Help me build the best street motor I can

[Calan]

Here's where I'm at:

Motor and tranny are out, motor is torn down to a short block, ready to be sent to a local race shop for machining and rebuild along with the head and tranny. While that's being done over the next few months, I'll be rebuilding all the wiring and detailing the engine bay, and having misc small parts bead blasted and powder coated. I'll probably also replace the clutch cylinder, brake reservoir/soft lines (if not the whole cylinder), and the rubber portion of the clutch line. Other odds and ends include new SS lines for the fuel rail and AFPR.

My end goal is a very clean, reliable, and fun stoplight-to-stoplight car with a very occasional track day just for local bragging rights...somewhere in the area of a best pass netting me mid or maybe low 11's. Did I mention reliable? I installed new front axles, driveshaft, and suspension about a year ago...the tranny will be rebuilt with 4 spider diff, double synchros, etc.

I'm thinking around 450-500whp. I want something that spools decent and has as much low end torque as possible, without sacrificing everything up top. I can't really see myself ever pushing it past 7500rpms, but it would be nice to know it could stand a minor missed shift now and then. I'm also not a clutch dumper (at least with this car), and I'll probably stay with my 2600 at least for now; it still looks to be in good shape.

I already have fairly new FP cams (264/272 equivalents), and plan on keeping them if I can. I'll probably add adjustable cam gears so I can optimize the valve train (Fidanza's? They look good, nice specs, and great price, but I have no experience with ACG's).

What about the head itself? Beef it up with some titanium retainers, new guides and seals...maybe 1mm over valves? How about porting it? I'm planning on staying with the stock IM BTW.

I currently have a ported eIII16g/manny/and O2 housing. Obviously I need some more airflow, but I'd really like to stay with the eIII O2 housing footprint at least so I don't have to replace the DP that I just replaced when I went to the eIII setup . Maybe an FP Green or something similar in a BB?

How about the block and displacement? Stroke it? Forged pistons? Which turbo/engine combinations? (I plan on using ARP L19 head studs, and standard ARP for the rods and mains as well).

So throw some ideas at me. Leave nothing out...I want recommendations on everything from displacement to bearings . Although I can't afford the absolute best, I want the best components possible without crossing the point of diminishing returns. Like I said, I plan on it taking a while, so I'll wait a bit longer if it means getting the right parts (No corner cutting on this, cause I really don't want to go through it again any time soon...Did I mention I wanted it to be a reliable DD? ).

 

[90laserRSfwd]

Street Motor: 2.4L stroker / 9.5:1 compression / FP 18g6sl2 turbo / 272 cams / PTT twin disc clutch....

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Meh, my recipe:

6-bolt 2.3 w/ kiggly girdle / 9:1 comp / 18g6sl2 (or mhi evo3 16g) / FP3's or FP3x's / ACT 2600 (or 2900)

Coupled with E85 = win

 

[Jeff@Slowboy]

Depends on your budget, but I think a BC 2.5l kit would be good. We used one of these in our Evo and revved it to 8k all day long. 9:1-9.5:1 compression a good set of Manley I Beams, Ross or Wiseco Pistons. 35r with meth injection, no worries about spool time with that engine.

Oliver
[email protected]

 

[Calan]

Meh, my recipe:

6-bolt 2.3 w/ kiggly girdle / 9:1 comp / 18g6sl2 (or mhi evo3 16g) / FP3's or FP3x's / ACT 2600 (or 2900)

Coupled with E85 = win

Andrew... how would I get to 450-500whp with that e3 16g? And what's a kiggly girdle?

 

[Boosted98gsx]

With good tuning. Or if you wanted a bit of a smaller challenge, a GT30R would work well also.

 

[snowborder714]

Here's 2 threads on 450-500hp on a 16g.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/281031-new-16g-dyno-numbers-c16.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/292196-499awhp-16g.html

 

[Calan]

Wow... I didn't think it was possible. But that is reassuring, cause I'm already set up with the e3.

I was thinking more along the lines of less boost and something more pump gas friendly though.

 

[turboking15]

a 20g should be enough turbo to get you where you want and still be friendly

 

[Calan]

Here's 2 threads on 450-500hp on a 16g.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/281031-new-16g-dyno-numbers-c16.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/292196-499awhp-16g.html

Ok... that doesn't count... it's CB's car

 

[dsm-onster]

If you know what he knows, it does count . But does anyone?

The hx35 with the bep bolton housing keeps everything on the hotside the same including the o2 housing. And Boom! A 500whp turbo that spools like your evo3 16g. . . No Curt Brown Kung Fu , as awesome as he is. The hx35 in the bolton housing as done low 11s many times trapping 500whp speeds. And done it with the mods you've listed. I'd get the fp1 cam upgraded to an fp2, though. My fp2 cams are very streetable. . .

Don't waste your money on oversize valves with this goal. Just freshen up the block. Regular acl bearings and regular iron rings work fine. The hx35 does full boost by 3500rpms with a 2.0L motor. You have a 6bolt, it can tolerate 450whp all day long. And frequent track runs at 500whp. It looks to me like you have the right plan of attack for the drivetrain. Taking a stock drive train down the track in 11.1sec isn't good for driving it home if you've been doing for a few weekends over the last few months.

Morphius and I run the Holset mofia. We can help you. Any thing you wanna, we can geta for you .

 

[Calan]

Thanks Matt... after more reading, I'm kind of leaning towards a 2.3 stroker with maybe 9.0:1 or 9.5:1 CR. What do ya think?

Ross or Wiseco pistons?
Manley, Eagle, or stock rods? (probably "I" beam either way)
HG?
Clevite bearings?

Should I do anything to the head? (FP1 > FP2 intake cam change noted)

 

[dsm-onster]

9.5 and up? maybe look at running e85. The great thing about e85: more energy is released. So you get more power with the proper retune.

There's nothing wrong with a stroker. You'll have 14b boost response with turbos like the bolton hx35 or the s256. I jsut don't think it is neccesary. you could put your money elsewhere, like a smim to uncork the head. A stroker likes a smim. the higher velocity earlier goes well with the smim, big plenum and fat runners. But a 2.0L motor isn't unstreetable with a smim either. At the track you'll be shifting at 7k or so. You'll never up shift to a gear where the rpms is below the full spool of an hx35 s256 or the power band of fp2s or the power band of a smim. $1500 for a stroker kit is alot to get 20psi at 3K vs 3.5K, IMHO. No wif you wished to net much more power and wanted to run a much bigger turbo, I would say go for it.

I like the high compression pistons idea. . . with a fast spooling turbo that flows 50lb/min up top and an uncorked head, you have all the streetability you need. Spool at 3K would be icing on the cake. $1500 is expensive for icing. but you will be hitting 500whp earlier in the rpm range. . . better et with the same trap speed, if you have traction.

 

[need2boostpsi]

9.5 and up? maybe look at running e85. The great thing about e85: more energy is released. So you get more power with the proper retune.

There's nothing wrong with a stroker. You'll have 14b boost response with turbos like the bolton hx35 or the s256. I jsut don't think it is neccesary. you could put your money elsewhere, like a smim to uncork the head. A stroker likes a smim. the higher velocity earlier goes well with the smim, big plenum and fat runners. But a 2.0L motor isn't unstreetable with a smim either. At the track you'll be shifting at 7k or so. You'll never up shift to a gear where the rpms is below the full spool of an hx35 s256 or the power band of fp2s or the power band of a smim. $1500 for a stroker kit is alot to get 20psi at 3K vs 3.5K, IMHO. No wif you wished to net much more power and wanted to run a much bigger turbo, I would say go for it.

I like the high compression pistons idea. . . with a fast spooling turbo that flows 50lb/min up top and an uncorked head, you have all the streetability you need. Spool at 3K would be icing on the cake. $1500 is expensive for icing. but you will be hitting 500whp earlier in the rpm range. . . better et with the same trap speed, if you have traction.

I strongly agree with these statements. strokers are nice but you don't need to spend the extra $1500 for sooner spool and gobs of torque on the bottom end. some high compression pistons will more than make up for that and are much cheaper to go with.

 

[Calan]

Hmmm... ok. This is good info and why I started the thread

So something like 9.5:1, using my current crank. I still want to up the pistons and rods; should I go like .020 over and some nice forged Ross or Wisecos? Which rods?

I know "the stock motor is good for...". One issue is that this motor was rebuilt before I bought the car, but I have no idea what was used (and I have reason to believe it was done cheaply and without much attention to detail). So to be safe, I want to do it right this time.

Anyway... lets say I go with the 2.0l, 9.5:1 pistons, FP2 cams, stock IM (for now), and stay with the e3 turbo/manny/O2. What would typical response and power be with this setup? (potentially of course...I know it will come down to the details and the tune).

Either way, I'd probably want to go with a bigger turbo that would bolt up to my O2 housing, especially if I'm saving money on the block.

BTW - I'm also thinking of going with taller 1st and 5th gears in the tranny. (Evo - 10% I think?)


Thanks again guys.... keep it coming!

 

[Calan]

2.0L
9.0:1 Wiesco's
Eagle H-Beam rods
ACL Tri-metal race bearings
ARP head studs, mains, and rod bolts
Mitsu MLS HG
FP1/FP2 cams (or maybe changing out the FP1 for another FP2)
New valve seals and guides
BC stainless valves (standard size)
BC retainers and springs
Fidanza adjustable cam gears
Stock IM

Probably going to stick with my e16G for the time being, and then upgrade to a BWs256 or similar.

Any final thoughts? Sound like a good street combination? Is 9.0:1 too high or will I be good?

BTW - I'm documenting the entire project, including stripping and reconfiguring the firewall, etc. on my blog.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

I would still recommend the 2.3L. The low end torque you gain from the extra 12mm of stroke is night and day. No more waiting for a turbo to spool to accelerate.

remember you asked for a street motor, you want to be able to get away from a light w/o a turbo, get a stroker motor. Trust me, you'll never look back once you do!

Plus a stroker will make an evo3 hit 20psi before 3k rpms. You will be getting positive pressure in the 1.5k range, and the torque is ungodly. When you switch to a stroker, you will have a firm understanding of the difference between horsepower and torque.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

what did you decide on so far?

 

[Calan]

Damn it Andrew...

But seriously...really the only thing that swayed me away from the stroker is the extra $$$ for a crank (and Matt's post . I'm hoping that going to 9.0:1 slugs would give me some of the same benefit.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

9:1 compression is not going to increase the moment arm (distance from the center of rotating mass force is applied to which creates torque), only increase the force applied to the crank. Combine the two and you have a bad ass low end torque curve.

 

[slowgsr]

Ok... that doesn't count... it's CB's car

And besides, look at how the power and torque fall off the edge of a cliff.

Im running a stock motor making about 450whp on pump gas using a s258, great street motor. I also turn it to 7800 on stock valvetrain with fp2's.

Goodluck with your setup!

 

[Black_Bullet]

I dont think a stroker is nessecary either. A lot of newbies to high horsepower neglect to consider the drivetrain headaches you will go thru in these cars with 500+whp, and having a 2.3 engine on top of that will make for some pretty serious strain on these weak gears in the trans etc.
I just dont believe that excessive torque is something that should be desireable in a high powered dsm anymore, especially when you dont NEED it to run xx.xx time. Hell half of you arent going to run slicks on all fours anyways.

I may have missed a few posts as I skimmed thru the thread, but I wanted to ask what are your track goals. As far as 1/4 mile and or E.T. I mean to me this has always been much more important than what numbers the car might burp out on a dyno. This can also save you a lot of money in your build as you wont have to over build your car for a particular goal. ( Unless building a dyno queen is your thing.)

I think that a lot of people put too much money into their setup without actually truely figuring out what they want with their car as end goal, as far as how fast it can actually run, rather than what seems best/cool, and therefore thats why theres so many builds that are constantly RE-built over and over.

If you only want to run 11s dont get a big turbo. IMO EVO316 , S256 E.T., GT30r, or some sort of 50 trim is enough.
FWIW Im going for low 11s on the Evo316g and Im only a half a second away to accomplishing that goal, and theres still a lot I can do to this car to go faster while on this turbo.

If E85 is the fuel that will be used more than 60% of the time I wouldnt be scared to run high compression.
As of now I think my future build will consist of 10.1:1 C/R pistons, Eagle rods, and the rest of the OEM parts freshened up and thats it.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

I dont think a stroker is nessecary either. A lot of newbies to high horsepower neglect to consider the drivetrain headaches you will go thru in these cars with 500+whp, and having a 2.3 engine on top of that will make for some pretty serious strain on these weak gears in the trans etc.
I just dont believe that excessive torque is something that should be desireable in a high powered dsm anymore, especially when you dont NEED it to run xx.xx time. Hell half of you arent going to run slicks on all fours anyways.

I may have missed a few posts as I skimmed thru the thread, but I wanted to ask what are your track goals. As far as 1/4 mile and or E.T. I mean to me this has always been much more important than what numbers the car might burp out on a dyno. This can also save you a lot of money in your build as you wont have to over build your car for a particular goal. ( Unless building a dyno queen is your thing.)

I think that a lot of people put too much money into their setup without actually truely figuring out what they want with their car as end goal, as far as how fast it can actually run, rather than what seems best/cool, and therefore thats why theres so many builds that are constantly RE-built over and over.

If you only want to run 11s dont get a big turbo. IMO EVO316 , S256 E.T., GT30r, or some sort of 50 trim is enough.
FWIW Im going for low 11s on the Evo316g and Im only a half a second away to accomplishing that goal, and theres still a lot I can do to this car to go faster while on this turbo.

If E85 is the fuel that will be used more than 60% of the time I wouldnt be scared to run high compression.
As of now I think my future build will consist of 10.1:1 C/R pistons, Eagle rods, and the rest of the OEM parts freshened up and thats it.

Torque is torque, 500hp is 500hp, and it will be equal strain/stress on a drivetrain no matter where in the RPM band it happens. Putting the torque lower in the rpm band helps gas milage, and helps every day driving around town, and is adding no more problems than a 2.0 would at the same given power. I would much rather have my current 2.3L over a 2.0L any day of the week for a car that has to get around town. Waiting for a turbo to spool to be able to go anywhere with a car fawking sucks.

The only reason I would ever consider going back to a 2.0 after my stroker is if I needed an ultra high revving engine for a drag car.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Torque is torque, 500hp is 500hp, and it will be equal strain/stress on a drivetrain no matter where in the RPM band it happens. Putting the torque lower in the rpm band helps gas milage, and helps every day driving around town, and is adding no more problems than a 2.0 would at the same given power. I would much rather have my current 2.3L over a 2.0L any day of the week for a car that has to get around town. Waiting for a turbo to spool to be able to go anywhere with a car fawking sucks.

The only reason I would ever consider going back to a 2.0 after my stroker is if I needed an ultra high revving engine for a drag car.

Very good points. ^

Anyone real concerned about spool its probably because they have a huge turbo and they are driving around on the street a lot. Otherwise there are plenty of things that can be done to get a mild sized turbo setup to have quick enough spoolup and decent transient boost response.

Id think a significantly torquier motor shocks the drivetrain harder than one that delievers that same amount of torque thru higher rpm. Actually a stroked motor will have MORE torque than the smaller displacement motor. Your looking at a quick vicious torque peak versus a smooth linear torque curve. Stroking a DSM potientially you can make a 30r spool quick in like how a e316g would spool on a nonstroked motor. Pretty intense if you ask me.

What I was getting at in my other post is you dont need monsterous torque to run fast especially with features like stuttarbox and NLTS to were you build boost right off the line and dont loose much boost between shifts.
Amongst a lot of variables, having a stroker doesnt mean as much at the track. It likely isnt necessary and its a lot of money to dish out for a setup that doesnt need it.( my car in example wouldnt need it.)
Thats why I was asking/ emphasizing on what the goals were from the OP.

If you want a 35r or bigger "street" dsm and dont plan/need to rev past 8k then yea a 2.4 stroker would be ideal and a very intense setup. Quicker spool, harder hit, plus with wicket top end. But you cant tell me the drivetrain stress is the same as that car if it would've stayed 2.0.
I actually know of a few examples of how a stroker setup can be a little more taxing on these awd drivetrains over the 2.0 setup.

 

[Calan]

Update...

Well I went with a 2.3l stroker; Wiseco 8.8:1's, Eagle rods, and a new Eagle forged crank when I can afford it

Appreciate all the input as always