIT.

The timing makr on my car when aligning the crank is a V shaped notch. The Timing mark on the block is at the top right near the Oil-Pump Sprocket. The Timing Mark on my T-Belt cover is up near my Water Pump. I'm timing from the timing mark? Wtf.. If it were all lined up... the timing mark on the pully would be towards the Oil-Pump Sprocket... correct?

I'm officialy mind-phucked here. Can someone draw this in Crayon for me? The car Runs and Idles fine, so it hasn't jumped a tooth.. it just misses like the ignition timing is off, like it is missing a single fire every so often. It's not like this thing cruises down the road backfiring and bucking.

@__@

I don't think your current CAS is 180* out, but it could be bad. I'm leaning more and more towards the balancer being spun or somehow bolted up wrong though.

I don't think it's spun... =/ It's been the same since I marked it, and tried to time it. I'll certainly check though.

Also.. xD It's bolted on right, I swear. The Dowel pin is there and it can't be bolted down without that being in line.

 

[ramsack]

or a previous owner could have lost the dowel and put it in another hole. it is probably just a slipped damper.

 

[gofer]

You might check the connector on the CAS itself if its not spun 180* out like Craig mentioned. I did a head swap and my car was having similar problems after I got it back out on the road I was seeing small misfires going into boost, timing was getting pulled, etc. I found a hairline crack on the CAS itself and everytime I'd give it some gas it would start misfiring a bit because the connection... Just something else you can eliminate from the equation with a quick visual check.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

You might check the connector on the CAS itself if its not spun 180* out like Craig mentioned. I did a head swap and my car was having similar problems after I got it back out on the road I was seeing small misfires going into boost, timing was getting pulled, etc. I found a hairline crack on the CAS itself and everytime I'd give it some gas it would start misfiring a bit because the connection... Just something else you can eliminate from the equation with a quick visual check.

Good call, that's exactly what's going on.

All I can do, for now, is to get home after work and check this crap out. I'll make sure to update.

+1 to everyone. God do I love this forum.

 

[Calan]

The timing makr on my car when aligning the crank is a V shaped notch. The Timing mark on the block is at the top right near the Oil-Pump Sprocket. The Timing Mark on my T-Belt cover is up near my Water Pump. I'm timing from the timing mark? Wtf.. If it were all lined up... the timing mark on the pully would be towards the Oil-Pump Sprocket... correct?

Not sure what you are asking here, but...

The "V" mark on the crank sprocket is at about 2:00, and the oil pump sprocket points to about 11:00. These are the ones visible with the cover off.

The harmonic balancer (outside the cover) should point to about 11:00 and line up with the mark on the cover.

Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Not sure what you are asking here, but...

The "V" mark on the crank sprocket is at about 2:00, and the oil pump sprocket points to about 11:00. These are the ones visible with the cover off.

The harmonic balancer (outside the cover) should point to about 11:00 and line up with the mark on the cover.

Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

Mine is a Early 90's model. This is how my Timing marks are.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[Calan]

Yep... crank sprocket pointer at 2:00, oil pump pointer at 11:00.

BTW - Somewhat unrelated, but do still have your balance shafts?

 

[gofer]

Mine is a Early 90's model. This is how my Timing marks are.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Thats exactly what Craig said... 2:00 on the crank sprocket (the picture you posted) and 11:00 on the Harmonic Balancer (the pulley that bolts to the outside of the crank sprocket).

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Thats exactly what Craig said... 2:00 on the crank sprocket (the picture you posted) and 11:00 on the Harmonic Balancer (the pulley that bolts to the outside of the crank sprocket).

....So I don't mark the Harmonic from the line of the timing mark that you use to set the crank in time? If that's true... that then would prove that my crank is still in time. Lmfao.

Let me attempt to clarify as I continue to look like a dumbass.

When I set my timing light, everytime it flashes, the line that I made on the Pulley is (apparently) in time with the crank timing mark which is in time with the timing mark on the block. Thus being 2:00.

The Timing Mark on my T-Belt Cover is at 11:00. So I am a good ways off.

Was I supposed to put it together in time, mark where 0 is on the small block that's on the timing belt cover in line with pulley, and time like that?

This entire process has me confused. If the timing was really off that far, the car wouldn't run as well as it does, can we agree there? So it's obviously a misunderstanding on my part.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

I just looked at the CAS adjustment thing by RRE... I'm sorry but I don't see the difference between the pictures with one being 180* out and the one that is lined up properly other than Camera angle?

I bet it is 180* out too. Since you didn't know about the mark on the CAS there's a 50% chance it was put on 180* out.

 

[Calan]

....So I don't mark the Harmonic from the line of the timing mark that you use to set the crank in time? If that's true... that then would prove that my crank is still in time. Lmfao.

Let me attempt to clarify as I continue to look like a dumbass.

When I set my timing light, everytime it flashes, the line that I made on the Pulley is (apparently) in time with the crank timing mark which is in time with the timing mark on the block. Thus being 2:00.

The Timing Mark on my T-Belt Cover is at 11:00. So I am a good ways off.

Was I supposed to put it together in time, mark where 0 is on the small block that's on the timing belt cover in line with pulley, and time like that?

This entire process has me confused. If the timing was really off that far, the car wouldn't run as well as it does, can we agree there? So it's obviously a misunderstanding on my part.

Wait... you had to MAKE a line on the balancer?

If you did, and marked it in line with the crank sprocket...there's your problem. The balancer should have a small notch in the outer edge (originally with some white paint on it). That line does NOT line up with the "v" groove on the crank sprocket. It lines up with the timing cover TDC mark when the crank sprocket lines up with the arrow on the front cover.

To clarify, the crank sprocket under the cover (with the t-belt going around it) should point to about 2:00, while the mark on the harmonic balancer outside the cover should point to the timing cover mark, at about 11:00.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

I fvcking knew it! I knew it was something stupid that I did!

Unfortunantly I couldn't find a notch taken out or any obvious notch that would show where the timing is.

Good god I can be dumb sometimes.

Here's a little rule of thumb - I can program a massive DB, but CANNOT make the gap jump at the end of the last level in MegaMan X5

If it's hard as hell, I can do it simple. If it's super simple...It's the hardest fvcking thing in the world.

Still gonna check the CAS though.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Ahh. Yeah there should be a small v notch cut into the outer edge of the crank pulley. The white is most likly gone so repaint it with some white out or someting to make it easier to see with the timing light. Glad to see that this is solved.

 

[Calan]

I fvcking knew it! I knew it was something stupid that I did!

Unfortunantly I couldn't find a notch taken out or any obvious notch that would show where the timing is.

Good god I can be dumb sometimes.

Here's a little rule of thumb - I can program a massive DB, but CANNOT make the gap jump at the end of the last level in MegaMan X5

If it's hard as hell, I can do it simple. If it's super simple...It's the hardest fvcking thing in the world.

Still gonna check the CAS though.

Sometimes the simplest things are the hardest to find.

With the balancer marked wrong, I'm betting your CAS is just fine. If it was 180* out, you'd have bigger issues than you see. And if the motor had of jumped time enough to have the mark 90* off, you'd have bent valves and lots of clanking going on.

That mark on the balancer is really just a small nick in the outer lip. Once you find it, hit it with some white out or paint and you should be good to go.

***

Extrapolating backwards here, it sounds like your timing is pretty close...if you are seeing the "wrong" balancer mark somewhat in line with the underlying crank pulley.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Appreciate guys. xD I love each and every one of you.

Quick inquirie though.

The Harmonic pulls 2 belts. There are, of course, three lips. The outter lip, the Middle, and the Inner.

Which has the Notch out of it?

 

[gofer]

The middle.

 

[Calan]

The very outer lip of the outer belt groove...towards the outside of the car (IIRC).

Unless someone else has made their own marks on it.