Ideal surge tank design for DSM road racing

[underradar92]

Otherwise maybe I just have to move the battery to the trunk and put these thing in its place.

Or mount the tank in a small flame safe enclosure in the rear where you plan to put the battery and not have a 4"x9" can of hot fuel under your hood.

Edit: I just remembered, 2g's have mid mounted fuel tanks so doing my idea would be unnecessarily convoluted.

Carry on.

 

[Ludachris]

Stopped by the shop that's swapping in my new engine and took a look around my empty engine bay. No way this will fit vertically above my JMF battery in its lowered position. Did notice lots of free space behind the block and so this might fit down there over the subframe. However I'm not keen on this as it makes maintenance on it difficult. I may look at mounting my battery even lower than the JMF tray sits, as I thnk there's still a bit more room below it to the subframe. Otherwise maybe I just have to move the battery to the trunk and put these thing in its place.

Why not find a mounting location under the car next to the fuel tank? Seems like a safe spot and would help with the overall balance of the car - I've been trying to pull anything I can out of the engine bay so as to work towards getting closer to a 50/50 weight split. For road course and autocross, seems like everyone should want to do this. Why try so hard to fit it under the hood?

 

[TSiAWD666]

Why not find a mounting location under the car next to the fuel tank? Seems like a safe spot and would help with the overall balance of the car - I've been trying to pull anything I can out of the engine bay so as to work towards getting closer to a 50/50 weight split. For road course and autocross, seems like everyone should want to do this. Why try so hard to fit it under the hood?

First I should say I've only mused over this project, and so my research has been cursory at best.

I agree some place towards the rear would be better for balance. Isn't around the fuel tank on the 2g pretty packed, with minimal free space for a container like this? I guess it might fit if it went horizontally, but at the moment I can't visualize a location for it vertically. I just don't think it's as functional as I'd like mounted horizontally as it limits your slosh protection too much.

The immediate thought assuming that there's no space under the car vertically was to mount in the trunk. I'm avoiding that now because I don't want to firewall off my trunk. My car eventually will be track only, but for now, I'm not ready to firewall off my trunk. Someone hinted at making some sort of surround for just the surge tank, and to be honest I didn't consider that. Something to think about

So that left me with the engine bay and I thought "hey, I just installed a small battery and it's mounted a lot lower. I wonder if it would fit there!"

I'm basically just trying to get a surge tank functioning for short term without drastic remodeling of my car. It's not ideal for weight distribution, no, but does make my life easier short term.

I think the rest of you who are willing to spend a bit more time/money on a final solution and don't mind losing your trunk should pursue these other solutions. Don't let my restrictions impact this thread any further Since I won't be putting this in until after Drew's body kit is on the car next month and with that will be slicing out the spare tire well under the trunk, I may end up having plenty of room for this thing then and completely change the plan.

 

[TSiAWD666]

Just realized this surge tank is aluminum, albeit anodized. That might be an issue for folks running e85. Figured I'd point that out.

I'll have the unit in a few days and will post pictures.

 

[Ludachris]

Just realized this surge tank is aluminum, albeit anodized. That might be an issue for folks running e85. Figured I'd point that out.

I'll have the unit in a few days and will post pictures.

AMS doesn't seem to think it's a big deal. And we've got some guys out here running raw aluminum fuel rails without any long term issues. I don't know, I guess it's a peace of mind thing for some, but I'd be fine running it.

 

[greengoblin]

I've been reading a bit about swirl pot design.

These are like the tanks Carroll Smith talks about in his books.

Here :

http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/impala/1012/cars/tech/swirl/swirlfaq.html

SBD Motorsport Fuel filters, fuel swirl pot

 

[TSiAWD666]

Here's what I received from 034 Motorsports. I ordered the surge tank, -6an fittings, and the mounting brackets.

They goofed and shorted me a two crush washers and AN fitting. They'll be sending those and say it's because of it being such a new product. I'm in no rush thankfully but if you're going to order one I'd not count on it having everything when it arrives.

I'll assemble it once the missing pieces arrive. With 90-deg AN fittings on top/bottom it's gonna be a decent height at probably 11".

 

[DSMraver]

Here's my surge-tank setup, on my 97 Spyder AWD:

The intank pump is a Walbro 255, and is just used as a lift pump. 90* bulkheads are used to get the lines in-out of the trunk area, and all Aeroquip Socketless lines were used. The main pump is an Aeromotive Pro Series pump (same as Mike Reichen's Evo!), feeding to the rail and back using -8 and -6 Socketless hose, respectively. All of the fittings are black anodized, and the hose ends are Mr. Gasket's "Shadow Series" grey/black.

The surge tank, pump, and fuel pump controller are mounted to a mounting plate made of a Carbon Fiber/Aluminum plate sandwich, mounted to the car using Aeromotive vibration mounts.

ECMlink controls the pump controller, switching it to high under heavy load, as programmed in the ECU.

None of the fuel setup is exposed if you're just casually looking the car over, and with the trunk floor and convertible trunk's vertical "cover" in place, the car looks stock back there.

Shots during the build:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Wiring from the interior side of the trunk:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Completed (short of the one line):

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I need to take some better pictures now that the car is done and driving, it came out pretty good I think!

 

[dragonov_elite]

That is awesome ^^^^. The more i keep seeing these kinds of projects coming out the more i want to participate in Road course racing. Lets see some more ideas guys and gals.

 

[gixxerdrew]

Hey John, one thing is that Aeromotive controller, I used to run one and it gets pretty toasty, I mounted it to a bulkhead so it had something to transfer heat to. It may not be an issue, but just one thing I thought of with the carbon plate...

 

[Flash]

Hey John, one thing is that Aeromotive controller, I used to run one and it gets pretty toasty, I mounted it to a bulkhead so it had something to transfer heat to. It may not be an issue, but just one thing I thought of with the carbon plate...

Or wire up a computer fan or a brake duct fan from Pegasus to blow on it.

 

[DSMraver]

Hey John, one thing is that Aeromotive controller, I used to run one and it gets pretty toasty, I mounted it to a bulkhead so it had something to transfer heat to. It may not be an issue, but just one thing I thought of with the carbon plate...

Thanks for the heads up Drew, I'll make sure to keep an eye on it! The bottom 3/4 of the plate is aluminum, I might make up a copper heat-sink to sandwich between the controller and the carbon, if it's an issue.

I'm actually running the pump on low speed full time right now, haven't seen a need for the higher speed yet at 10psi.

I'm debating switching to a smaller pump like an 044, as the Pro Series is a *bit* obnoxious.

 

[TSiAWD666]

I'm not sure how useful this will be to anyone but I installed my 034 Motorsports surge tank with internal Bosch 044 fuel pump into my car over the past few days. It was quite an undertaking, even requiring me to order a bunch more fittings and lose a day on the project waiting for those parts. I stupidly never took a single picture of the assembled surge tank off the car, but if you want to see the tank hop over to 034motorsport.com and look at their pictures because it's the same thing Just imagine AN fittings and hoses coming out of it. I say this probably isn't all that useful because I have no test data (having JUST finished this) on the efficacy and it's all pretty straightforward as far as surge tanks go.

I have it mounted on a fabricated bracket underneath my battery. My battery is in a custom battery box (it's a tiny Odyssey PC680) mounted in the back corner of the engine bay along the firewall, making for room below for the surge tank. The bracket is mounted on the passenger strut tower sheet metal, is cylindrical covering half the cylindrical surge tank with a small tab on the bottom side for vertical support, and the surge tank is held in place with large t-bolt clamps.

Nothing really out of the norm here...
- DW300 in-tank pump
- internal Bosch 044 fuel pump.
- 1 liter capacity.
- -6AN braided nylon (my god this stuff is so much easier to use than stainless steel) lines for all feed and return lines, except right before the return to the stock fuel tank where I dropped to -4AN so I could just clamp the -4AN line over the stock return hard line. Did this so I didn't have to figure out a way to make a bulkhead fitting work with the stock siphon.
- Used an M14x1.5" to -6AN line on the stock fuel sender line output.
- Fuelab 818 filter.
- Fuel input to the surge tank is on the underside, as is the return from the FPR. I figured this would help make sure the bottom of the surge tank has fuel as much as possible and to minimize aeration that might happen if spraying down from the top (the surge tank only has ports on top and bottom). I completely used my "common sense" engineering here and have no idea if this was really a good or bad idea...
- Output (to fuel rail) and overflow (return to tank) lines are on the top side.
- Power ground right off the main battery terminals, with a 30amp inline fuse on the power line.
- Mounted my bosch 30amp relay on my cruise control box for now. Taped it up for weather protection because I had no idea what else to do

I'm sure most will ask "why the hell did you mount it up front?" Basically, I thought I was simplifying my life from having to firewall off a section of my trunk to do this. In hindsight I'd tell anyone just put this shit in your trunk Better for weight balance and arguably better for safety. Firewall a corner off, or have a fabricator do it. Really just makes more sense putting it back there... but hey at least people can now see this option.

The thing started up first try (I primed the system first using ecmlink to turn on the fuel pumps) and I have no leaks somehow It's actually noticeably loud and I can hear it in cabin. No biggy since my car's pretty much turning into a track car but might be of interest to others.

Feel free to ask any questions!

I would like to ask others that have done similar things how the hell do you run -6 or -8 AN lines up above the subframe where the stock fuel lines are? I couldn't figure out for the life of me how to do that without pulling down the subframe, and even then I wasn't sure there would be room unless I pulled the hard fuel lines first. I swear that's the usual route and it was my plan until I actually got under the car and stared up there... couldn't see any way to shove lines in there. I ended up going closer towards the passenger side of the car on the rear corner of the subframe.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I made my own surge tank and installed it last week. It's behind the driver side rear wheel, next to my 1g AWD DSM tank.

I picked up a lift pump for an 87 Ford pickup, (they ran two tanks and three pumps) and mounted it inside my DSM tank. Then I moved my Walbro 255 HP inside the surge tank.

My low fuel lamp came on 50 miles ago, and the gauge hit the stop pin about 12 miles ago, but I can still do a full throttle left turn powerslide without losing fuel pressue.

Everything including the Airtex pump ($40), 3.5" steel exhaust pipe (paid way too much for two 6" sections), SS braided hose, and -AN6 fittings to do the whole job, costed about $190 total. I probably could have saved quite a bit if I had bought the parts online.

 

[arrowhead]

I made my own surge tank and installed it last week. It's behind the driver side rear wheel, next to my 1g AWD DSM tank.

I picked up a lift pump for an 87 Ford pickup, (they ran two tanks and three pumps) and mounted it inside my DSM tank. Then I moved my Walbro 255 HP inside the surge tank.

My low fuel lamp came on 50 miles ago, and the gauge hit the stop pin about 12 miles ago, but I can still do a full throttle left turn powerslide without losing fuel pressue.

Everything including the Airtex pump ($40), 3.5" steel exhaust pipe (paid way too much for two 6" sections), SS braided hose, and -AN6 fittings to do the whole job, costed about $190 total. I probably could have saved quite a bit if I had bought the parts online.

I was also considering the ford pumps since I have a 93 f 150 6cyl with dual tanks
also have a spare fuel pump for the P/U but my system would have to be mounted inside a fuel cell and then to a surge tank.


Any comments anyone?

 

[TSiAWD666]

I can't follow your proposed system. What's in the fuel tank, what's pulling fuel out of the surge tank, etc.?

 

[Ludachris]

At some point here I'm going to install the 034 Motorsports surge tank and will let you guys know how it pans out. Should work well since they've been having success with it on other cars they've built/worked on. I'm going to change my plans a little and try to mount it vertically if I can, underneath the car, up near the rear subframe. It looks like it will be tight but should work.

 

[TSiAWD666]

You going to try the banjo fittings or use standard bends? The standard bends extend the top and bottom a good amount. I was wary of the banjo fittings as I wasn't sure if they affected flow rates enough to matter in the possibly too small -6AN lines.

 

[Ludachris]

You going to try the banjo fittings or use standard bends? The standard bends extend the top and bottom a good amount. I was wary of the banjo fittings as I wasn't sure if they affected flow rates enough to matter in the possibly too small -6AN lines.

I have it ready for AN fittings... or am I misunderstanding?

 

[TSiAWD666]

034 normally sells you adapters to -6AN fittings. They also offer very low profile banjo fittings that are of course 90-deg also with -6AN threads. I don't recall if their website advertises those... I think they brought them up with me when I was asking questions about dimensions and expressed concerns with normal AN bends. I figure you could get the same banjo fittings elsewhere but you'd need to figure out the thread pitch in the surge tank end plates and then figure out where to buy them, but I don't know either.

 

[Jimmer307]

A good friend of mine relocated his battery to the trunk and put his twin pump surge tank in its place. A very clean setup if you ask me. Unfortunately he just blew 2 rods threw his block so I don't have pics, but his setup worked well. He was having issues at WOT the fuel would shift to the back of the tank and starve the pumps. I will get pics up whenever I can.

I also just bought the surge tank listed in post #3 (Autobahn - looks like a clean piece) and will update whenever I get it in. I plan to mount it on the firewall, between where the charcoal canister used to be and where the battery used to be. It may be a while, I plan on running two external Walbro 400lph pumps (they are currently being designed) @ the surge tank, and one walbro 255lph in the stock tank.

 

[KYNgsx]

Just finished my setup today:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

My previous setup had my in tank Walbo 255HP directly feeding my Bosch 044 mounted underneath the car. My location for the new surge tank was mostly determined by where it was easiest to run all the bulkhead fittings through the floor. I also needed to be able to access the fittings from under the car and I wanted to keep the lines in the car short. There was a nice space in front of the tank for the three straight bulkhead fittings, and on the left there is a single 90 degree bulkhead fitting that is a straight shot to the stock return line fitting on the tank.

I used 3/8" aluminum tube with -6AN fittings for all my in car connections to the surge tank. Under the car, a -6AN female to pushlock adapter and short section of rubber hose connects back to the stock return line fitting. The feed from the tank, feed to rail, and return from regulator are all -6AN stainless braided lines.

 

[greengoblin]

I like it. What do the rules say about running the fuel into the hatch of the car? What are you using the car for?

Looks really good.

Kevin

 

[dsmtwins2g]

dont mean to get off topic but goblin hows your build coming?

 

[KYNgsx]

I like it. What do the rules say about running the fuel into the hatch of the car? What are you using the car for?

Looks really good.

Kevin

Thanks. My car is street/strip but not a daily driver. I'm in the process of a complete overhaul so my car is not up and running yet. I still need to double check the rules for this but I will build a little enclosure around it if I have to.