Idea for MIVEC on 2G

[ilikespeeding]

Id like to see if anyone could find some problems with this:

I had an idea for MIVEC that involved the evo 9 head. On the 9, the cam gears are on the drivers right side as opposed to the eclipse's left. This is a pretty easy fix by spinning the head 180 degrees, which would work because the head is symmetrical. This spin creates two problems, timing and studs for the manifolds. You're going to have to switch the intake and exhaust cams as well as cut some studs off and weld some studs on and rethread (map seen below)...not a big deal provided I am correct. Now that you have the head on there..how do you make it work? Mivec is hydraulic and needs oil to operate. This oil is controlled from an oil control valve and a solenoid. So, we're gonna need a feed line just past the oil pump and a return line for oil that dumps before the oil filter and an OEM OCV and solenoid. So, how do we get it to turn on? Any Vtec controller will work for mivec...but what self respecting DSM driver puts anything saying vtec anywhere near their DSM? No one. So lets use a Greddy eManage with RPM harness. The eManage will hook up to the solenoid and allow Mivec tuning as well as full control of fuel, ignition and other goodies from Greddy.


Once being cleared...I might try to use it. Blue lines mean cut off studs and red means new studs.

 

[mavisky]

Dale, we don't need inflammatory posts like that. If you have nothing to add to the conversation other than harassment, take it to another forum.

 

[ericbev]

Why did you ask for our advice/opinions if you werent even going to listen to them?

I already told you (as well as others) that it is impossible to use the MIVEC head on our block and that swapping a whole engine just for its sake it unimagineably impractical in the financial and power departments.

I understand the appeal of doing something different, but spending $3300 dollars for 20hp borders on insanity.

 

[ilikespeeding]

Why did you ask for our advice/opinions if you werent even going to listen to them?

I already told you (as well as others) that it is impossible to use the MIVEC head on our block and that swapping a whole engine just for its sake it unimagineably impractical in the financial and power departments.

I understand the appeal of doing something different, but spending $3300 dollars for 20hp borders on insanity.

I also go thru about 1700 gallons of fuel each year as well to travel 30,000 miles @ 18 mpg. If I did this and increased my gas milage to 25 mpg, then Id only go thru 1200 gallons. Which saves me $1625 @ 3.25 per gallon per year. Plus I think that the port and polish, cams, and oversized valves alone would give me more than 20 hp. One guy I know claims 20 whp or money back for the port and polish alone.

BTW, yes Ive handled heads before and I do know that there is a difference between the intake and exhaust size, shape, and angle. I just underestimated the difference.

Also as for a mivec conversion...Im sure it would be difficult but could be possible. Im gonna find some pics of some 9 heads taken apart and do some studying and get back to you

 

[luvmygst]

I also go thru about 1700 gallons of fuel each year as well to travel 30,000 miles @ 18 mpg. If I did this and increased my gas milage to 25 mpg, then Id only go thru 1200 gallons. Which saves me $1625 @ 3.25 per gallon per year. Plus I think that the port and polish, cams, and oversized valves alone would give me more than 20 hp. One guy I know claims 20 whp or money back for the port and polish alone.

BTW, yes Ive handled heads before and I do know that there is a difference between the intake and exhaust size, shape, and angle. I just underestimated the difference.

IF you undrerstand heads and such then why for opinions and not listen. Bottom line it is possable but I bet its going to cost alot more than $3300. I also doubt that you are going to gain 7-8 mpg. IF you need gas mileage that bad go spend that money on a beater car to drive. I just think that there are alot better ways to gain that little hp. Just my .02

 

[Attack Eagle]

fine... you've been told it won't work by the people who actually know what teh hell we are talking about... (me, mavinsky, and others) now go do it.
If it was as "simple" as you seem to think it is, one of us (or our friends) would already have it on our cars. You might think about just dropping a vtec head on it. Might be less work, after all you are taking the head from a completely different engine anyway...

My prediction: if you ever get it to even bolt up, and start, you are going to be DOWN 40+ hp and 70ft./lbs. torque because of the now oversized exhaust valves and poor head design. sounds like a killer mod for at least 3 thousand dollars and a couple of hundred hours of modding.

Mivec doesn't give you 7 miles per gallon better gas mileage... you could get 25 mpg easily if you figured out what is wrong with it now. (i've pulled down 34 mpg highway before, and pulled down 22 mpg highway, with both o2s failed and 4 passengers and full trunk load of luggage)

I'm now unsubscribing because you are making me get headaches everytime I read your "ideas"

 

[mavisky]

If you're only getting 18mpg right now then something else is very wrong. Hell last year I pulled 22mpg on a tank that included 5 runs at an autox event and mostly city driving.

Fix what's broke before adding super complex if not near impossible things to your list of things to be done.

 

[92 GSR-4]

If I have full control over Mivec, then I could retune for the top end, especially if I through in a new set of cams from turbotrix.

I'll make you a deal. Go buy a set of HKS, FP, or DKS cams, and DSM link. Then send me $1800, the remainder of the money you would spend swapping the EVO head, and we'll call it even. By the way, your welcome!

Also I averaged 36 MPG on my last trip last year when I was running 12's with a 16G...dont ask me how

 

[Spyder1]

I say just go for it....If you got money like that then do it. You guys never know what other mod or idea could come out of doing this. Sure it sounds crazy like that 180 flip but Einstein did sum crazy crap to...and that's how I picture this guy.. But people like Attack Eagle and other insultors just need to keep there comments to their selfs. And noone is forcing Anybody to read this forum....so it's funny to me how attack eagle keeps coming back. Let's give our opinions but don't be jerks about it. I believe this swap can work with time and money keep me posted.....

 

[mavisky]

Sure it sounds crazy like that 180 flip but Einstein did sum crazy crap to...and that's how I picture this guy..

Bwaahahaha. I got news, Einstein would have weighed out the cost to benefit analysis and stuck to getting cams and head work.

 

[Spyder1]

Yea i'm sure you were alive in the early 19th century to personally know Albert and know what he would do in this situation. But till i see ## birth certificate i going to relay on natural history documents. Thanks for your opinion though......

 

[mavisky]

The simple fact that you would type the words " Einstein did sum crazy crap to" (and that should be too, not to) proves your ignorance. To consider the scientific findings of one of the world's most intelligent men "sum crazy crap" is preposterous.

You also type "I believe this swap can work with time and money keep me posted....." yet offer no way for it to work. Noone who's posted in this thread other than you and the thread starter have said it would work.

Now if you were to walk into a place you've never been before, talking about a subject you're not that familiar with personally, and only one other guy in the room out of 30 agress with you, would you not question why you believe your opinion to be the correct one? If you believe this will work I'd love to hear an explanation as to how.

Bottom line is that it would be easier for him to adapt the mivec system onto his current head than to try and get the evo 9 head to work on his block. He may as well be bolting the k20a ivtec head onto his block, it's not much more different than his head than the evo ix head would be.

 

[GVR4592]

He almost had me convinced. I was going to buy a mivec head for my briggs and stratton.

The truth is even if it could be done, what the hell is the point? The beneifts would be very small and not worth the cost. Go to the evo forums and see how many guys are complaining about their mivec. To my knowledge there is only two ecu's that can control the mivec, stock and motec.

I have first hand experience with this sort of thing. My friend swapped a vtec head onto an old school honda block. He he was the first person to do it. It took him about 2 years and thousands of dollars. When it was all done, he just let the car sit in the driveway. I always wondered why he never drove it. Then he took me for a ride in it. It was quick for a naturally aspirated car, but it sure wasn't worth the time and effort.

 

[Attack Eagle]

I say just go for it....If you got money like that then do it. You guys never know what other mod or idea could come out of doing this. Sure it sounds crazy like that 180 flip but Einstein did sum crazy crap to...and that's how I picture this guy..

But people like Attack Eagle and other insultors just need to keep there comments to their selfs. And noone is forcing Anybody to read this forum....so it's funny to me how attack eagle keeps coming back. Let's give our opinions but don't be jerks about it. I believe this swap can work with time and money keep me posted.....

It's funny to me how someone with no experience asks if something is possible, and is told it is not feasable and why is then too dense to agree, drop it, and not look a fool. Instead this person keeps arguing about how nothing else matters except mivec. Never mind port size and shape, valve size, cam profiles, or even the fact that he would be running mivec on the opposite cam from stock when he flipped the head to flow backwards so it wouldn't work then either. . And then newbies with null experience support him and get pissed at the veterans who have already heard a bazillion lame schemes. It's not an opinion when we say NO IT WON'T WORK. And it's not being a jerk to keep pounding it into people's ears until even the densest newbie finally gets it between their ears.

As to why I return maybe because some of us Veterans actually CARE about keeping the not letting misinfo filter into the archives or be rumoured about to other newbies uncorrected. I don't feel I was insulting in the least. I'm simply not gonna say, "geez that sounds like it would work real well", when i KNOW (not guess, not believe) that it won't. I tried subtlety and someone was too dense to get it so I was forced to be VERY blunt. To do otherwise is to lie and give support to something ludicrous. He'd be better off sticking a complete EVO 9 in a Mirage or an Outlander, at least those are physically possible, and have been done in evo8 form. He asked for feedback, and he got it. It's not my fault he doesn't know anything about cylinder heads and he had a bad idea! If he only wanted a pat on the back, he should have asked his honda buddies, and if he didn't want to listen to factual reasons why his idea is not feasable and is going to waste his 10K-20K trying to do it, he should have kept his idea to himself and presented us with a fait accompli, or at least a custom ecu'd setup with a variable cam gear. (that's all Mivec is on the 9).

He should buy an exhaust and get more power over a wider powerband, or up the boost 2 psi, or add meth/water injection, or even go get tuned on the dyno, or add a functional Cyclone intake which does about the same thing as Mivec IRL bottom line. All of these can give as much torque as mivec. Mivec is improving for mid range torque with an aggressive cam. That is all. It's just on the fly cam timing adjustment. It's not magical.


Spyder1: why do YOU post here?. No one cares what you believe. The fact that you only have <10 posts and no rep points is why YOU HAVE to post in newbies... SO how are you contributing to this thread? Your opinion counts the same as your rep points... 0 because it is based on 0. It's just filler like the peanuts in a box of parts. Something else to sift thru before you get to the goods.

IF this was remotely feasible or productive, it wouldn't be someone with 0 experience who doesn't even have an Evo 9 head in hand that would have figured it out. The DSM "gods" from another website I am a proud member of, aka Marco, Martin Musial, John sheppard, David Buschur, Curt Brown, Mike Welch, Ty, etc etc would have already done it just for shifts and giggles to see if it could work and if so what gain it would provide.

 

[Highbooost]

Here this will help our friend. Take a stock 6 bolt block with no head on it and try to flip the head gasket around, tell us how well that works out for you, then post back, that would be your first trial to your idea.

 

[bpestilence]

It shouldn't be that hard to swap MIVEC into a 4G63 by simply using the MIVEC cam sprocket and modifying the cam and cam cover to port oil into the sprocket. It could probably be done with a couple hundred bucks worth of parts.

The MIVEC cam sprocket appears to have the same number of teeth and the same diameter as the DSM head's. Or, better yet, try the same thing with the dual MIVEC sprockets from the 4B11.

http://images.turbomagazine.com/tech/turp_0805_04_z+tomei_4b11+mivec_sprocket.jpg

 

[kewlguy]

I'm not ASE certified (working on it tho) but

if VTEC = VTEC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and MIVEC = MIVEC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

then technically MIVEC = VTEC

both of them just allow the cam to have 2 "profiles".... why not just use the aggressive cam profile all the time?

if you want to save gas just accelerate slow. Or you have the option of weight reduction, or if you're really brave you can try this:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/292786-hydrogen-supplement.html

just my $0.02



edit: just an idea, dunno what you would have to fix but you could try having a plate made with a reverse head deisgn on top and shave the top of the block off at the equavalent of the thickness of the plate. then have it welded to the block. you'd have to make sure the cylinder holes and head line up perfectly. then you could have your exhaust manifold in the back insted of going around the entire engine. dont ask me how to make it fit tho.

and all the words on the valve cover will be upside down

 

[rarson]

both of them just allow the cam to have 2 "profiles".... why not just use the aggressive cam profile all the time?

Driveability, fuel economy, and power at low rpms. Maybe you should read a little bit more about them?

I'm not about to bother with the whole MIVEC idea, but I will mention that the EVO spins clockwise, just like the DSM engine (meaning that you wouldn't have to swap the cams). You'd just have a rear turbo setup like the SRT-4 or a turbocharged K-series.

 

[gsxeclipse97]

(Or you coud just bolt the head on there in the direction it goes, and flip the cam cams and cam gears and weld the other so is looks like a dsm head... and change the timing with dsm link.)

Im all for trying new things also but there is a huge difference in putting a head backwards.. and changing something from auto to manual.. When i started reading this i was thought it was crazy to begin with but, the suggestion of using a 2g head and then putting the mivec on that would be much more cost effective.. and with that extra money it would be much easier for you to find a way. Im not saying not to do it, or to do it; its your money they are just offering a better way to go about it. Here is a start 2g head with evo3 intake manifold. I would start from there and then try to work in the mivec other wise it maybe a long road ahead of you.

 

[95eclipser]

sounds like a unique idea but just like the other guys are saying i feel you would run into problems with the vlaves timing and the mivec coming on just at the right time... even if you use a greddy emange u going to buy the one made for the evo so see problems but good thinking

 

[crimsondragon]

None of you people seem to realize this is a 2 year old thread. I'm sure the Op has moved on from such a ridiculous idea.

 

[ilikespeeding]

Yes I have, but before I let it die, I'd like to set a few things straight for anyone looking into this.

1) There are many ways of controlling mivec/vtec. Any vtec controller will do it with a little modification or GReddy's vManage has Mivec printed on it.

2) Cost to benefit ratio. It would cost thousands of dollars and there's not really a way to pull it off that I know of. However the only thing that makes any sense would be to try to bolt evo head internals into a DSM head. Benefits: Nice low end torque, idle like stock on 280 cams, and pretty much...it's cool to say that you've done it.

3) You cannot bolt the evo head onto a DSM the way it is supposed to go because the timing belt and cam sensor are on the wrong side.

 

[rarson]

3) You cannot bolt the evo head onto a DSM the way it is supposed to go because the timing belt and cam sensor are on the wrong side.

That's not the problem at all. Flip the head around 180 and the cams are already moving in the same direction as the DSM cams. You'd just have to fab up some stuff to put the turbo on the back side of the engine and an intake manifold on the front (like the SRT-4, just like I said above).

If anything, I'd worry about the water passages lining up between the head and the block. That's probably the biggest problem (aside from all the fabrication required to relocate the turbo).

 

[ilikespeeding]

I guess you were unaware that I wasn't addressing you at all when I wrote about reversing the evo head. But you are correct. All you'd have to do is to come up with a custom intake manifold, custom exhaust manifold, o2 housing, downpipe, chargepipes, and intake pipe. That's assuming your manifold doesn't come incontact with the motor mount or fuel setup that's back there. In addition, that's assuming that there's enough room for all of that to clear the firewall when the motor is moving. That would be an intresting noise for sure.

 

[rarson]

Well, I kind of got it from the "bolt it to a DSM block the way it's supposed to be," but I just can't understand why people would want to try and modify either the EVO head or the DSM head to hack it all together when the cams already spin the same way.

There's quite a bit of room behind the engine. Get rid of the A/C compressor and the intake manifold, and you could cram quite a bit back there. But lest anyone think any of this means I'm interested in trying it, I would rather swap the whole EVO engine and drivetrain over before going to that trouble (and I wouldn't even do that when I could just keep modding what came in the car).

 

[ilikespeeding]

Well, I kind of got it from the "bolt it to a DSM block the way it's supposed to be," but I just can't understand why people would want to try and modify either the EVO head or the DSM head to hack it all together when the cams already spin the same way.

There's quite a bit of room behind the engine. Get rid of the A/C compressor and the intake manifold, and you could cram quite a bit back there. But lest anyone think any of this means I'm interested in trying it, I would rather swap the whole EVO engine and drivetrain over before going to that trouble (and I wouldn't even do that when I could just keep modding what came in the car).

You really think it would be easier to make a custom SMIM, exhaust manifold, downpipe, and charge pipes...not to mention fabricate everything else that's not immediatly obvious than to try to just swap internals. The evo and dsm head cores look pretty similar. Hell, this might be an idea worth looking at in the future. It wouldn't be easy that's for sure.

This would definately be a pretty cool idea in conjection with the cyclone manifold. Not so much for performance, but as a tribute to 90s japanese fuel technology.