High boost 16G Pump gas tunes.... Enter

[kahl23]

Boost was set at somewhere between 25 and 26 psi, just at the limits of what the EVO III 16G can do efficiently (any higher and you're just blowing hot air). I thought of something else. I noticed that you're running 11.1 or richer AFR. Do you have a wideband? (I'm in a rush and can't go back and re-read the post, sorry). If you do, log that. Now, I'm sure what I'm about to say will draw a lot of criticism and arguments so let me just say right now that this is based on what I was taught by some of the best tuners in New England (Jewer, Burns, etc.) and my personal experience. It isn't only a lean condition that can cause knock, an overly rich condition can cause knock as well. If you can, try adjusting your fuel settings so you are running 11.6 afr without meth. Meth should make pump gas perform like race gas. To give you an idea, when I'm running C16, my afr is at 12.0 or 12.1. See if leaning it out in combination with that timing map gets rid of the knock.

EDIT: Just saw your last response and learned that you're planning to get a wideband. GET IT! That is by far the best single tuning aid out there. You can't do anything worthwhile until you get that. Once you do, try my suggestions above.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

It's tough to look at absolute timing numbers and take anything meaningful away from them. There are just too many variables... Base timing, placement of the marks on the pulley and the cheap plastic timing belt cover, slop in the crank or pulley key/slot, timing belt tension and amount of stretch, valve springs, cam gears, cam dowel pins, cam angle sensors themselves, spark plug type, actual AFR and distribution in the chamber, and so on. Run whatever timing numbers provide the most power while working within your personal tolerance for risk and goals. It will vary by a few degrees from car to car, I wouldn't worry about it.

A very efficient intercooler is a huge help. I've also had good results using non-projected spark plugs.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Boost was set at somewhere between 25 and 26 psi, just at the limits of what the EVO III 16G can do efficiently (any higher and you're just blowing hot air). I thought of something else. I noticed that you're running 11.1 or richer AFR. Do you have a wideband? (I'm in a rush and can't go back and re-read the post, sorry). If you do, log that. Now, I'm sure what I'm about to say will draw a lot of criticism and arguments so let me just say right now that this is based on what I was taught by some of the best tuners in New England (Jewer, Burns, etc.) and my personal experience. It isn't only a lean condition that can cause knock, an overly rich condition can cause knock as well. If you can, try adjusting your fuel settings so you are running 11.6 afr without meth. Meth should make pump gas perform like race gas. To give you an idea, when I'm running C16, my afr is at 12.0 or 12.1. See if leaning it out in combination with that timing map gets rid of the knock.

EDIT: Just saw your last response and learned that you're planning to get a wideband. GET IT! That is by far the best single tuning aid out there. You can't do anything worthwhile until you get that. Once you do, try my suggestions above.

Yea i definitly will get a wide band next. Depending how cheap I can find one, even as soon as this fri.
I was recommend the innovate widebands, and the zeitronics or something like that. Anyone got any links you can pm me/ or leave in this thread to which i should get thats the cheapest yet still ideal to buy . Also Kahl, thats some pretty good pump gas boost numbers you were running for 2g compression and the timing map you mentioned.... Regarding the rest of your post

I would just richen up my tune on my chip to like 10.5 or 10.7 in the area of knock, but i dont know how rich im already running, and ive heard of rich knock before...

Thats what i ment there ^ about the rich knock..

 

[Black_Bullet]

It's tough to look at absolute timing numbers and take anything meaningful away from them. There are just too many variables... Base timing, placement of the marks on the pulley and the cheap plastic timing belt cover, slop in the crank or pulley key/slot, timing belt tension and amount of stretch, valve springs, cam gears, cam dowel pins, cam angle sensors themselves, spark plug type, actual AFR and distribution in the chamber, and so on. Run whatever timing numbers provide the most power while working within your personal tolerance for risk and goals. It will vary by a few degrees from car to car, I wouldn't worry about it.

A very efficient intercooler is a huge help. I've also had good results using non-projected spark plugs.

Thanks for your post, i like reading your explainations.

I know i have ngk plugs right now gapped at like .28
Should i change my gap?

I didnt pay attention to the projected and non projected ordeal.

I see this site has non projected br7es NGK Spark Plug #BR7ES 1 Step Colder DSM/EVO, Non-Projected [BR7ES] - $2.50 : Jay Racing

but the ones i got in the car now are from autozone so i dont know.
Maybe i will just buy some new sparkplugs tommorow to make sure and see if it helps anything?

 

[kahl23]

There are plenty of discussions here about which wideband to buy, just do a search. The fact is that among the top brands, they are all high quality products. If you're looking for a good deal, check for a used unit here in the marketplace. You might need to buy a new sensor, which isn't cheap, but the end result should still save you some money.

 

[Black_Bullet]

There are plenty of discussions here about which wideband to buy, just do a search. The fact is that among the top brands, they are all high quality products. If you're looking for a good deal, check for a used unit here in the marketplace. You might need to buy a new sensor, which isn't cheap, but the end result should still save you some money.

Yea researching lead me to what i said about the zeitronics or the innovative widebands.
I wouldnt buy anything off the classifieds here unless it was from someone local. I was told i should ebay it though.

Are all the ngk BR7E's spark plugs non projected?
If i just went to buy some new ones in autozone tommorow do i have to ask for non projected? The ones in my engine now i never asked or knew anything about the projected tips at the time and just gapped them and dropped them in.

 

[kahl23]

Innovate Motorsports Wideband Air/Fuel Ratio Tuning


Right on the homepage you should see a box about a wideband shootout. Now, that company does sell widebands, and I think their own wideband won that comparo, so I would take whatever results you see there with a grain of salt, but still could have some useful info. We run a Techedge unit that isn't included in that test, never had any problems with it.

WBo2.com WIDEBAND AFR/LAMBDA (Tech Edge)

As for the plugs, I can't comment. A year or two ago we had a fairly large order from Slowboy and we just tossed a bunch of plugs in it to make sure we always had some spares, so right now we're running whatever Slowboy sells on their site.

 

[2gGSX]

Yea researching lead me to what i said about the zeitronics or the innovative widebands.
I wouldnt buy anything off the classifieds here unless it was from someone local. I was told i should ebay it though.

Are all the ngk BR7E's spark plugs non projected?
If i just went to buy some new ones in autozone tommorow do i have to ask for non projected? The ones in my engine now i never asked or knew anything about the projected tips at the time and just gapped them and dropped them in.

Yes. The "P" stands for projected.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Yes. The "P" stands for projected.

K thanks...

 

[Kevin Jewer]

If you just want to try it out to see if it helps, Advance Auto (and others I'm sure) stock BR8ES plugs. They are standard on some snow sled, lucky for us. I found that I can daily drive BR8s in the summer, but in the winter I get some cold idle missing so BR7s work better. Overall I feel that the lack of projection is worth more than the drop in heat range, so if the BR8s seem helpful the BR7s will probably work just as well for you. I do prefer the BR8s on the nitrous though for obvious reasons. I buy the BR7s by the case at Summit when I'm placing regular orders and get the BR8s locally at Advanced.

For gap, you generally run the biggest you can get away with without having high rpm/boost misfires. It won't affect knock, just misfires.

Don't look for the non-projected plugs to magically let you run 3 degrees more timing, but what I found is that the seemingly random knock every few pulls was gone, I get dead perfect consistency instead. Makes tuning timing up to the edge much safer and quicker.

 

[Black_Bullet]

If you just want to try it out to see if it helps, Advance Auto (and others I'm sure) stock BR8ES plugs. They are standard on some snow sled, lucky for us. I found that I can daily drive BR8s in the summer, but in the winter I get some cold idle missing so BR7s work better. Overall I feel that the lack of projection is worth more than the drop in heat range, so if the BR8s seem helpful the BR7s will probably work just as well for you. I do prefer the BR8s on the nitrous though for obvious reasons. I buy the BR7s by the case at Summit when I'm placing regular orders and get the BR8s locally at Advanced.

For gap, you generally run the biggest you can get away with without having high rpm/boost misfires. It won't affect knock, just misfires.

Don't look for the non-projected plugs to magically let you run 3 degrees more timing, but what I found is that the seemingly random knock every few pulls was gone, I get dead perfect consistency instead. Makes tuning timing up to the edge much safer and quicker.

Thanks, i will do the new plugs later today.
I did some more tuning last night and ive dialed in a tune that works with 23psi and its not pulling timing and actually feels great.... Untill boost starts dropping hard.
But in 4th and 5th it likes to spike 23lbs now and i get 5-6 counts of knock in the mid 4000 rpm range due to the 24psi spike, threfore im going to pull 1 deg in that spot, and then i think im going to go add one more deg of timing up top since boost is falling so fast. So far it doesnt mind 17-18 degs peak up top after 6500.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Ok new plugs are in ( BR7ES and i gapped them at '30-31 )
The old plugs i took out indeed were the BPR6ES and they werent gapped at 28 like i thought, they were at 34-35 ish ?

I will see how this feels on my car tonight. So far the car is likeing this lower timing in conjunction with higher boost. ( Spiking 23 and rapidly dropping to 17-18 by redline.)
Im thinking i will bump the boost up some more and see if it knocks on a 25psi spike, and if not leave it like that because I figure a 25lb spike will allow for the boost to hold slightly longer till redline and give more overall power. If i can even get it to do 20 to redline i think it would be great.

Thats all so far.
Working on getting the wideband ordered next week sometime so i can play with my fuel a little and thne a jmfab heatshield for the fp mani so i can drop engine bay temps some before the summer.

 

[2gGSX]

Ok new plugs are in ( BR7ES and i gapped them at '30-31 )
The old plugs i took out indeed were the BPR6ES and they werent gapped at 28 like i thought, they were at 34-35 ish ?

I will see how this feels on my car tonight. So far the car is likeing this lower timing in conjunction with higher boost. ( Spiking 23 and rapidly dropping to 17-18 by redline.)
Im thinking i will bump the boost up some more and see if it knocks on a 25psi spike, and if not leave it like that because I figure a 25lb spike will allow for the boost to hold slightly longer till redline and give more overall power. If i can even get it to do 20 to redline i think it would be great.

Thats all so far.
Working on getting the wideband ordered next week sometime so i can play with my fuel a little and thne a jmfab heatshield for the fp mani so i can drop engine bay temps some before the summer.

Just remember that the higher you boost the harder it is for your spark plugs to arc. You might start getting misfires, especially with a .031" gap.

Something to look out for!

 

[Black_Bullet]

Just remember that the higher you boost the harder it is for your spark plugs to arc. You might start getting misfires, especially with a .031" gap.

Something to look out for!

Ok, im aware thanks.

The bpr6es that i took out were gapped at .034-.035, and they've seen 24-25 psi max before with no misfires
so thats why i thought id try to get the gap at about .030'' on these new plugs. That may be the biggest gap i can go with the boost im going to run. ( 24lbs.)

The old plugs i took out were white on the projected tips. I did a 2nd gear pull before i took them out.
Maybe its burning a little leaner than i originally thought. ( Chip set at 11.0 ) At least i know its not a overly rich tune. But driving at cruising speed after the pull for about 2minutes as i was pulling into my neighborhood couldve skewed the plug color readings by the time i got home.

 

[Black_Bullet]

There was a big car meet this weekend that i was glad i got my car tuned out for.
Its called the Awd meet. Its the 2nd time they had it.
The first time and this time were huge turn outs; mainly of stis and evos, i saw 1 skyline R34,
a Audi, and a few dsms and what not.
Its a routed 4 hour cruise thru the hot spots of 2 larger countys/ and thru the city of my area, and averaging between 30-60 awd cars driving in a line and making various mapped out stops. Fun day...

Anyways, so i tried some of that nos octane booster stuff for this weekend and finished dialing in my tune pretty decently to handle a lot of boost...

So right now im seeing 25 psi falling to 20 by redline.
( Feels much faster than when it fell to 17lbs.)

I set my chip to the tune of 11.0 afr, 11 degs timing from 3500-5k
and then the timing slowly ramps up to 13 degs at 5500, and then 14 degs at 6k, and 17 degs at 6500,
and topping off with a decent peak timing adv of 19degs 7k+....

The mid range timing is pretty low for my compression ratio sure, but with 25 psi and less than 6-7 counts of knock on a full 4th gear pull it didnt pull timing. And i can say wow what a difference... The car feels nice, the information given to me in this thread was accurate, even with low timing adv, the boost makes up for it immensely. The whole powerband shifted with boost building so much faster, and the engine sounds like a 747 as it spools with these cams .

Anyways once i kill this tank of gas with the nos oct booster, im going to drop it to 24 psi and leave it there.
An educated guess would tell me I was at least laying down 320 awhp when it was at 25psi, and as light as my car is, that is a lot...

On some "spirited driving" on the highway during the awd meet i was laying the smack down on a few modded evos and stis some of which with slightly bigger turbos

 

[Black_Bullet]

Update

Think i am going to try some of the sea foam engine cleaner at the end of this week or so
to clean up any carbon deposits in the engine that may be causing hot spots.

My car is still running decent; a little different from day to day.
I dont care for the weak low end torque below 5k due to the low timing down there and the power lose from the straight 272s... After 5k the car rips though.
Due to two minor boost leaks ive found i dropped the boost back down
because 4th and 5th gear like to spike a good 2-3 psi more than the other gears, but i did get another deg of timing after 6500 with the boost decrease.

Once i fix my boost leaks, do the sea foam, jmFab heatshield ( engine bay gets real hot now )
and perhaps play with fuel a little more ( richer like 10.7-10.8 for more timing)
then im hopeing i can bump the boost back up to 24-25 with my added timing yet without the octane booster that i needed to run 25lbs previously...

 

[Black_Bullet]

I tried the seafoam. Smoked more than i thought it would wow .
Changing my oil tommorow mourning. Im not going to bother changing the spark plugs though.
I took it on the highway immediately after and blowed it out.

My car is set up and tuned pretty nicely but the only thing owning me right now other than crappy pump gas
is the fact that my 16g cant hold boost above 22lbs for squat.
Regardless of how much ive cranked it ( even 25psi ) it always falls back down to 20 ish by or before 7k.
Maybe 21 if it was cooler that night but no where near holding 24psi by 7k like some of the guys making the
heavy numbers on the 16gs.

I take it that they can hold that much to redline due to their peak boost blasting up to like 30-31 psi (max effort)

After a new clutch, my next aim is to get a gm maft and translator in blow thru and source together a cheap
02 mounted ( punishment ) external waste gate setup. Between those two mods i may be able to almost hold full boost to redline which would definitly increase top end...

Guess well see.