Idea for MIVEC on 2G

[ilikespeeding]

Id like to see if anyone could find some problems with this:

I had an idea for MIVEC that involved the evo 9 head. On the 9, the cam gears are on the drivers right side as opposed to the eclipse's left. This is a pretty easy fix by spinning the head 180 degrees, which would work because the head is symmetrical. This spin creates two problems, timing and studs for the manifolds. You're going to have to switch the intake and exhaust cams as well as cut some studs off and weld some studs on and rethread (map seen below)...not a big deal provided I am correct. Now that you have the head on there..how do you make it work? Mivec is hydraulic and needs oil to operate. This oil is controlled from an oil control valve and a solenoid. So, we're gonna need a feed line just past the oil pump and a return line for oil that dumps before the oil filter and an OEM OCV and solenoid. So, how do we get it to turn on? Any Vtec controller will work for mivec...but what self respecting DSM driver puts anything saying vtec anywhere near their DSM? No one. So lets use a Greddy eManage with RPM harness. The eManage will hook up to the solenoid and allow Mivec tuning as well as full control of fuel, ignition and other goodies from Greddy.


Once being cleared...I might try to use it. Blue lines mean cut off studs and red means new studs.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

There are a few flaws with your theory.

First, the cam gears on 2G (and 1G) Eclipses are on the driver's side, not the passenger's side.

Furthermore, the head is not perfectly symmetrical. The timing for the exhaust and intake valves is different, thus you would need some sort of compensation for that if you were to rotate the head (although, I've already said that you wouldn't need to in the first place).

Finally, I doubt that you would be able to get GReddy's e-Manage to control a MiVEC unit without some serious modification to the e-Manage unit and construction of the proper interfaces.

You're best bet would be to just use the ECU that came from the Evo. The incompatibilities between the Evo ECU and a 2G engine are probably quite immense.

In the end, it just isn't worth all the trouble to have MiVEC in your car. You can usually get all of the control you need with a standalone spark/fuel controller (Megasquirt, AEM EMS, etc.) and some a new set of cams and cam gears.

 

[ilikespeeding]

There are a few flaws with your theory.

First, the cam gears on 2G (and 1G) Eclipses are on the driver's side, not the passenger's side.

Furthermore, the head is not perfectly symmetrical. The timing for the exhaust and intake valves is different, thus you would need some sort of compensation for that if you were to rotate the head (although, I've already said that you wouldn't need to in the first place).

Finally, I doubt that you would be able to get GReddy's e-Manage to control a MiVEC unit without some serious modification to the e-Manage unit and construction of the proper interfaces.

You're best bet would be to just use the ECU that came from the Evo. The incompatibilities between the Evo ECU and a 2G engine are probably quite immense.

In the end, it just isn't worth all the trouble to have MiVEC in your car. You can usually get all of the control you need with a standalone spark/fuel controller (Megasquirt, AEM EMS, etc.) and some a new set of cams and cam gears.

I did say the the eclipse gears were on the drivers left side (aka driver side) and the evo had them on the drivers right side (aka passanger). The compensation would lie in switching out the intake and exhaust cams. GReddy's eManage can control MIVEC. To my knowledge, any VTEC controller can control MIVEC. I dont think the wiring harness from the evo 9 would fit on an eclipse. If you were gonna pull the ECU from a 9 then you might as well do an entire engine swap.

You do make an intresting point as to how Id get eManage to read the soleniod as mivec. Ill do some research and come back with an answer. Anyone else see a problem or two?

 

[Attack Eagle]

what about the valve sizing? wouldn't you then be running the wrong size valves?

 

[ilikespeeding]

what about the valve sizing? wouldn't you then be running the wrong size valves?

You might have a point if the intake and exhuast valves are different sizes. Im assuming that the intake has the smaller of the two valves since the intake is responsible for injecting a cold mixture of liquid and gas and exhaust is only hot gas. So, what was the intake becomes the exhaust and needs a porting and oversized valves. Not a problem. But good catch.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

I did say the the eclipse gears were on the drivers left side (aka driver side) and the evo had them on the drivers right side (aka passanger).

Ok, I see what you were saying. Sorry, I misinterpreted what you were saying; I'm used to hearing either "passenger's side" or "driver's side."

I dont think the wiring harness from the evo 9 would fit on an eclipse. If you were gonna pull the ECU from a 9 then you might as well do an entire engine swap.

That's exactly what I was getting at.

To my knowledge, any VTEC controller can control MIVEC.
...
You do make an intresting point as to how Id get eManage to read the soleniod as mivec. Ill do some research and come back with an answer. Anyone else see a problem or two?

Are you sure about that? MIVEC, like you said, is hydraulic, while VTEC is mechanical. To me, that suggests two completely different control systems.

The only other problem I see is drilling new holes into the head. I'm sure it can be done somehow, but I would be extremely careful... the original studs were placed according to the strongest points in the head. By drilling new holes, I think you'll be significantly compromising the structural integrity of the head and the holding strength of the studs themselves. Like I said, it can probably be done, just be careful, and reinforce anything you do.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

You might have a point if the intake and exhuast valves are different sizes. Im assuming that the intake has the smaller of the two valves since the intake is responsible for injecting a cold mixture of liquid and gas and exhaust is only hot gas. So, what was the intake becomes the exhaust and needs a porting and oversized valves. Not a problem. But good catch.

I'm not positive about the Evo head, but it isn't uncommon to have different flow routes and textures (rougher for intake routes and smooth for exhaust routes) between the two sides.

 

[ilikespeeding]

Ok, I see what you were saying. Sorry, I misinterpreted what you were saying; I'm used to hearing either "passenger's side" or "driver's side."


That's exactly what I was getting at.


Are you sure about that? MIVEC, like you said, is hydraulic, while VTEC is mechanical. To me, that suggests two completely different control systems.

The only other problem I see is drilling new holes into the head. I'm sure it can be done somehow, but I would be extremely careful... the original studs were placed according to the strongest points in the head. By drilling new holes, I think you'll be significantly compromising the structural integrity of the head and the holding strength of the studs themselves. Like I said, it can probably be done, just be careful, and reinforce anything you do.

You could always leave the studs on and go with drilling in the manifolds. Or if you feel stupid weld the manifold on.

Both eManage and VAFC do indeed have MIVEC support with the offered MIVEC adaptor.

Edit: if you're gonna do all that head work, its pretty odd not to go all the way with cams, cam gears, oversized valves, high tension springs, porting, polishing, and valve seats.

 

[95TalonOwner]

You could always leave the studs on and go with drilling in the manifolds. Or if you feel stupid weld the manifold on.

Or you could cut each flange off and swap them on the manifolds and reweld them.

 

[BlackCherryTsi]

Are the Head bolts located in the same place?
if you were to do this, you could have custom ground cams for your reveresed sides, you could have custom intake and exhaust manifolds, oversized valves, and alot of other things changes, but it seems like to much work for to little reward. mivec type setups (v-tec etc.) only help a car run smoother with cam that would not run as smooth ( like a v8 with a lumpy cam) performance isn't helped by the mivec

 

[Attack Eagle]

You might have a point if the intake and exhuast valves are different sizes. Im assuming that the intake has the smaller of the two valves since the intake is responsible for injecting a cold mixture of liquid and gas and exhaust is only hot gas. So, what was the intake becomes the exhaust and needs a porting and oversized valves. Not a problem. But good catch.

Otherway around. Intakes are much bigger than exhaust. You do this you will get LESS power than if you left it alone because the ports are shaped differently, the valves will be smaller on the intake with enormous exhaust valves. And there is not enough room to put in 3 or 4 mm larger intake valves.

Nice idea but it won't work.

 

[ilikespeeding]

Otherway around. Intakes are much bigger than exhaust. You do this you will get LESS power than if you left it alone because the ports are shaped differently, the valves will be smaller on the intake with enormous exhaust valves. And there is not enough room to put in 3 or 4 mm larger intake valves.

Nice idea but it won't work.

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They look about the same size to me. This is an 8 head, but Im pretty sure the 9 is similar. Im sure there are differences, but they should be inconsequencal.

Mitsubishi also had another early 90s technology where the intake ports were rifled and spun the incoming air to create awesome power and fuel economy. I cant find the site right now, if anyones heard of this let me know.

The 4G92G, a 1.6 liter, put out 175 hp and ran low 15s.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Both eManage and VAFC do indeed have MIVEC support with the offered MIVEC adaptor.

I don't doubt you; if you say it exists, I'm sure it does, but I can't find any such adapter through GReddy (I see the VTEC support). Could you please link us to a product page?

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Are the Head bolts located in the same place?

Yes, the Evo's use a 4G63 block, however, the head and manifolds differ significantly from DSM designs.

 

[Attack Eagle]

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They look about the same size to me. This is an 8 head, but Im pretty sure the 9 is similar. Im sure there are differences, but they should be inconsequencal.

look a LOT closer. They are clearly different valve sizes, and port shapes. When is the last time you looked at a DSM or at an EVO head in person? Why are we even discussing this?
Would you say, that 17" tire will fit fine on that 18 or 19 " rim... would you suggest that a 205/40 /17 will give the same performance as the right diameter tire? they look abouit the same size in pictures.

ITs not going to work right as proposed because you would be running the head backwards in terms of air flow. You don't have the material to make it work, and if you did you could get a much better 2g or 1g head with cams for the same expense...

why not optimize what you have instead of de optimizing and hacking something else up that you can not make work?
This post is the reason the newbie forum exists. Now I see why Irarely come here. I tried to be nice and let you all figure it out with a little leadership, but some of you are too dense to get it...

EITHER CUSTOM MILL A COMPLETE HEAD AND CAM TO FIT YOUR BLOCK, and adapt the evo 9 ecu, wiring, mivec and dash instrumentation, or forget it.

 

[ericbev]

look a LOT closer. They are clearly different valve sizes, and port shapes. When is the last time you looked at a DSM or at an EVO head in person? Why are we even discussing this?
Would you say, that 17" tire will fit fine on that 18 or 19 " rim... would you suggest that a 205/40 /17 will give the same performance as the right diameter tire? they look abouit the same size in pictures.

ITs not going to work right as proposed because you would be running the head backwards in terms of air flow. You don't have the material to make it work, and if you did you could get a much better 2g or 1g head with cams for the same expense...

why not optimize what you have instead of de optimizing and hacking something else up that you can not make work?
This post is the reason the newbie forum exists. Now I see why Irarely come here. I tried to be nice and let you all figure it out with a little leadership, but some of you are too dense to get it...

EITHER CUSTOM MILL A COMPLETE HEAD AND CAM TO FIT YOUR BLOCK, and adapt the evo 9 ecu, wiring, mivec and dash instrumentation, or forget it.

Thank you for typing this and saving me alot of pain and suffering.

You cannot simply "flip" the head around. The engineering differences in port volume, runner shape, and cross-sectional area between the intake and exhaust sides is huge. Intake ports are quite a bit larger in terms of length and cross-section and are usually set higher in the casting to allow for the correct "dive angle" into the back of the valves. Exhaust ports are much smaller, shorter, and have virtually no angle out of the port. Lets not forget about differences in valve size.

Lets also not even get into trying to mount an intake manifold on the exhaust side and vice versa. Even if somehow it was acomplished, its crazytalk. Intake/exhaust flow quality would be horrendous.

Headstuds, waterjackets, headgaskets, MIVEC controllers, cam gears..... and so on...too many problems

MIVEC isnt all its cracked up to be anways. It is largely beneficial to smaller turbos cars because it (unlike VTEC) is activated at lower rpms, not higher rpms. On a turbo with a broader powerband it can be utilized much more efficiently. On big turbo cars, its pretty much uselss to have.

The selection of the correct cam profile will be all you need to get the flow you require.

 

[ilikespeeding]

look a LOT closer. They are clearly different valve sizes, and port shapes. When is the last time you looked at a DSM or at an EVO head in person? Why are we even discussing this?
Would you say, that 17" tire will fit fine on that 18 or 19 " rim... would you suggest that a 205/40 /17 will give the same performance as the right diameter tire? they look abouit the same size in pictures.

ITs not going to work right as proposed because you would be running the head backwards in terms of air flow. You don't have the material to make it work, and if you did you could get a much better 2g or 1g head with cams for the same expense...

why not optimize what you have instead of de optimizing and hacking something else up that you can not make work?
This post is the reason the newbie forum exists. Now I see why Irarely come here. I tried to be nice and let you all figure it out with a little leadership, but some of you are too dense to get it...

EITHER CUSTOM MILL A COMPLETE HEAD AND CAM TO FIT YOUR BLOCK, and adapt the evo 9 ecu, wiring, mivec and dash instrumentation, or forget it.

If you dont want to discuss it, Im not forcing you to, so you really dont have to go as far as calling me dense. How would people get anywhere as a whole if no one asked questions? Anyways, there is something that attracts me to the idea of variable valve timing on a DSM so I will try it out. There is a solution to this problem and I will find it. If I have to, I'll do the evo swap. Really the only thing that seems to truly be a problem is the water sleeves, which could be changed by drilling a 14 mm opening half an inch into each water jacket and into the head gasket, provided it didnt cause failure in the gasket. The ports can be ported and polished and the runners can be swapped. I do understand that this would provide only some of the restriction of the head, however I do think that in the end, there will be more power. You guys were talking about how MIVEC is tuned more for the bottom end as opposed to the Vtecs top end tuning. If I have full control over Mivec, then I could retune for the top end, especially if I through in a new set of cams from turbotrix. Thanks for you advice tho.


parts page
http://www.flyn.com.au/apexi parts.htm

Im not really trying to sacrifice the bottom end for a top end tune. Im not trying to put some wild cams and huge turbo on, Im really looking for an all around car.

 

[brute]

What exactly are you trying to accomplish? More air flow? Built head? Or simply the use of Mivec?

Sounds like a lot of long hours and custom work for like 5-10whp MAYBE. Like they all said, you might as well use the head you have now and just drop some cams in and get it ported. That'll net you way more than you'll see with that nightmare-of-an-idea Mivec thing...

 

[jepherz]

What exactly triggers MIVEC? If you were to get an eprom ecu, you could easily trigger anything based on load, rpm, etc. It's a pretty simple addition to the stock code to control something such as a cyclone intake, so I don't see why this would be any more difficult. I'm guessing the solenoids are either on or off based on RPM?

Ohh, and about your comment being that MIVEC is mechanical and VTEC is electronic? I'm guessing that MIVEC is still electronic in a sense. IE. that the movement of the valves is accomplished by oil, but the solenoids that actually control the extra flow of oil are controlled electronically. I believe that is how subaru's stuff works.

 

[big_eskimo]

I think this is a good idea. I'm sure that when the early DSMers were coming up with all the stuff we do now that is common and they just would have said "aw screw it! It'll never work!" DSM's wouldn't be where they are today. I'm not saying that this will or will not work, and if it did actaully work it sounds VERY expensive, but it's pretty cool that someone's actually trying it. I'm sure there were people in the early days that said "don't change your FWD to AWD or don't make your auto a manual." Bottom line is people tried and and we're the better for it! People shouldn't put down others ideas regardless of how crazy they sound, everything sounds crazy in the beginning, like a computer, a box (well they were like the size of an entire room in the beginning) that could make thousands of calculations a second, we would never have it if the inventor had listened to conventional thinking. Good luck with your project and keep us posted!

 

[ilikespeeding]

Thank you. I will keep you updated.


For the others:
Mivec, in the truest since, is triggered by the ECU. The ECU sends an electronic signal to a soleniod to open an oil control valve to send pressurized oil to the head to switch the cam profile. I will use eManage to monitor the RPM to send a signal to the soleniod. If I can gain WHP from single profile cams then imagine what kind of gains Id get from aftermarket cams on a three profile outfit. Not only that, but if I could do this...Id get it ported and polished with oversized valves...so gains would be atleast 20 whp.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Ohh, and about your comment being that MIVEC is mechanical and VTEC is electronic? I'm guessing that MIVEC is still electronic in a sense. IE. that the movement of the valves is accomplished by oil, but the solenoids that actually control the extra flow of oil are controlled electronically. I believe that is how subaru's stuff works.

Not quite. VTEC was traditionally a "dumb" system - it was an almost purely mechanical system activated by high oil pressures (although, they have since developed "i-VTEC").

MIVEC, as ilikespeeding has been saying, is activated by controlled oil pressure through ECU activated solenoids.


Also, here's one more thing to think about for this project... I just read the following about MIVEC in Sport Compact Car:

MIVEC (Mitsubishi Innovative Valve timing and lift Electronic Control), ironically, controls only valve timing (not lift) in the version used on the EVO IX. Valve timing is altered using a variable-area cam sprocket actuated by an oil control valve.

Having an automated system to change valve timing is still pretty nice, but it doesn't sound like it'll accomplish everything you want it to - in all practical sense, adjustable cam gears will do the same thing for a fraction of the mess.

I'm not dissuading you to do anything though. The concept sounds interesting and if you're able to do it, then you've just benefited our community.

I have one final suggestion though; rather than trying to completely swap the Evo head, why don't you look into just retrofitting a more complete MIVEC system onto your current head? I'm not sure exactly how feasible this is, but at least you could bypass many of the engineering headaches you're facing at the moment.

In any case, good luck.

 

[Attack Eagle]

or just fit an electronically controlled cam gear on your existing head? would be alot easier than running a head backwards and dealing with all that.

It's only purpose is to retard cam timing for more torque low in the power band and advance it for better top end hp.

Good luck... you are going to need it.
and velocita, vtec also uses a solenoid to trigger the oil pressure produced switchover, just like evo9's mivec.

 

[ericbev]

If I have to, I'll do the evo swap.

Do you truly understand how much money, custom fabrication and time you would have to invest for such margainal gains? I am not trying to shoot you down but simly explain that its truly not worth the effort.

Really the only thing that seems to truly be a problem is the water sleeves.

This truly is the least of your problems.

The ports can be ported and polished and the runners can be swapped. I do understand that this would provide only some of the restriction of the head, however I do think that in the end, there will be more power.

Have you ever looked at (in person) the differences between an intake and exhaust port? There is no way you can use the intake side for exhaust and vice versa without sacraficing gigantic amounts of power and driveability. There is also no way to modify one enough to do the others job. It is impossible to get the desired results this way.

Bottom line is MIVEC in no way shape or form will make up for the handicap you would be giving your engine by doing the said procedure. It will not make more power.

You guys were talking about how MIVEC is tuned more for the bottom end as opposed to the Vtecs top end tuning. If I have full control over Mivec, then I could retune for the top end, especially if I through in a new set of cams from turbotrix. Thanks for you advice tho.

If you were going to tune for the top end instead of the bottom why not just get a proper set of cams like i specificed in my last post which nobody seemed to read. For anything over a 16G I wouldnt consider it an advantage but an extra tuning variable.

Im not really trying to sacrifice the bottom end for a top end tune. Im not trying to put some wild cams and huge turbo on, Im really looking for an all around car.

You can get a car with awesome power and a very useable powerband without doing all of this crazy unneseccary work.

 

[mavisky]

You'd be much better off trying to create an oil controlled cam gear for your stock head than this nonsense about swapping heads with evo's.

And like others have said you're talking about a 10wtq gain on the low end and maybe 10whp at max on the top end. Is that really worth thousands of dollars in customization.

Trying something new is admirable, but pushing through a terrible idea just to do it is a waste of time, money, and resources. In all honesty you're looking at the latter situation with this head swap idea.

I've still not seen exactly why you want to run MIVEC in the first place, is it just to say you have it or because of the negligible gains it offers?

FYI - We at Hyundai put CVVT onto our 2.0 liter 4 cylinders in 2004. It looks at rpm and tps to determine the best profile and it took us from 132hp - 138hp at 6,000 rpm and from 126tq - 136tq at 4,500rpm. That's 6 and 10 respectively at the crank, which means even less at the wheels. If we were to assume that MIVEC was drastically better than this system then you're looking at maybe 12 crank hp and 20 crank tq or more like 10whp and 17wtq. Factor in the fact that boosted cars aren't nearly as dependent on cam timing as an na motor is and I wouldn't be surprised to see those wheel numbers drop to 8 and 15 or so. Is it really worth it to try and make it work, or add a little more fuel and 1 more psi of boost and watch both numbers jump by 10-20?