HTA68 and Evo III 16g pics

[Dewayne Waldron]

I'm very anxious to find out how well this turbo performs. I'm growing tyred of the 16g and want to find a good street turbo. I have an extra 16g that needs a rebuild that I would love to maybe switch over to the 3071 compressor. How much would have to be milled from the housing in order for this to work?

 

[JusMX141]

I have an extra 16g that needs a rebuild that I would love to maybe switch over to the 3071 compressor. How much would have to be milled from the housing in order for this to work?

It would be a lot of work. Perhaps if the 16G had a damaged compressor this would be feasible, but if you're modding a perfectly good turbo you're probably throwing your money away.

It's hard enough finding a ball-bearing compressor wheel by itself because ball-bearing turbos aren't meant to be serviced. You'd pretty much have to know someone with a 3071 that destroyed their center housing or turbine wheel but did no damage to the compressor.

Once you find the wheel, you'd need to have the backplate machined flat and the shaft hole machined to fit a TD05H turbine. From there you'd need to machine the center housing to fit the 3071's backplate diameter, then have the compressor cover inlet and wheel area machined to fit the 3071 compressor. Now you must have the rotating assembly balanced, and then you're on your way.

I'd think once you found a compressor, had all the necessary machining done, rebalanced the rotating assembly, and bought a parts kit to make the turbo as good as new, you'd be somewhere in the $450-$500 region.


From what I've learned, it's much easier to buy a complete custom-built turbo than it is to build one yourself.

 

[Dewayne Waldron]

Yea, I think you're right. I might as well just try to get the fp68hta then to go through all of that. Not even sure where around this shit whole that I could even get it balanced. More than likely after everything is said and done you would be closer to the price of the actual FP model. Do they take core's?

 

[JusMX141]

Do they take core's?

It would be interesting to know if they'd be willing to turn your turbo into a HTA68 for a nominal fee. Of course, I don't know what the expense would be....I recall FP's rebuild pricing being over $400 alone, which is highway robbery given the price of a new 16G these days. I'm quite aware that they do a thorough job, but their pricing deters anyone from ever actually rebuilding their turbocharger.

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

Well its been awhile since i have taken a look at my sleeper 16g, but that sure does look awfully familiar, just the exhaust on mine is bigger, maybe all they did was make a billet wheel to the sleeper and make a more restrictive exhaust side to make it spool faster.

 

[ludevtec93]

any results??

 

[Avionixx]

My water injection lines decided to leak profusely last week as I was starting to do some pulls, so I pretty much spent the whole day trying to fix them. Turns out I need new fittings, which won't be here until Monday.

I'm just glad it wasn't meth that was splattering all over the hatch.

I'll still do some pulls this weekend, but without any water or meth, I doubt they'll be spectacular. Should be good for a baseline tune though.

 

[TSIMonsteR]

Any updates on this? Hows the spool compared to an e316G? I want to get one if FP has any tax return sales planned for this booger, but I'm still on the stock stall and want to make sure I can get the boost up on the line just as well.

 

[805DSM]

X2^^ on the updates..i am too debating if this is worth the cash over the e316g..

 

[98turbo]

I really wouldnt mind seeing some back pressure tests with the larger modified MHI styled turbos, I am willing to bet they are higher and larger than what is accepted as "normal"

That turbine wheel looks to be a tad small. No matter what you put in or how fast youput it in, it eventually has to come out. I do however think it would be killer for a mild build motor.

Also i seem to always hear everyone say "spool" what exactly is spool? I really wish we could really start using somethign relevant like maybe "positive boost pressure" or something of the sort. I see so many people refer to spool when i think they just plain hear compressor noise.

Anyone have any IAT logs from this little moster?

 

[donniekak]

I'm sure this is a good turbo. My only problem is that when i upgrade turbo's i usually shoot for a 80+ whp gain. This is another good turbo, in a bad spot. If you already have an evo 3, why spend the cash for 3-4lb/min more flow? You could get any number of 50+lb/min turbo's for the same cash, and not lose much spool.

 

[fran_drivertsi]

I'm sure this is a good turbo. My only problem is that when i upgrade turbo's i usually shoot for a 80+ whp gain. This is another good turbo, in a bad spot. If you already have an evo 3, why spend the cash for 3-4lb/min more flow? You could get any number of 50+lb/min turbo's for the same cash, and not lose much spool.

Next step up from 68HTA is FPGreen, which is 1200$. So quite a bit more...

 

[donniekak]

Next step up from 68HTA is FPGreen, which is 1200$. So quite a bit more...

According to FP. I've had 60 lb/min turbos at 25 psi by 4300 rpm's that cost less than $600.

 

[dsm-onster]

Amen donnie. This would be a nice turbo if the evo3 16g wasn't already there. The next step is the flow of the fpgreen, yes. But who pays $1200 for nice spooling bolton turbo that flows 50-55lb/min any more?

And the backpressure logs are TRUELY what we DO need to see. This is the same turbine wheel that the stock 14b uses. The size difference between the 14b 6cm^2 turbine housing and the 16g 7cm^2 housing is less than going from a .48 a/r garrett housing to a .63 a/r housing. And with the 7cm^2 housing you still have that terrible volute shape. No radiused entry and not even centered. The 7cm^2 td05h housing is already fairly tapped out with one who rings out the evo3 16g compressor wheel. You'll have to spend $300+ for a VERY good exhaust manifold and $450+ for a VERY good SMIM, just to get around the poor VE the turbine wheel/housing offer with this much flow potential from the compressor. Not very budget friendly to get to that 47lb/min flow number IMHO. It's not worth it for guys who want to pay just the difference between this and the evo3 16g to get that 3-4lb/min difference. ALOT more has to be invested in other than just this compressor upgrade to see that little difference in flow.

 

[98turbo]

Amen donnie. This would be a nice turbo if the evo3 16g wasn't already there. The next step is the flow of the fpgreen, yes. But who pays $1200 for nice spooling bolton turbo that flows 50-55lb/min any more?

And the backpressure logs are TRUELY what we DO need to see. This is the same turbine wheel that the stock 14b uses. The size difference between the 14b 6cm^2 turbine housing and the 16g 7cm^2 housing is less than going from a .48 a/r garrett housing to a .63 a/r housing. And with the 7cm^2 housing you still have that terrible volute shape. No radiused entry and not even centered. The 7cm^2 td05h housing is already fairly tapped out with one who rings out the evo3 16g compressor wheel. You'll have to spend $300+ for a VERY good exhaust manifold and $450+ for a VERY good SMIM, just to get around the poor VE the turbine wheel/housing offer with this much flow potential from the compressor. Not very budget friendly to get to that 47lb/min flow number IMHO. It's not worth it for guys who want to pay just the difference between this and the evo3 16g to get that 3-4lb/min difference. ALOT more has to be invested in other than just this compressor upgrade to see that little difference in flow.

AMEN!!!!


spoken like a true turbo nerd like myself We do tons of backpressure tests here at the shop, its one way of finding out really what turbo, exh wheel, and turbine housing. Its very aparent to quite a few DSM owners here locally why their turbos wil lmake a million psi of boost by 3000 rpms, but the car really doesnt make any power, and falls of extremely hard.

I honestly think there are quite a few better choices for the money. And with the poor housing choices forthis particular one, i just wouldnt buy it IMO.

 

[94awdcoupe]

AMEN!!!!


spoken like a true turbo nerd like myself We do tons of backpressure tests here at the shop, its one way of finding out really what turbo, exh wheel, and turbine housing. Its very aparent to quite a few DSM owners here locally why their turbos wil lmake a million psi of boost by 3000 rpms, but the car really doesnt make any power, and falls of extremely hard.

I honestly think there are quite a few better choices for the money. And with the poor housing choices forthis particular one, i just wouldnt buy it IMO.

I doubt you do anywhere near the type of testing Robert does when he designs a turbo. here is a recent quote from another board.

During a testing session like this we log a lot of paramters in order to observe the very subtle differences in shaft speed, compressor outlet temps compressor and turbine pressure ratios etc. We collect the following data streams typically:

Compressor Mass flow (certified meter)
Compressor inlet pressure
Compressor surge port pressure
Compressor outlet pressure
Compressor inlet temp
Compressor outlet temp
Turbo shaft speed
Turbine inlet pressure (both volutes)
Turbine outlet pressure
Turbine inlet temperature
Turbine outlet temperature
Intake manifold pressure
Intake port air temperature
engine oil pressure
turbocharger oil pressure
turbocharger oil inlet temperature
turbocharger thrust bearing temperature
turbocharger actuator linear position


With all these extra sensors (pretty sure I am forgetting a few) fitted the underhood gets a little busy with wires, but thats just part of the game when you get down and dirty and take the job of turbocharger testing as serious as we do. All these sensors are in addition to the typical sensors and data streams normally used to actually "manage" the operation of the engine. All this data is collected thru the Motec M800 ecu and a E888 expansion module which offer the highest data sampling rate possible in an application such as this. Having all this data is essential to product development and is directly responsible for the high performance of our turbochargers. Guess this is why people copy what we do year after year after year after year I am truly flattered!

 

[rampridersrider]

Its a direct bolt on upgrade from a 14b. Your average 14b car will usually make 220-250 hp, if you want to upgrade, but don't want to change anything else, you can get this turbo, retune and have a 350-400 hp capable setup (obviously with the proper supporting mods). They didn't design this turbo to be the end all of turbos in the 48 lb/min range, just another option.

I like the fact that we have so many bolt on style turbo upgrades as it keeps things fresh.

 

[pboglio]

Hmm. If FP weren't around, we'd have alot fewer options. So far, the standard
MHI small 16g and EVOIII 16g were/are far superior to their T28's, but still they were trying something different. Maybe this 68HTA is no better than a MHI 18g, but I give them credit for pushing the envelope. I personally like having options and when these things go on sale for $799, I cannot see how anyone can complain about the turbo. FP has to buy a standard 16g turbo, ditch the compressor wheel, and machine a new one. So, the jump from $569 to whatever they are selling them for is reasonable these days is reasonable ($849 last I checked).

This debate is raging over on NASIOC, and the 68HTA is doing fine, same goes on Evolutionm/forums. Its basically the FP White that everybody knows makes another +30 h.p. over the EVO stock turbo. When you figure a good set of big cams, spring retainers, valve spring upgrades will easily run $800 with alot worse driveability issues, for a similar +30 h.p. increase, it doesn't look like a bad deal. YMMV.

 

[dsm-onster]

The FPwhite has a better flowing hotside. The twinscroll design makes backpressure practically a non-issue since no blowdown events affect any overlap events. Twinscroll tech is an amazing thing . . . I wouldn't hesitate to run a larger compressor on the 10cm^2 twinscroll td05hr housing/wheel. But most dsmer's here are stuck in the turbo dinosaur era and are happy to upgrade to the non-divided evo3 exhaust manifold.

I doubt you do anywhere near the type of testing Robert does when he designs a turbo. here is a recent quote from another board.

During a testing session like this we log a lot of paramters in order to observe the very subtle differences in shaft speed, compressor outlet temps compressor and turbine pressure ratios etc. We collect the following data streams typically:

Compressor Mass flow (certified meter)
Compressor inlet pressure
Compressor surge port pressure
Compressor outlet pressure
Compressor inlet temp
Compressor outlet temp
Turbo shaft speed
Turbine inlet pressure (both volutes)
Turbine outlet pressure
Turbine inlet temperature
Turbine outlet temperature
Intake manifold pressure
Intake port air temperature
engine oil pressure
turbocharger oil pressure
turbocharger oil inlet temperature
turbocharger thrust bearing temperature
turbocharger actuator linear position


With all these extra sensors (pretty sure I am forgetting a few) fitted the underhood gets a little busy with wires, but thats just part of the game when you get down and dirty and take the job of turbocharger testing as serious as we do. All these sensors are in addition to the typical sensors and data streams normally used to actually "manage" the operation of the engine. All this data is collected thru the Motec M800 ecu and a E888 expansion module which offer the highest data sampling rate possible in an application such as this. Having all this data is essential to product development and is directly responsible for the high performance of our turbochargers. Guess this is why people copy what we do year after year after year after year I am truly flattered!

Yea forgetting a few. . . NUMBERS . Joking here. But regardless of the quantity and quality of test perameters used, we're wanting the RESULTS of the testing: back pressure numbers specifically. Were CB's results with the evo or the DSM?

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

The FPwhite has a better flowing hotside. The twinscroll design makes backpressure practically a non-issue since no blowdown events affect any overlap events. Twinscroll tech is an amazing thing . . . I wouldn't hesitate to run a larger compressor on the 10cm^2 twinscroll td05hr housing/wheel. But most dsmer's here are stuck in the turbo dinosaur era and are happy to upgrade to the non-divided evo3 exhaust manifold.



Yea forgetting a few. . . NUMBERS . Joking here. But regardless of the quantity and quality of test perameters used, we're wanting the RESULTS of the testing: back pressure numbers specifically. Were CB's results with the evo or the DSM?

I agree I'd considered in the past trying to have a friend make a custom manifold to put a Evo 9 turbo comfortably on a DSM. Would be nice to have the response of the twin scroll 16G on my beater 1G. In the meantime I"ll just settle for a HTA68 though I guess.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, the benefit of the twinscroll manifold and housing here is that it flows MORE, immaterial of the better response. Maxing out the evo3 16g compressor wheel already sky rockets the backpressure and now you run a LARGER compressor on that same hotside?

You don't need a SMIM and exhaust manifold upgrade and bigger cams than hks272s that you will need to get around the clammy 16g hotside to see 47lb min with other turbos that spool a little later and are still very streetable. In the end, going a little bigger is significantly less expensive.

If you want a sleeper setup thats better than the evo3 16g, get the td06sl2 18g. It flows close to the same on the compressor and flows more on the exhaust side so you won't need to spend so much more to encourage a better overall VE. And it costs less . Or a "sleeper" 20g which has a compressor that flows more than this 68hta wheel and more on the hotside and costs about the same. Several shops can make this. Or ask FP to make you a td06sl2 68hta. . . THAT would be nice

 

[pboglio]

I'm not convinced another 3 lb/min from a bigger compressor is going to pose a problem. Yes, everybody is aware it is a somewhat restrictive turbine section combo, but guys who buy this turbo are doing so knowing there are compromises to be made.

If a guy were to flow limit himself to 44 lb/min on the 68HTA, would he not enjoy LESS backpressure than an EVOIII 16g at the same compressor flow?
That for me is an upside in itself, and I already know for fact the TD05H/7cm unclipped can flow that much no problem whatsoever.

 

[dsm-onster]

But I can't help it . A balanced turbo is so much better to me. Easier to make power, more linear powerband. I never did like those t3/t4 hybrids. Huge compressor flow and you still had to pay up the a$$ in other flow mods to see it. I'll take a little more lag to shift the power band, vs a SMIM and hotter cam that will shift the power band anyway.

If a guy were to flow limit himself to 44 lb/min on the 68HTA, would he not enjoy LESS backpressure than an EVOIII 16g at the same compressor flow?

You're assuming the 68hta compressor is more efficient at 44lb/min than the Td05H 16g6 compressor. Which it probably is. I'd like to see a compressor map of this. . . But that'll never happen.

 

[pboglio]

Well Matt, yes I'm assuming that FP stated a fact about their choke flow testing.
Since I personally did not witness it, its based on faith & credibility of the company. It pulled the expected +30 h.p. on the EVO platform, and breaking the +400 w.h.p. barrier on the WRX 7cm turbine housing platform with bolt ons. It is not a popular turbo because the EVO style turbos are just so darn close to it. This is the problem if you can call it that. I've never been a fan of the FP White, but then again you start maxxing an EVO style turbo and want stock response, you have to compromise somewhere. This is the boat I currently sit in.

Since I know what I pull on an EVOIII 16g, the 47 lb/min number is not scaring me that I couldn't pull that number the first minute its slapped onto my car, if that were to happen on my GSX. To be honest, with the Kelford 272s, I'm not sure the EVOIII 16g couldn't pull something close to that number anyways. I'm not worried about it.

I already own the 68HTA for my WRX STi, testing to happen next month.

 

[dsm-onster]

The evo platform made 30 whp more because of the better turbine housing design allowed it to though. I still feel its NOT worth the extra $325 in the dsm/evo1-3 turbine housing form. When the 7cm^2 open housing design makes more than 500whp (you mentioned 400whp which is not really a good point), then it will look worth it. After all it's not like you can't get a bigger, better flowing turbine wheel in the 7cm^2 dsm style housing. And it's not like you can't get an even higher flowing compressor wheel in the td05h compressor cover. and all for about the same price. all looks the same under the hood.