E3 16G guys/16G guys, whats your timing advance on pump gas?

[a73_4g67]

E3 16G guys/16G guys, whats your timing advance on pump gas?

steve, andy.. please comment.

I'm undecided on what fuel and timing maps to use. I can extend the timing maps more than the stock USDM maps. USDM Maps are maxed at 29-31 lbs/min. I can take away timing to run 20-25psi on pump gas.
Now heres my question: What kind of timing is safe to run 20-25psi boost on 93-96 RON gas with the E3 16G?

Does this timing map applies at 20-25psi boost, 93-96 RON?

Highest level map:
option 1:
3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000 7500
6 7 8 10 10 15 16 18 19 19


or this...option 2:
3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000 7500
6 7 8 12 12 17 20 22 23 23

The 2nd map is the highest level timing map on the Evo 3 ECU. I dont plan to use the SAFC. I want to set it all in the ECU.

Fuel Map:

Evo 3 highest level fuel map: Is this ok?
3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000
11 10.63 10.45 10.12 9.65 9.41 9.41 9.22


Thanks in advance.




**************
Current setup:
FWD 1997 Lancer
stock JDM GVR-4 engine
2G MAF, stock IC pipes, will be upgrading to 2.25"
Evo 560 injectors set at 43psi base fuel pressure
255LPH pump, AFPR.
SAFC
Evo3 16G turbo
VR4 FMIC.(will upgrade into a bigger IC)
ECU-Eprom mods:2G MAF correction,injector and deadtime correction for 43psi base pressure,removed fuel cut.

 

[andymoraitis]

Alvin,

Here's a simple forumula to use:

1. Set the A/F correction factor to 11:1
2. Set boost to the desired level
3. Adjust timing until you see 2-3 counts of knock

Once you see 2-3 counts of knock, back the timing off one degree or reduce by one pound of boost to achieve zero knock since pump gas can be inconsistent. The general rule is that boost will make more power than timing on pump gas and that high timing and high boost are best on race gas. I would consider that if you don't have forged internals, it's not the greatest idea to go below 14 degrees of advance since less timing will make more heat in the motor. I would shoot for around 22-24 psi on an 11:1 with 16 degrees of timing.

As an example, I make more power at 22psi and 16 degrees of timing than I would at 16 psi and 23 degrees of advance. How much you can get away with is directly dependent on how well your setup keeps the air charge cooled, VE of the motor, fuel setup etc. There is no tried and true formula to allow you to run "x" timing so set the A/F first, set the boost level you want and tune for knock as mentioned above with as much timing as you can get away with.

Let me know if that helps,

Andy

 

[daren_p]

As a reference with boost set at 20 on my evoIII I see right around 20 deg of advance at redline. Tuned 11 to 1 on Ultra 94 without knock. More boost and you will probably need to run less timing, but its hard to say some cars really like timing while others don't. Best is to do what Andy has said.

 

[shortydtp]

on 91 octane I run 20psi with 14-15 degrees advance.

on 100ll i run 20-22 psi with 18-19 degrees advance.

and C16 i run 25 psi with 24-25 timing advance

this setups with 1 count of knock or less, except c16.... i get none!!

 

[a73_4g67]

Andy, daren_p, shortydtp thanks for the reply.


After gathering your input, I guess I have to run above 16 degrees of timing on 20psi .

"I would shoot for around 22-24 psi on an 11:1 with 16 degrees of timing." -- I'll try this.

 

[andymoraitis]

Alvin,

Just hit your target A/F and boost level and then lower the timing as needed. Just don't go below 14 on stock internals and remember it's boost over timing on pump.

Let us know how it goes,

Andy

 

[a73_4g67]

Andy,

On what RPM should I not go below 14 degrees? I plan not to go lower 20 lbs of boost and not to use fuel lower than 96 RON. I plan to use the Galant RS JDM fuel maps, they are a lot leaner than the USDM map. Around 10.1 at the highest load vs 9.3 of the USDM.

I will use the evo 3 map at the highest airflow level:

3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000 7500
6 7 8 12 12 17 20 22 23 23

If there'll be no knock, I'll be getting 22 degrees at 6.5krpm.

Oh by the way, what kind of timing maps are you guys using? Is it still the OEM?
So did you rewritten your timing maps when you went below 20 degrees on pump gas? From what I'm seeing, the last timing map on the 1G USDM ecu is at 20 degrees at 6.5k rpm. Thats the lowest you can get if you dont have knock. You can go higher through SAFC.

Alvin,

Just don't go below 14 on stock internals and remember it's boost over timing on pump.

Let us know how it goes,

Andy

 

[andymoraitis]

Alvin,

Don't go below 14 at max RPM. Since you have a 1G motor, you should be able to get away with more timing than I can since your octane is 96 vs. my 93 and your compression is 7.8:1 vs. my 8.8:1

I would think that at 20psi you'd be able to run 19-20 degrees on that octane, but if you find that you want to run 24 on pump, you may need to come down to 16. Also to answer your question, there's nothing stock about my maps. While they finish off at 16 degrees, there's more timing in the midrange than a stock map to take advantage of the torque that the 2.3 has.

Everything at this point is simply guessing until you set the A/F, set the boost and then log it and see what you can get away with.

 

[aero_sallee]

Alvin,

Don't go below 14 at max RPM. Since you have a 1G motor, you should be able to get away with more timing than I can since your octane is 96 vs. my 93 and your compression is 7.8:1 vs. my 8.8:1

He is quoting 96 RON, while your 93 is 93 (RON+MON)/2 His 96 may be lower octane than your 93.

 

[a73_4g67]

He is quoting 96 RON, while your 93 is 93 (RON+MON)/2 His 96 may be lower octane than your 93.

Thats another thing I'm worried. I'm not sure where Philippine 96 RON gas falls.

Some of my friends say Philippine 96 RON is no better than US 91-93.

Can I add 10% Methanol?