Idea for MIVEC on 2G

[ilikespeeding]

Id like to see if anyone could find some problems with this:

I had an idea for MIVEC that involved the evo 9 head. On the 9, the cam gears are on the drivers right side as opposed to the eclipse's left. This is a pretty easy fix by spinning the head 180 degrees, which would work because the head is symmetrical. This spin creates two problems, timing and studs for the manifolds. You're going to have to switch the intake and exhaust cams as well as cut some studs off and weld some studs on and rethread (map seen below)...not a big deal provided I am correct. Now that you have the head on there..how do you make it work? Mivec is hydraulic and needs oil to operate. This oil is controlled from an oil control valve and a solenoid. So, we're gonna need a feed line just past the oil pump and a return line for oil that dumps before the oil filter and an OEM OCV and solenoid. So, how do we get it to turn on? Any Vtec controller will work for mivec...but what self respecting DSM driver puts anything saying vtec anywhere near their DSM? No one. So lets use a Greddy eManage with RPM harness. The eManage will hook up to the solenoid and allow Mivec tuning as well as full control of fuel, ignition and other goodies from Greddy.


Once being cleared...I might try to use it. Blue lines mean cut off studs and red means new studs.

 

[gsxeclipse97]

Well, I kind of got it from the "bolt it to a DSM block the way it's supposed to be," but I just can't understand why people would want to try and modify either the EVO head or the DSM head to hack it all together when the cams already spin the same way.

There's quite a bit of room behind the engine. Get rid of the A/C compressor and the intake manifold, and you could cram quite a bit back there. But lest anyone think any of this means I'm interested in trying it, I would rather swap the whole EVO engine and drivetrain over before going to that trouble (and I wouldn't even do that when I could just keep modding what came in the car).

And how excatly would you plan on spinning the cams, the crank pully is on the other side.

 

[ilikespeeding]

flip the cams around.

 

[IceMinion]

Personally, I would rather grab the whole evo engine & transmission and shoe horn it into a 2g, then you could have all the transmission technology in your car too!

I would think that building custom motor mounts is easier then putting a backwards head on a DSM.

(remember they put a evo 9 driveline in a 4g eclipse)

 

[Grescht]

Fear my VTAC and my Honda Turboz!(if you don't know what i'm talking about go to youtube and type in Honda turboz "weak ass vtac") . Cool idea, but it seems like it would be alot of trouble, and it might not work at all. Oh well.

 

[rarson]

You really think it would be easier to make a custom SMIM, exhaust manifold, downpipe, and charge pipes...not to mention fabricate everything else that's not immediatly obvious than to try to just swap internals.

Yes, I do. If you have a welder and some materials and a little bit of skill, that is.

And how excatly would you plan on spinning the cams, the crank pully is on the other side.

Gee, I don't know, maybe if you read my previous posts you'll find an answer.

Personally, I would rather grab the whole evo engine & transmission and shoe horn it into a 2g, then you could have all the transmission technology in your car too!

I would think that building custom motor mounts is easier then putting a backwards head on a DSM.

I agree!

 

[red91gst]

Dead thread, but i want to clear somthing up I think some of you might be missing.

VTEC is NOT = MIVEC

VTEC is a dumb system, it locks a rocker in place with oil presure to switch to a different cam lobe, this changes LIFT and DURATION.

MIVEC is essentially a electronically controlable adjustable cam gear. It DOES NOT change lift or valve duration, but can advance or retard the intake cam itself +-15* which also affects LSA (lobe seperation angle.)

The control logic in the EVO9 ECU to do all this is fairly complex, have you ACTUALLY controlled the MIVEC system with an Emanage like you say? And what modifcations do you do to a standard VTEC control to do this? The control table in the EVO9 ECU is a large one based on Engine Load and RPM.

Sorry, I had to jump into this one .

 

[rarson]

blah blah blah...

Ha ha ha, you're funny.

That "dumb" VTEC system of switching cam lobes worked great. It allowed two completely different cam profiles to be used, instead of simply varying cam timing. It's a moot point now, since i-VTEC incorporates VTC (3 guesses as to what that stands for).

What is also funny is that MIVEC has followed this same evolution. See MIVEC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Way to illustrate your ignorance.

 

[red91gst]

Ha ha ha, you're funny.

That "dumb" VTEC system of switching cam lobes worked great. It allowed two completely different cam profiles to be used, instead of simply varying cam timing. It's a moot point now, since i-VTEC incorporates VTC (3 guesses as to what that stands for).

What is also funny is that MIVEC has followed this same evolution. See MIVEC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Way to illustrate your ignorance.

By "dumb" I meant simple. It is inherently a dumb system, on/off. I never said it was useless, nor did I state it was better/worse than MIVEC.

Someone stated earlier that MIVEC in the EVO9 changes cam profile like VTEC, it doesn't, it changes cam ANGLE ( and in some cases also lift and duration).

I tune almost as many turbo VTEC Honda's as I do EVOs, DSMs, and Subys. Know who you are talking to before you call me "ignorant." That, in and of itself, is ignorance ;-).

 

[rarson]

Someone stated earlier that MIVEC in the EVO9 changes cam profile like VTEC, it doesn't, it changes cam ANGLE ( and in some cases also lift and duration).

I tune almost as many turbo VTEC Honda's as I do EVOs, DSMs, and Subys. Know who you are talking to before you call me "ignorant." That, in and of itself, is ignorance ;-).

Okay, well MIVEC itself was based on cam profiles (not simply timing). In the EVO IX, the only info I can find stating "variable valve timing" is Wikipedia. I was under the impression that the EVO IX MIVEC dealt with timing only, but a link to substantiate that would be nice.

But you appeared to be talking about MIVEC in general, which started out as a variable cam profile system exactly like VTEC (see above Wikipedia link). Not cam timing only as you stated above.

 

[ilikespeeding]

Dead thread, but i want to clear somthing up I think some of you might be missing.

VTEC is NOT = MIVEC

VTEC is a dumb system, it locks a rocker in place with oil presure to switch to a different cam lobe, this changes LIFT and DURATION.

MIVEC is essentially a electronically controlable adjustable cam gear. It DOES NOT change lift or valve duration, but can advance or retard the intake cam itself +-15* which also affects LSA (lobe seperation angle.)

The control logic in the EVO9 ECU to do all this is fairly complex, have you ACTUALLY controlled the MIVEC system with an Emanage like you say? And what modifcations do you do to a standard VTEC control to do this? The control table in the EVO9 ECU is a large one based on Engine Load and RPM.

Sorry, I had to jump into this one .

Maybe I dont understand. The way you describe it, it sounds like MIVEC works by actually advancing or retarding the cam. This video describes more of a vtec-like oil pressure system:

Comparison of MIVEC, VTEC and VVT

I dont know japanese, so I dont really know what's going on. I've never used emanage nor am I familiar with MIVEC at all. But GReddy does say it's vmanage will control MIVEC. The only problem is that the vmanage is made for the EVO, whom Im assuming has completely different sensor outputs than a DSM. Most vtec controllers are marketed as vtec/mivec controllers. One that comes to mind off hand is the camfc controller. That, I believe, would be the easiest route.

 

[syrushcw]

I read something like this on a uk forum about trying to put a mivec head on an EVO3. I cant find the link but it went somehting like this. They took an evo head turned 180* so it would go on fine I don't know if they tapped to head studs but they wanted to bored out the old exhaust valve so it would be bigger then the old intake valves, I believe dsm intake valves are bigger then exhaust. I think the concept would work fine if the studs line up but i think you'll give the ECU a heart attack when it finds out the engine is spinning backwards unless you can find a way to invert the sensors.

 

[Gs Dewd]

What does mivec do anyway? Give more torqe in the lower end? Wouldn't it be much more pratical to bolt a Cyclone intake on your car and play with that and call it a day? Swapping heads from an evo to a 1st or 2nd gen seems so far fetched and expensive that it is impossible for 90% of the people on this board. If there was something to gain from it and if it was so "easy" to do you would have seen it done many times over by now. Trust me anything easy for us to do to our dsm's is massed coppied through out this board. If or when you accomplish this please let us know we would love to see it. I do get the ideal of wanting to be different in a community where it seems everyone has a very close setup but this seems just to far fecthed to even become a reality.

 

[syrushcw]

Well here another idea grab an Evo IX engine a 2g tranny bolt them up pop it in 2g the way, like I said you will need to bore the valves out but hooking up a 2g tranny should spin the timing belt in the opposite direction so all you would need to do is switch the manifolds and be good to go but if you are using the evo ecu you would still need to find a way to invert all the signals and I'm not even sure the motor mounters would work. Its the same block all it comes down to is the head I say experiment till your little heart is content, if i wasn't doing a build right now i would be experimenting because I have an extra 2g 7 bolt and i got offered and Evo VIII engine for 900 not that long ago but Evo VIII only dosn't have mivec. :-(

 

[ilikespeeding]

Well here another idea grab an Evo IX engine a 2g tranny bolt them up pop it in 2g the way, like I said you will need to bore the valves out but hooking up a 2g tranny should spin the timing belt in the opposite direction so all you would need to do is switch the manifolds and be good to go but if you are using the evo ecu you would still need to find a way to invert all the signals and I'm not even sure the motor mounters would work. Its the same block all it comes down to is the head I say experiment till your little heart is content, if i wasn't doing a build right now i would be experimenting because I have an extra 2g 7 bolt and i got offered and Evo VIII engine for 900 not that long ago but Evo VIII only dosn't have mivec. :-(

That wont work. You cant just rotate a motor and switch the manifolds. The ports are designed specifically for either intake or exhaust; you cant switch. The motor mounts wouldn't work, like you said. The wiring harness wouldn't line up, etc.

What does mivec do anyway? Give more torqe in the lower end? Wouldn't it be much more pratical to bolt a Cyclone intake on your car and play with that and call it a day? Swapping heads from an evo to a 1st or 2nd gen seems so far fetched and expensive that it is impossible for 90% of the people on this board. If there was something to gain from it and if it was so "easy" to do you would have seen it done many times over by now. Trust me anything easy for us to do to our dsm's is massed coppied through out this board. If or when you accomplish this please let us know we would love to see it. I do get the ideal of wanting to be different in a community where it seems everyone has a very close setup but this seems just to far fecthed to even become a reality.

1) It allows me to idle like stock on 280 cams
2) Sound like stock to police/other cars in the city
3) Low end, part throttle torque

I actually want to throw on cyclone ontop of MIVEC and play with both. You can't say that everything that is easy has been tried already. A guy on carolinadsm just figured out that the 300GT single cam motor is a damn near drop in for 1Gs.

 

[rarson]

Also better gas mileage, since you're not on the hot cam all the time.

 

[ryanx99GS]

How is VTEC a dumb system? On my 2004 Honda Accord when it hits vtec in 2nd it honestly imo feels like I have a turbo up there until I hit about 3rd then after that vtec is worthless. I have been helping my friend tune his 2001 Civic Si with hondata. I do the driving while he tunes on the laptop. 2 nights ago we pulled up next to a EVO 9 MR. I have not actually got "on" the car at this point and thought hey this might be fun. Running 7 pounds of boost, 3 honks, bam I drop it in third and im a car ahead of the EVO, VTEC kicks in at 5rpm's and pulls me to 2 1/2 cars. And don't tell me that the evo was not trying because we pulled over and talked to the guy. He was amazed and dumbfounded. That was at 7 pounds when we ran him. He has this motor built to run 25. VTEC is by far not a dumb system and I wish mitsubishi could have utilized it.

 

[ilikespeeding]

How is VTEC a dumb system? On my 2004 Honda Accord when it hits vtec in 2nd it honestly imo feels like I have a turbo up there until I hit about 3rd then after that vtec is worthless. I have been helping my friend tune his 2001 Civic Si with hondata. I do the driving while he tunes on the laptop. 2 nights ago we pulled up next to a EVO 9 MR. I have not actually got "on" the car at this point and thought hey this might be fun. Running 7 pounds of boost, 3 honks, bam I drop it in third and im a car ahead of the EVO, VTEC kicks in at 5rpm's and pulls me to 2 1/2 cars. And don't tell me that the evo was not trying because we pulled over and talked to the guy. He was amazed and dumbfounded. That was at 7 pounds when we ran him. He has this motor built to run 25. VTEC is by far not a dumb system and I wish mitsubishi could have utilized it.

By dumb, he means simple. VTEC is bullshit for dragracing. MIVEC is bullshit for dragracing. Look at the setup for any honda running anything below 11s, they've ditched vtec. What turbo was that honda running? Anything less than a 50 trim and you're BS hardcore. 7psi on anything other than that, and theres no way its faster than 25 psi on a 16g. You're talking about damn near 350-370 hp on the 16G. Either his car was running like shit, some other huge factor that wasnt included in your post, or you're BSing.

 

[rarson]

You don't HAVE to ditch VTEC to run fast times with a Honda. Most drag guys do because the non-VTEC cams are cheaper. There's no difference between a hot non-VTEC cam and a hot VTEC cam, other than the absence of the low lift/duration lobes.

 

[ryanx99GS]

By dumb, he means simple. VTEC is bullshit for dragracing. MIVEC is bullshit for dragracing. Look at the setup for any honda running anything below 11s, they've ditched vtec. What turbo was that honda running? Anything less than a 50 trim and you're BS hardcore. 7psi on anything other than that, and theres no way its faster than 25 psi on a 16g. You're talking about damn near 350-370 hp on the 16G. Either his car was running like shit, some other huge factor that wasnt included in your post, or you're BSing.

Haha buddy I'm not bsing. I kicked myself in the ass for leaving my camera on my buddies work bench and not bringing it with us because I knew noone would believe me. He runs the GReddy kit with a fully built Type-R motor. Right before I downshifted to get ready to do a roll I asked my buddy how many pounds are we running right now, he said 7. His car is only good from a roll, I tried multiple starts from a complete stop and I spin all the way through 3rd gear.

BTW, the guy just bought the EVO earlier in the day. Bone stock, had 25k. Nothing was wrong with that thing. Like I said, we pulled over and talked.

 

[ilikespeeding]

You don't HAVE to ditch VTEC to run fast times with a Honda. Most drag guys do because the non-VTEC cams are cheaper. There's no difference between a hot non-VTEC cam and a hot VTEC cam, other than the absence of the low lift/duration lobes.

I'm just saying that most honda, purpose built drag racers ditch the vtec. IIRC, the nonvtec offers higher lift..

...this really doesnt matter. This thread is about street use of mivec.

Haha buddy I'm not bsing. I kicked myself in the ass for leaving my camera on my buddies work bench and not bringing it with us because I knew noone would believe me. He runs the GReddy kit with a fully built Type-R motor. Right before I downshifted to get ready to do a roll I asked my buddy how many pounds are we running right now, he said 7. His car is only good from a roll, I tried multiple starts from a complete stop and I spin all the way through 3rd gear.

BTW, the guy just bought the EVO earlier in the day. Bone stock, had 25k. Nothing was wrong with that thing. Like I said, we pulled over and talked.

If it's running 25 psi, it's modded. So, theres a potential #### up there. IIRC, the GReddy kit uses an 18G. Surely, even with the weight, compression, and turbo differences, that 25psi on a 16G is faster than 7 on an 18G.

18G @ 7psi = 250ish cfm
16G @ 25psi = 400ish cfm

 

[ryanx99GS]

I'm just saying that most honda, purpose built drag racers ditch the vtec. IIRC, the nonvtec offers higher lift..

...this really doesnt matter. This thread is about street use of mivec.



If it's running 25 psi, it's modded. So, theres a potential #### up there. IIRC, the GReddy kit uses an 18G. Surely, even with the weight, compression, and turbo differences, that 25psi on a 16G is faster than 7 on an 18G.

It was running 7 at the time of the race with the EVO. It is capable of running UP to 25 pounds but we are gradually uping the boost while we tune. I'm sorry dude, I wouldn't lie , but the Honda > . I mean if you really want, I could go back over to Columbia, IL and find the EVO if you would like me to prove it to you.

 

[rarson]

...this really doesnt matter. This thread is about street use of mivec.

Okay, well you brought it up:

VTEC is bullshit for dragracing. MIVEC is bullshit for dragracing.

18G @ 7psi = 250ish cfm
16G @ 25psi = 400ish cfm

Bench race much? You're comparing apples to oranges. He said his friend was running a 2001 Civic Si with a fully built Type R motor. The 2001 Type R had a K20A if I recall correctly. That engine puts out 220 hp naturally-aspirated. Not to mention that the 2001 Si is several hundred pounds lighter than the EVO. YOU'RE the one who is BSing.

VTEC surely isn't the reason his car is so quick... the K20 head flows some serious air. But seeing as how it's not too hard to get a Honda with a K20 to run 11's *without* a turbo, I don't disbelieve him.

 

[rarson]

By the way, the only way you could calculate airflow from a specific boost level is if you knew the shaft rpm of the compressor and had a map to read off of. 7 psi on a stock 2g head (for instance) isn't nearly the same as 7 psi on a Honda K20 head, even with the same compressor.

 

[ilikespeeding]

Okay, well you brought it up:





Bench race much? You're comparing apples to oranges. He said his friend was running a 2001 Civic Si with a fully built Type R motor. The 2001 Type R had a K20A if I recall correctly. That engine puts out 220 hp naturally-aspirated. Not to mention that the 2001 Si is several hundred pounds lighter than the EVO. YOU'RE the one who is BSing.

VTEC surely isn't the reason his car is so quick... the K20 head flows some serious air. But seeing as how it's not too hard to get a Honda with a K20 to run 11's *without* a turbo, I don't disbelieve him.

Not fimiliar with the edit button? That, and "street use" and dragracing do not mean the same thing.

Now that that's taken care of...you're quatation of the civc's stock horsepower means nothing to me. 220 hp is due to high profile cams and high compression. You also forgot the biggest difference in cfm ratings; 7psi at 12:1 compression is alot different than 7psi at 9:1. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about trying to get mivec into a dsm. Please stop jacking my thread before it gets locked. I'm honestly trying to figure out if this is possible.

 

[rarson]

You also forgot the biggest difference in cfm ratings; 7psi at 12:1 compression is alot different than 7psi at 9:1.

How so? The same two engines at different compression ratios are still consuming the exact same amount of air (compression ratio has no effect on displacement).

Your 2-year-old thread.

This thread needs to die.