High boost 16G Pump gas tunes.... Enter

[Black_Bullet]

Ok sure i searched, not much info directly grouped together...
If you dont want to read all of this which isnt necessary skip to the sentence w/ the astrik.

I wanted to see if i can get a discussion going about tuning 16g setups on pump gas.
( 91-93 octane . )

Ive been having trouble dialing my car in without knock on anything over 20 psi ever since i got my bc0101s installed.... I want to run about 22 psi daily.

( i have full supporting mods, check profile...)

I have a smooth timing climb that goes to 17 degs peak. For me to get the 22psi kind of boost i want, I basically have to back my timing down to 13-14 degs or lower across the mid range or it will def start knocking and pulling timing.

This timing just seemed kind of low for me because my friend Drew who messes w/ and tunes dsms whom owns a little shop told me he's tuned a few guys out here with 16gs/50trims and the bc cams getting 3 or 4 more degs of timing than that on the same or even more boost w/ pump gas.

Before the cams I was getting away with 16-17 degs of timing mid range/ 19 peak on 20psi with zero knock. I didnt think the cams would increase cylinder pressure/ and lower knock threshhold that much.

From another source, I was told that over 15 degs timing mid range was high for pump gas and that much boost on the evo3. I was recommended as low as 11-12 degs in this load row...
Sounded pretty low to me, even though I know boost makes the most power, then timing.
Maybe he was just talking about lower timing thru the hardest torque of the engine...
Before anyone jumps to conclusions reguarding that recommendation, this is from one of the first guys to do 413 awhp on a 16g in a awd galant so im sure he knows what hes talking about.

I am only tuning with chips so its not very flexiable to do on the fly but my friend helps me reburn my own chips. I dont have a wideband yet unfortunantly so i cant dial in my afr the way they need to be which i am aware that is a big deal, but chip is set for 11.1 afr which is conservative and when i dynoed a couple months ago showed i was at 10.8 afr when they stuck the stick in the tail pipe... I am aware that my afr could very well be off worse now...

* Any one can comment on my post, but other than that just leave some info about what works with your engines doing high boost on pump gas. Maybe even some tips. If you have dyno numbers to back why what works better feel free...

Appreciated...

 

[FonZ454]

A larger(thicker) intercoler could definately help. I seem to run into knock at over 23psi (spikes)... And my timing is very conservative. I think 16* at the most.

Keep that intake air as cool as possible. Otherwise, I don't know what else to say. You have plenty of fuel.

BR7ES plugs(non projected)... for sure.

Otherwise, I'd be very interested to see what others say.

 

[pboglio]

Welcome to the club. I never found a solution for it myself with the HKS 264 cams I'm running. Pump gas is just so volatile. I've got datalogs showing the power curve with pump gas vs. pump gas/octane booster/xylene and the shape of the curve is radically different between them. This alone swore me off running aggressive on pump. By aggressive I mean 22-23 psi with +20* timing. Could try water/meth injection. I myself will run my own concoction of pump gas/lucas octane booster/paint thinner. Stuff works awesome.

What I did to help is run the obvious stuff: BPR7ES plugs, Seafoam thru the intake manifold (pcv port & fuel pressure vacuum port), cold air induction, eliminated ALL boost leaks. I also adjusted my injector deadtime to 450 us which helps with throttle response but also gets rid of any lean tip in, seams to help me quite a bit though the 02 sensor is on the verge of not cycling with this setting. Problem is I like to run lean at WOT and a lot of timing, on top of running some decent boost. There isn't any free ride, gotta give up something.

I noticed you run an FP exhaust manifold. My car HATED it with the amount of heat it generated in the engine compartment, even with my cold air intake setup. Got a heat shield for it?

 

[nikkeebabee]

I would look into getting a good intercooler and a better tuning device...

 

[Ben]

I'v been in that same boat. I was only able to run 13 psi with my new ebay 16g(with boost creep to 18 psi) It was fine at 13 til it started to climb.. TTHHHEEENNN HERE COMES THE KNOCK. So I was planning on ordering a basic meth kit, then BOOM I REMEMBERED!!!! oct booster. So then I search some on here and found some good info. long story short NOS brand oct booster raises the oct level by 6(not 6 points, 60 points)I run 92(the best we have here), so it's supposed to be 98 oct now. Who knows if it really does that much. There are some other brands, but I knew that auto zone carries the NOS brand. I poured some of that in with a new tank of 92. after a few miles I upped the boost to just under 20 psi in 3rd(and 22 psi in 4th)

ZERO KNOCK through 4th gear. I can only do it one time though before it knocks. I still have stock IC and piping. haha. I saw 19 deg of timing right at the top.

I'm sure with a better IC setup I will run a little more boost, but I'm happy with the 20 psi for now.

My mods are in my profile.
Using a logger and keydiver stg 3 chip

 

[Black_Bullet]

A larger(thicker) intercoler could definately help. I seem to run into knock at over 23psi (spikes)... And my timing is very conservative. I think 16* at the most.

Keep that intake air as cool as possible. Otherwise, I don't know what else to say. You have plenty of fuel.

BR7ES plugs(non projected)... for sure.

Otherwise, I'd be very interested to see what others say.

I run those plugs you mentioned gapped at like 28. I dont think going a colder range plug will help me. A bigger better intercooler would definitly help im sure,
but since I have a cold air intake my IAT at the sensor has dropped 40 degs from the stock set up. Sure its going to dramatically heat up going thru the turbo, but its going to still start 40 degs cooler which im sure is significant.
On cold night even after hard pulls i can immediately touch my upper intercooler pipe pre tb and its sometimes cool to the touch or only luke warm even with a heat soaked engine bay... I feel like something about the cylinder pressure increase of the cams just doesnt like any decent mid range timing now. Ive actually heard this before.

Welcome to the club. I never found a solution for it myself with the HKS 264 cams I'm running. Pump gas is just so volatile. I've got datalogs showing the power curve with pump gas vs. pump gas/octane booster/xylene and the shape of the curve is radically different between them. This alone swore me off running aggressive on pump. By aggressive I mean 22-23 psi with +20* timing. Could try water/meth injection. I myself will run my own concoction of pump gas/lucas octane booster/paint thinner. Stuff works awesome.

What I did to help is run the obvious stuff: BPR7ES plugs, Seafoam thru the intake manifold (pcv port & fuel pressure vacuum port), cold air induction, eliminated ALL boost leaks. I also adjusted my injector deadtime to 450 us which helps with throttle response but also gets rid of any lean tip in, seams to help me quite a bit though the 02 sensor is on the verge of not cycling with this setting. Problem is I like to run lean at WOT and a lot of timing, on top of running some decent boost. There isn't any free ride, gotta give up something.

I noticed you run an FP exhaust manifold. My car HATED it with the amount of heat it generated in the engine compartment, even with my cold air intake setup. Got a heat shield for it?

Funny you say that because i planned on getting a jmfab heatshield for the Fp manifold pretty much right after i order a wide band. I think getting better view of whats going on with my fuel should probably be my first step in this situation. I only have one small boost leak at the tb shaft seals, i didnt think it was a big deal. So exactly what kind of timing are you seeing with straight pump gas and no additives? Thru the mid range, and peak.....

ZERO KNOCK through 4th gear. I can only do it one time though before it knocks. I still have stock IC and piping. haha. I saw 19 deg of timing right at the top.

I'm sure with a better IC setup I will run a little more boost, but I'm happy with the 20 psi for now.

My mods are in my profile.
Using a logger and keydiver stg 3 chip

I didnt think any of those octane boosters were significant.

I would just richen up my tune on my chip to like 10.5 or 10.7 in the area of knock, but i dont know how rich im already running, and ive heard of rich knock before...

So what do you guys think of me dropping my mid range timing down to 12-13 degs to be safe, and upping boost to about 23 ( supposing that it doesnt knock of course.)
Do you think that doing so will be fruitless to gains, or will it only balance out power production pulling back timing that much for a few psi, OR is it more likely id still gain more power due to more mass flow...
Im sure low end would benefit with boost building better, perhaps less overall boost drop off even.... Im going to leave the timing at roughly 17-18 degs peak in the last load row because due to boost dropping it doesnt knock up there... Its just between 4800-5500 that i have all my problems....

 

[pboglio]

On pump gas I run probably 13-15* midrange timing, 18* peak on 21 psi.

At high boost timing don't mean squat, the boost is making up for it in spades and is SAFER to do so. I wouldn't have believed it myself by my last datalog kind of proved it. The extra boost made the lack of timing irrelavent (sp?). On lower boost I like alot of timing to keep the car crisper at WOT.

Octane boosters:

Lucas Octane boost works like nothing I've ever seen. I run 2 bottles per 16 gallons and supposedly is good for boosting 93 octane up to 98 octane. Cost is $8 bottle. I run 24 psi on pump gas with it. Works pretty good even on crap winter gas. The MMT thats in the octane boosters can create some very hard deposits and wear the rings and other moving components in the combustion chamber over time, but its better then a wasted piston.

I personally run 24 psi in the midrange dropping to 21 psi at redline with the above mentioned octane booster and the gains over running 20 psi feel huge. Car just hits like a big shot of nitrous. My DSMlink recorded 350 w.h.p./ 344 lb-ft at the wheels at the higher boost. My timing was maybe 12* at peak torque and the motor didn't give a crap cause it laid down some monster torque, peak timing was like 15* maybe. The extra boost completely makes up for the timing loss.

I advocate running more boost over timing, way more power to be made that way. Plus you have the option of also making power by leaning the motor out a bit more.

 

[Black_Bullet]

On pump gas I run probably 13-15* midrange timing, 18* peak on 21 psi.

At high boost timing don't mean squat, the boost is making up for it in spades and is SAFER to do so. I wouldn't have believed it myself by my last datalog kind of proved it. The extra boost made the lack of timing irrelavent (sp?). On lower boost I like alot of timing to keep the car crisper at WOT.

Octane boosters:

Lucas Octane boost works like nothing I've ever seen. I run 2 bottles per 16 gallons and supposedly is good for boosting 93 octane up to 98 octane. Cost is $8 bottle. I run 24 psi on pump gas with it. Works pretty good even on crap winter gas. The MMT thats in the octane boosters can create some very hard deposits and wear the rings and other moving components in the combustion chamber over time, but its better then a wasted piston.

I personally run 24 psi in the midrange dropping to 21 psi at redline with the above mentioned octane booster and the gains over running 20 psi feel huge. Car just hits like a big shot of nitrous. My DSMlink recorded 350 w.h.p./ 344 lb-ft at the wheels at the higher boost. My timing was maybe 12* at peak torque and the motor didn't give a crap cause it laid down some monster torque, peak timing was like 15* maybe. The extra boost completely makes up for the timing loss.

I advocate running more boost over timing, way more power to be made that way. Plus you have the option of also making power by leaning the motor out a bit more.

Awsome post

Considering you have higher compression thats still better than what im getting, but still that was the kind of information I was looking for. Ever since i did my CAI, my car creeps a psi or two in the higher gears on a cold night. I will just try to dial in a tune that wont knock on 24psi , so if it ever creeps up there when its cold i wont have to let off; and this should still give me a good 21-22 psi in the lower gears like 2nd & 3rd.
( External wastegate is in my soon future plans to get absolute boost control.)

Admittingly, my car does feel faster on more boost for sure even with timing lower, but i didnt want it to just be my perception and im putting more strain on the motor for no reason.... Glad to know timing isnt as big a deal on pump gas when trying to make more power.
* Pboglio what is your afr that you find to work with that kind of boost/ timing...?

You making 350 ish on a T28 pumpgas ( ? ) is nothing to sneeze at, thats impressive.
Once i get this thing retuned at 22-24 psi i will dyno, im hopeing id be near 320 awhp.
On a dynomite dyno ( which reads in between mustang ( low) and dynojet ( high) averages.)
I only managed 271 awhp/ 304 lbs-torque on 20 psi w/ 17 degs peak timing previously.
Now I have 272s and fp manifold so logic tells me i should be just above 300 awhp now.

I may give the lucus octane booster a try. I guess it wouldnt hurt, and if it works then that will be a good thing to have on those blistering hot Fl days...
* One bottle a half a tank is sufficient? I never fully fill up, i only go half way. You pour it before gas fill or after?

Ive also considered some sea foam engine cleaner.
Im on stock 1g pistons, last compression test resulted ( Cylinders 4 to 1 )
160,158,150,149...
Figured the 160 and the 158 was carbon build up.

Anyways thanks! Any more high boost 16g pump gas tuners please add to this thread.

 

[pboglio]

Yeah, pour it in BEFORE you fill, then fill it up. Gotta give the fuel pump a couple miles to let it mix up first. Then the results are pretty amazing. Not sure 1 bottle in a full tank is gonna cut it though, but it still does help out ALOT. I usually run 1 bottle on half a tank, or 2 bottles per 16 gallons.

Yeah, made that kind of power in colder weather though. What it took was a confidence that the motor would hold together upping the boost, that and some GOOD quality gas. I wouldn't even dream of running 24 psi on straight pump. I say that because I'm also a firm believer in running slightly lean, since race gas can tolerate it quite nicely. The power difference leaning the motor out is also unreal, probably 3 psi worth of power. You have no idea how much untapped power there is still left in your motor. Don't know what A/F's I run, I'm using standard 02 volts. Anything in the .88-.86 V range and the car starts flying on the topend on race gas or fortified pump gas.

On pump gas I've actually felt a slight power drop off going TOO lean, even without knockWTF But on race gas the car just kept getting faster. I'd imagine I'd go faster still but the risk isn't worth it. Thats why I push racing gas: Run as much boost as your turbo can whip out, run timing up to 23* on the topend, run leaner than you thought physically possible. Thats where all the power comes from.

What is great about the octane booster is that normally I have to lift in the middle of a pull cause of unexpected knock on pump gas. With fortified pump gas the car pulls harder cause of the extra timing, which does of course help, and the car feels at full strength. When I talk timing pull, I mean like 11* pulled back, which IS gonna hurt power. I'm strongly against high boost on pump gas alone.

 

[JayRolla]

Most I could get with 20* timing was about 18psi. I dont have timing control so I was running at 2* btdc and still hitting lots of timing.

My brother ran 22psi with timing pulled all the way with the greddy emanage. Not sure how low timing was bet guessing pretty damn low.

I actually have never gotten a perfect tune with zero knock on a 16g at anything above 18psi. I would always get some type of knock at different engine loads and gears.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Yeah, pour it in BEFORE you fill, then fill it up. Gotta give the fuel pump a couple miles to let it mix up first. Then the results are pretty amazing. Not sure 1 bottle in a full tank is gonna cut it though, but it still does help out ALOT. I usually run 1 bottle on half a tank, or 2 bottles per 16 gallons.

Yeah, made that kind of power in colder weather though. What it took was a confidence that the motor would hold together upping the boost, that and some GOOD quality gas. I wouldn't even dream of running 24 psi on straight pump. I say that because I'm also a firm believer in running slightly lean, since race gas can tolerate it quite nicely. The power difference leaning the motor out is also unreal, probably 3 psi worth of power. You have no idea how much untapped power there is still left in your motor. Don't know what A/F's I run, I'm using standard 02 volts. Anything in the .88-.86 V range and the car starts flying on the topend on race gas or fortified pump gas.

On pump gas I've actually felt a slight power drop off going TOO lean, even without knockWTF But on race gas the car just kept getting faster. I'd imagine I'd go faster still but the risk isn't worth it. Thats why I push racing gas: Run as much boost as your turbo can whip out, run timing up to 23* on the topend, run leaner than you thought physically possible. Thats where all the power comes from.

What is great about the octane booster is that normally I have to lift in the middle of a pull cause of unexpected knock on pump gas. With fortified pump gas the car pulls harder cause of the extra timing, which does of course help, and the car feels at full strength. When I talk timing pull, I mean like 11* pulled back, which IS gonna hurt power. I'm strongly against high boost on pump gas alone.

Well at 13-14 degs of timing mid range my car didnt knock at 20 psi with the cams, I dont know what the peak timing was that pull though, probably roughly 16-17 degs, and even then, i dont feel i couldve gotten away with any more timing on 20psi with pump unless my "unknown" afrs were changed...
I was thinking dropping back to 12-13 degs timing and richening up the chip to 10.7 vs the 11.1 and adding another psi or two...

Ive always heard leaning out your afr past a certain point added a lot of heat with not so negligible power gains. ( For instance going 11.3.1 afr to 11.7.1 wasnt worth much power gains.)
Im sure YMMV though since all cars like different tunes.

Most I could get with 20* timing was about 18psi. I dont have timing control so I was running at 2* btdc and still hitting lots of timing.

My brother ran 22psi with timing pulled all the way with the greddy emanage. Not sure how low timing was bet guessing pretty damn low.

I actually have never gotten a perfect tune with zero knock on a 16g at anything above 18psi. I would always get some type of knock at different engine loads and gears.

Well hey your about to run e85 now

Jayrolla, see if you can find out the timing your brother ran on 22psi and pump gas and his observation of how it felt. Any opinions will contribute.

Tonight i will try to redial in my car on more boost and see how it likes it.
I just have this feeling that i have more leeway in boost because my air temps are pretty good and my car
doesnt seem to mind more boost, it just doesnt like timing advance....

 

[Ben]

If you search for oct boosters on here you'll find some good stuff.
Within what you find, you'll find a list of oct boosters that raise the oct level 60 or so point instead of just 6 points like most oct boosters. 10 points to each level of octane.

 

[JayRolla]

He said the logger was reading still 20+* on the logger with timing pulled as far as it would go with the greddy. I didnt believe the logger though.

With the less timing and more boost I think it felt a lot better. If I had dsmlink I would run 14* timing max and as much boost as possible, maybe even 12*.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I will start my tuning tommorow, so far ive already bumped the timing down 1deg across the board.
Its sittign at 13-14 degs mid range, and slowly ramps up to 18degs after 6k.
Id imagen this will work with 20-21 psi, but im sure im going to have to knock off another deg of timing mid range to get that 22-23 psi that i want... Will find out tommorow about that.

What do you think the absolute lowest timing should be dropped down ?
I was thinking no lower than 10 degs before extremely high egts and other weird stuff starts happening....

 

[kahl23]

The intercooler makes all the difference. I just switched off my 16G for an FP3052, but back when we were running the 16G, we ran all day at 24 psi on 93 octane with no problems. If you can read DSMLink log files then I'll be more than happy to post my tunes up here. However, like I said, it sounds like you've got a heat soak issue, not a tuning issue.

 

[JayRolla]

I will start my tuning tommorow, so far ive already bumped the timing down 1deg across the board.
Its sittign at 13-14 degs mid range, and slowly ramps up to 18degs after 6k.
Id imagen this will work with 20-21 psi, but im sure im going to have to knock off another deg of timing mid range to get that 22-23 psi that i want... Will find out tommorow about that.

What do you think the absolute lowest timing should be dropped down ?
I was thinking no lower than 10 degs before extremely high egts and other weird stuff starts happening....

Have you thought of going with a meth kit, very cheap and affective. I bet you could get 24-26 psi with 20*+ timing.

 

[Black_Bullet]

The intercooler makes all the difference. I just switched off my 16G for an FP3052, but back when we were running the 16G, we ran all day at 24 psi on 93 octane with no problems. If you can read DSMLink log files then I'll be more than happy to post my tunes up here. However, like I said, it sounds like you've got a heat soak issue, not a tuning issue.

Yea im sure if i had one of those huge ETS monster race cores it would be a big difference and i could probably squeeze out another 3 psi with one of those babies, but actually my intercooler isnt heatsoaking yet. Its actually doing a decent job.
Kahl, just post your midrange and max type of timing adv you were running if you know. Im not too familur with dsmlink logs yet and not positive id be able to read it unless its similar to a mmcd type datalog or something. I tune off of a Eprom chip burner/ hex editer and evil scribe stuff.

Have you thought of going with a meth kit, very cheap and affective. I bet you could get 24-26 psi with 20*+ timing.

Yea ive thought of meth, but nothing that i am too interested in.
Maintenance, and what not, i just wanted e85 to put in the tank and only have to wonder about the next gas fill, my cars already ready for e85. Who knows , if i get pissed enough at my tuning results i may just do something like meth...

The octane boost stuff sounds like a decent idea for going to the track and harder carried out pump gas pulls.

 

[JayRolla]

The meth kit actually is easy and not much maintenance at all. It lasts a long time and you will start to check it every time you fill your gas. Then just make sure the nozzles dont get dirty and your set. If I was you I would go with a meth/water kit.

 

[Black_Bullet]

The meth kit actually is easy and not much maintenance at all. It lasts a long time and you will start to check it every time you fill your gas. Then just make sure the nozzles dont get dirty and your set. If I was you I would go with a meth/water kit.

Thanks for the help and reassurance... I have decieded to gone and do some thorough researching involving meth and I seem to like the Devils own injection kit.

After i get this car a paint job, and a wideband perhaps I will just gone and jump on the meth injection if i am still not happy with my tune by then. It doesnt seem to be at all irrational for my needs since their is no known date for when i have the opportunity to play with e85.

Ive decieded that since I have a knock buzzer that is set to alarm after anything over 10counts of knock ( which has proven reliable many times before. ) this will give me some relief about anything failing in the meth injection system as if it alarms I let off simple as that....

I didnt get a chance to do any pump gas tuning today but once i get some results i will post back and see what you guys think.

 

[turboglenn]

Thanks for the help and reassurance... I have decieded to gone and do some thorough researching involving meth and I seem to like the Devils own injection kit.

After i get this car a paint job, and a wideband perhaps I will just gone and jump on the meth injection if i am still not happy with my tune by then. It doesnt seem to be at all irrational for my needs since their is no known date for when i have the opportunity to play with e85.

Ive decieded that since I have a knock buzzer that is set to alarm after anything over 10counts of knock ( which has proven reliable many times before. ) this will give me some relief about anything failing in the meth injection system as if it alarms I let off simple as that....

I didnt get a chance to do any pump gas tuning today but once i get some results i will post back and see what you guys think.

You will not regret buying a devilsown kit!!! I have the base kit and love it. Just make sure to tell him instaed of the M3 nozzle, to take it out and throw in an M10. I run about 80/20 = meth/water mix and it has gotten rid of all detonation, and it made the car so rich i had to start leaning it out and it made huge power gains to the but dyno, by alowing me to run 12:1 AFR, 16* locked timing and 20psi with NO KNOCK, then my tranny broke. Now i have a new TRE trans and as soon as it's broken in i'm finishing my testing on how far you can push pump gas (91 oct here) + methanol/water mix. I'm a believer.. search the site for " meth water knock" those are the 3 terms i put in to search titles, and on pages 2 through 5 there was some really good info. especially from dsm-onster and one other guy who sid he was running high 20's timing, high 28'ish boost and 12.5:1 AFR. but was running 2 large nozzles of pure meth i believe they were an M7 and M10 nozzles and he was moving up to 14 or15 and a M17 for more boost and timing!

I'm still learning it. I wish i had done that search of the site before i dynoed my car the other day or i KNOW i would have made a good bit more HP at the same boost just by getting the meth/water mix right, praying the right amount and leaning it out on the meth. It's best to tune to the meth running 11.5:1 would be the richest if you don't see knock IMO.

gotta go, foods ready

 

[kahl23]

It's interesting, I forgot how conservative my timing is on pump gas. Here's a breakdown of my timing:

I'm running stock up to 3500 RPM
3500: 7 degrees (+2 degrees)
4000: 10 degrees (+2 degrees)
4500: 11 degrees (+2 degrees)
5000: 13 degrees (+2 degrees)
5500: 14 degrees (+1 degree)
6000: 16 degrees (+0 degrees)
6500: 17 degrees (+1 degree)
7000: 18 degrees (+2 degrees)
7500: 19 degrees (+ 3 degrees)
8000: 19 degrees (+ 3 degrees)

You'll notice that I dialed back the timing around 6000 RPM. That's because if I kept increasing at these RPM's, I would get 4 or five degrees of knock. You might want to try focusing on those RPMs where the knock is occuring, dial it back there and go as aggressive as you're comfortable going everywhere else. To be honest, I pulled these numbers off the pump gas tune I use for everyday driving. I think that I actually bumped everything except 6000 RPM up a degree or two without any problems and ran 12.5 in hot conditions over the summer.

 

[Black_Bullet]

You will not regret buying a devilsown kit!!! I have the base kit and love it. Just make sure to tell him instaed of the M3 nozzle, to take it out and throw in an M10. I run about 80/20 = meth/water mix and it has gotten rid of all detonation, and it made the car so rich i had to start leaning it out and it made huge power gains to the but dyno, by alowing me to run 12:1 AFR, 16* locked timing and 20psi with NO KNOCK, then my tranny broke. Now i have a new TRE trans and as soon as it's broken in i'm finishing my testing on how far you can push pump gas (91 oct here) + methanol/water mix. I'm a believer.. search the site for " meth water knock" those are the 3 terms i put in to search titles, and on pages 2 through 5 there was some really good info. especially from dsm-onster and one other guy who sid he was running high 20's timing, high 28'ish boost and 12.5:1 AFR. but was running 2 large nozzles of pure meth i believe they were an M7 and M10 nozzles and he was moving up to 14 or15 and a M17 for more boost and timing!

I'm still learning it. I wish i had done that search of the site before i dynoed my car the other day or i KNOW i would have made a good bit more HP at the same boost just by getting the meth/water mix right, praying the right amount and leaning it out on the meth. It's best to tune to the meth running 11.5:1 would be the richest if you don't see knock IMO.

gotta go, foods ready

Thanks for the info, I will do the search today under what you mentioned.
When if i get meth im aiming for 24psi - 24 degs peak timing - 11.6 ish afr.
Hoepfully just with the walmart windshield washer fluid i can get away with that but id probably need more meth than the 30 % that stuff is rated at.
It will be at least another 2 months minimum before i conclude to going that route, for now i just need to get the most out of my regular pump gas tune.

It's interesting, I forgot how conservative my timing is on pump gas. Here's a breakdown of my timing:

I'm running stock up to 3500 RPM
3500: 7 degrees (+2 degrees)
4000: 10 degrees (+2 degrees)
4500: 11 degrees (+2 degrees)
5000: 13 degrees (+2 degrees)
5500: 14 degrees (+1 degree)
6000: 16 degrees (+0 degrees)
6500: 17 degrees (+1 degree)
7000: 18 degrees (+2 degrees)
7500: 19 degrees (+ 3 degrees)
8000: 19 degrees (+ 3 degrees)

You'll notice that I dialed back the timing around 6000 RPM. That's because if I kept increasing at these RPM's, I would get 4 or five degrees of knock. You might want to try focusing on those RPMs where the knock is occuring, dial it back there and go as aggressive as you're comfortable going everywhere else. To be honest, I pulled these numbers off the pump gas tune I use for everyday driving. I think that I actually bumped everything except 6000 RPM up a degree or two without any problems and ran 12.5 in hot conditions over the summer.

Cool, looks very similar to the timing curve i just set last night
except my peak ends at 18 degs currently.
Maybe i should add another deg up there though considering my boost starts falling off pretty hard. I cant give anything more than 15 degs of timing between 5-6k at 20-21 psi or it will throw some knock. Tonight im going to try at it again and just do something like

4000 = 11
4500 = 11
5000 = 12
5500 = 13
6000 = 15
6500 = 17
7000 + = 18 degs

and by doing that i think i should be able to raise boost up to about 22 - 23 lbs
and if i can get away with under 5- 6 counts thru a fourth gear log at that psi i will just leave it like that and adjust fuel once i get a wide band.

Kahl, what boost are you running on that timing curve you listed?

 

[turboglenn]

BLack Bullet. MIx your own meth, the blue fluid didn't hardly help my car at all not to mention 3/4 a gallon of it about clogged my meth nozzle up (-20* stuff = 30% meth i think) Anyway, once the tank was only 1/4th full of "blue", i grabbed two bottles of heat from the gas station dumped them in and haven't knocked since. But one week of that's been waiting for a new tranny after blowing mine tuning a 20psi, 16* , 12.2:1 AFR third gear pull on 80/20 meth water (I'm estimating on the meth ratio) But on that run that blew the trans there was no knock what so ever.

The sooner you get the kit the sooner you will safely push higher #'s on pump gas. Just do your reading up on how to tune it and with it ..... I was osing power and gaining knock by tuning and then adding teh meth on top. I tuned a map that's 12:1 with the alky and it's pulling harder than ever at 14psi (i'm keeping it low right now while my trans breaks in).

I'm a firm believer in it. It won't hide flaws in your tune, it will more than likely bring them out, but if you tune right on it, you can do good things on pump gas!

 

[Black_Bullet]

BLack Bullet. MIx your own meth, the blue fluid didn't hardly help my car at all not to mention 3/4 a gallon of it about clogged my meth nozzle up (-20* stuff = 30% meth i think) Anyway, once the tank was only 1/4th full of "blue", i grabbed two bottles of heat from the gas station dumped them in and haven't knocked since. But one week of that's been waiting for a new tranny after blowing mine tuning a 20psi, 16* , 12.2:1 AFR third gear pull on 80/20 meth water (I'm estimating on the meth ratio) But on that run that blew the trans there was no knock what so ever.

The sooner you get the kit the sooner you will safely push higher #'s on pump gas. Just do your reading up on how to tune it and with it ..... I was osing power and gaining knock by tuning and then adding teh meth on top. I tuned a map that's 12:1 with the alky and it's pulling harder than ever at 14psi (i'm keeping it low right now while my trans breaks in).

I'm a firm believer in it. It won't hide flaws in your tune, it will more than likely bring them out, but if you tune right on it, you can do good things on pump gas!

Sorry to hear about your tranny... That sucks even worse considering your fwd and i wouldve figured the fwd guys trans lasted longer. I have a rebuilt tranny with double syncros but the main factor is i only have a 16g versus your 50 trim so i dont think i will be pushing any limits on that car.

To clarify your last post regarding the windshield washer fluid, you said that it doesnt have a significant effect for knock control? You also mentioned mixing it with Heat at the gas station? Sorry but i dont know what heat is at the momment, and also what other common safe mixes for this stuff are done that i wont be investing in a lot of to buy? So far my research shows me that water deals better w/ intake heat and cools things, and meth deals with the heat of combustion better so it can vary what mix is needed... Assuming id mainly aim for more timing and leaner afr's id probably need a higher percentage of meth mix.
( Perhaps im getting too far off subject in my own thread getting into meth talk.)

 

[turboglenn]

In theory and in real life a lot of guys are doing good on pure water. Myself i haven't tried that i used blue winshield fluid with a -20* rating ( said to only be 30% meth) when that tank got low on blue juice, i bought HEET it's a gas line anti freeze in a yellow bottle (only buy the yellow..the iso-heet in either red or orange bottles is completely different and not as good)

Anyway, with blue fluid i was getting more knock when it was turned on (but that was rich knock from going 10:1 with higher timing) During the time i was tuning it, i stopped into the store , got teh heet and poured it in. I went back out on the road and even at the same overly rich settings all knock went away. I've since leaned it down to run 12:1 AFR with the meth on under high boost. I've got the timing to 20* now, but my boost is low because of waiting on the trans to break in. I'm estimating the mix to be 80% meth 20% water, but either way, my car likes more meth and less water. I'm sure i could go to plain distilled water and get just as good of an effect, but then i'd have to learn how that re-acts and tune accordingly, just like i'm doing with the higher meth content now.

I prefer the higher meth for now and will run that till i hit limits or get bored and want to change for the hell of it. I can just save as many maps as i want.. I can have one for pump gas alone, one for pump+meth, and then one for pump+water but the nozzle size will be dramatically different with pure water ( you need less water to do the same job from what i've read)

Seriously did you search the three words i told you to on here and read up? Search "water meth knock" all together. You'll learn a lot! I did!

here's the link
pages 2 through 5 are the best.. some times it times out teh search and you have to re-enter the key words and search it over to staart back, but they are always in order from newest to oldest. Make sure to "search entire post" and not just titles only, i had that wrong last time i told you
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/search.php?searchid=4123276