Timing amount on pump gas!

[Mark90gst]

Hey guys just wanted to know how much timing you guys have been running in your motor with pump gas 93 octane at see level conditions. Ive been tuning my ems to get the most out of the timing and boost, and i know you guys are going to say just watch out for knock and air fuel, but i was just wondering? thanks for the info.

 

[andymoraitis]

It all depends on the turbo since some of the larger ones are better on pump gas than units with smaller wheels that generate extreme heat at high boost levels.

I answered this a while back and you'll likely get some baseline information out of this thread:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1658205#post1658205

Truthfully though, you set the A/F to around 11-11.5:1, tune for about 18-19 degrees and see how much boost she'll tolerate before she hits 3-5 counts of knock. If you still have boost left before you run out of efficiency, provided the motor can take it, you would take away a bit of timing to 16-17 and add more psi since this will make more horsepower on pump gas than more timing and less boost.

Let me know if you have questions,

Andy

 

[Mark90gst]

the turbo is a precision 60 trim. Im running close to that amount of timing right now, no knock need to let the new motor fully break in before i put some more boost+timing to it. thanks for the info,
mark

 

[GVR4592]

I have the precision 60 trim as well. At sea level, 24-25 psi and about 15 degrees of timing on 92 octane.

 

[WikedSicc]

It all depends on the size of the turbo, and how to get into the efficiency range. When running a larger turbo, running a stoichiometricly efficient a/f is not the best way to tune. As for my personal setup, I have a fp3065 turbo. I run 28psi on pump gas. The way I do this is at a 10.5 a/f and about 8 degrees of timing. I know there will be those who post that this is not a good way to tune, but try thinking "outside the box". Tuning is purely a game of compensation. So say we setup an equation...

More boost = +100hp
Less timing = -25hp
Richer a/f = -25hp

Boost - timing - a/f = +50hp

So the more boost plus the less timing plus the richer a/f's allow you to come out on top.

The over compensation of boost thermodynamicaly yeilds a much larger combustion. This may be a little over the top, but I am sick of the "standard" tuning method. I run a 11.5 a/f on race gas. On my setup, I have not yet seen one person yeilding more whp than I.

 

[GVR4592]

On my setup, I have not yet seen one person yeilding more whp than I.

You aren't looking in the right places.

 

[Slippi84]

I will not dispute your tuning tip as everyone has tey're own way of tuning and as long as you make power it's good enough for you that's all that matters but to say 475whp on a 3065 is top notch is naieve. That is a 65lb/min turbo your flowing approximately 48lbs/min. That's a maxed out or close to it 50 trim your def not makin the most whp with a 3065.

 

[WikedSicc]

No, you misinterpeted my statement. I was not talking about the 3065 turbo in general, I was merely talking about my entire setup, due to the fact that I have multiple friends with very similar setups. Just a simple misunderstanding. I'm sure everyone is aware of how much intake/exhuast manifolds, porting, etc. .. make power. The statement you are contradicting really didn't need to be said and added really nothing to the thread, so my mistake on that for drawing attention away from the topic.

 

[GVR4592]

What specifically are you talking about? You aren't making much sense. I'm not trying to start an argument I just don't understand what you are saying.

 

[Black95TSIawd]

This guy on njdsm put down 468whp on pumpgas with the 3065. Food for thought.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Dre99gsx made 505whp 2+ years back on an AGP/Garrett 50-trim on 93octane with minimal timing advance (6deg) and 11:1 AFRs

 

[GVR4592]

What ever happened to Andre? Last I hear he was trying to sell his car with some new
2.4/GT35r setup.

 

[1SloColt]

On my setup, I have not yet seen one person yeilding more whp than I.

I have seen more power on pump with pretty much the same setup on lower boost.

 

[1LE]

Hey guys just wanted to know how much timing you guys have been running in your motor with pump gas 93 octane at see level conditions. Ive been tuning my ems to get the most out of the timing and boost, and i know you guys are going to say just watch out for knock and air fuel, but i was just wondering? thanks for the info.

32 degrees from 7k-8krpm. It's too much EGT's get quite high on those long straights at the local track...

 

[KAOTIC95gst]

on my 60-1 I have about 17 degrees of advance and a 11.2 AFR at 20 PSI

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

this guy's running an EMS (or so he says)... if he tries to put in the numbers you all are giving him, he'll be playing musical head gaskets more than driving.. haha..

If you're on an EMS and don't know how to do it, i suggest consulting a professional tuner.

realistically, the best way to explain it, is to watch the knock signal and play with it till it runs right. just takes time and getting used to.

 

[Mark90gst]

hold on buddy, you say, or he says hes running ems? you want me to take a picture of the box and the map sensor in my car? you want me to load a map of my ems? im running aem ems. and no i wasnt going to plug in any of those numbers! this was a simple question to get an idea of what people ran for timing, like my first post said, my motor isnt even broken in yet, and when i tune I will watch for knok as I increase timing, I was just wondering, why do you have to put me down like that.

 

[Mark90gst]

and as for your numbers on the fp3065, there all kind of low, I see 635-653 awhp on that turbo everytime my buddy's car goes to dyno. car rips.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

hold on buddy, you say, or he says hes running ems? you want me to take a picture of the box and the map sensor in my car? you want me to load a map of my ems? im running aem ems. and no i wasnt going to plug in any of those numbers! this was a simple question to get an idea of what people ran for timing, like my first post said, my motor isnt even broken in yet, and when i tune I will watch for knok as I increase timing, I was just wondering, why do you have to put me down like that.

your wording wasn't too clear. I assumed you were running an AEM EMS.. i've heard people refer to any engine management as EMS before, so i wasn't sure.

are you having any issues with how the car runs? tuners is probably not gonna have the best EMS support.

I'm not sure what the state of the drivability of your car is, i assume it already is driving well.. best advice i can give you is to play with the timing a couple cells at a time and watch for knock, and move around the different areas of the map till you feel you have a good map. this is under load.. light load and cruise and stuff that's not really a good way to do it, because with minimal load you're not gonna get knock. Hit me up if you want to discuss EMS stuff, I have been messing with one for a while as well.

 

[sp00ln]

Having a 2g, how many counts of knock will accure before timing is pulled?

 

[DSM90AWD]

and as for your numbers on the fp3065, there all kind of low, I see 635-653 awhp on that turbo everytime my buddy's car goes to dyno. car rips.

Maybe you should be asking him for timing advice

BTW, were those numbers with NOS? I've heard alot of good Dyno numbers comming from NE DSMers but they were using the FP3575

 

[andymoraitis]

Having a 2g, how many counts of knock will accure before timing is pulled?

The 2G ECU holds timing at 7 counts and retards 1 degree for every 3 following counts. So it would take 10 counts to pull one degree, 13 to pull 2 degrees, etc.

Cheers!

Andy

 

[dsm-onster]

The 2G ECU holds timing at 7 counts and retards 1 degree for every 3 following counts. So it would take 10 counts to pull one degree, 13 to pull 2 degrees, etc.

Cheers!

Andy

This is good to know. I did not know this!!! How's this w/ a 1G ecu? is the initial few counts of knock "ignored" like to 2G? I've only been tuning DSMLink for zero knock retard. . . I've never paid attention to the raw knock numbers since i've installed it.

 

[DSM90AWD]

On a 1G, the ECU will continue to advance timing when seeing 0-3 knock counts, stop advancing at 4-7 knock counts, and retard timing > 7 knock counts

 

[1LE]

The 2G ECU holds timing at 7 counts and retards 1 degree for every 3 following counts. So it would take 10 counts to pull one degree, 13 to pull 2 degrees, etc.y

My understanding is that it actually pulls 1/3 of a degree for every count of knock. A subtle distinction perhaps, but that's my understanding Don't know anything about "holds timing at 7 counts".