Help!! Lost reverse out of no where??

[black97spyder]

So I just bought a '90 awd talon and its been running and driving great.... until last night when I lost reverse completely. This is my first 5 speed DSM and first 1g that ive owned. I have 2 auto 2g's that ive been working on over the last 3 years.

The car has been slowly getting harder and harder to get into reverse over the last few days before I lost reverse completely. It acts like it engages all the way when I try to put it in reverse. When I go to release the clutch with the car in reverse, the car dies like the parking brake is on or is somehow stuck between 2 gears and doesn't even attempt to move backwards??

It has a short throw shifter with good shifter bushings (no excessive play from the bushings), has an ACT clutch with 4 puck disk and fidanza lightweight flywheel, and shifter cables seem to be in good shape (but the one that is closest to the drivers side has some side to side play in it).... it doesnt seem like the shifter cables or clutch because I can feel it go into gear (or seems like it).

i removed the inspection cover to see if one of the big nuts had came loose or backed off but it hadn't, both big nuts were tight and nothing had came apart visually from the inspection cover side.

Please help!! I am at a total loss here and have no clue where to look next

 

[92AWDHX40]

How about the condition of the tob?

 

[black97spyder]

Im not sure of the condition of the throw out bearing, I was told it needed a new one and got a new one with the car when I bought it. But it has been shifting fine in all the forward gears. Only problem with the whole car whatsoever is the reverse gear (and an oil and coolant leak but has nothing to do with my reverse problem)... common sense would tell me that if the TOB is bad it would affect all the gears not just reverse but like I said above this is my first 5 speed and first 1g so im just going off common sense, not facts. Im a complete newb when it comes to 5 speeds DSM's and 1g's (thought stuff would be more similar to the 2g's than what it actually is).

I have never heard of a car dying when releasing the clutch, esp in reverse (even if u revv the car up to 3k rpm and baby the clutch)... my dad is used to old school trannys out of v8's and he said the car is acting like it is stuck in 2 gears at the same time (which is causing it to die when releasing the clutch)

i really have no clue where to start looking next to try to fix it.

 

[92AWDHX40]

I would inspect the tob, and clutch systems and replace as needed get a oem tob.

 

[black97spyder]

How hard is it to drop a 1g awd tranny? Ive never removed just the tranny by itself before. I've only ever had to pull motor and trans all at once (1 time) and I have removed/installed just the engine by itself also.

also I don't know how to inspect the TOB, any advise?

 

[92AWDHX40]

Yes grab a Haynes manual and get a new tob from a vendor jnz, extremepsi, or stm, takes some time but it isn't bad at all a weekend for a newbie, me a few hours.

 

[black97spyder]

I can do it in a few hours as well, just was asking what all needs removed besides the tcase, axles, shifter cables and unbolting trans from the motor? I know the basic stuff that needs removed. I am not familiar with the clutch setup or how the 5 speed trans couples to the motor/clutch.

will I need to pull the tranny towards the passenger side and then drop it, or what? Im not that much of a newb, just learning the differences between the 1g and 2g's and 5 speeds (all ive owned is auto dsm's)

 

[92AWDHX40]

Yes a'll you mentioned.

 

[zcox122]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGDw73GoIeE&list=PL4B97C16D423317DD&index=1

Its on a 2g but he explains any differences. He has good videos for all awd 5speed stuff for dsms.

 

[pauleyman]

It can't be throwout bearing because all forward gears are fine. The problem would have to lie in the 5th reverse assembly or the reverse idler gear. You already took off the end case and the nuts aren't loose. Did you take off the 5th/reverse hub and sleeve and take a look? Reverse synchro and wavy washer are present. All else fails you'll have to take the transmission apart more than likely. I can think of no clutch related problem that would affect just one gear. It has to be inside. I'd say cable and shifter aren't it either because the car wouldn't die. It's not possible to put the car into two gears at once unless something is broken inside.

DId you check the reverse idler gear bolt on the back side of the transmission? Weird that it locks up. I'm still leaning towards something in the end case. I'd get another look at the 5/r hub and sleeve and the reverse synchro assembly. A quick visual of the 5/r rail movement wouldn't be a bad idea either though I don't think that's it either. Once a car is stuck in gear it typically stays there so it's not possible to get out of that gear and any other selected makes the car die as it's in two gears.

 

[black97spyder]

Pauleyman- no I did not dig any further into the trans after removing the inspection cover, all I did was check the two big nuts and make sure they weren't loose and then had my dad shift through the gears while I watched. Everything seemed to move normally which is why I didnt dig in any deeper... 5th and reverse synchro were all in one piece, in the proper place and had wave spring there too. And it was all moving how it was suppose to.


what does the reverse idler gear do? And where do I locate the bolt for it? (pics would be best for me if possible, as im a visual learner)

its just wierd that the car dies when I try to let the clutch out in reverse but no other gear, and it happened out of no where. It worked 2 days ago (had to use 2 hands to get it into reverse the last time It worked) and before that it slowly has been getting harder to get it into reverse since the day I bought it... I just figured I needed to adjust the clutch or shim the clutch a little bit to help it disengage from the motor easier but that should effect all gears not just reverse.

im kinda thinking the same as you, I think there is something broken on the inside of the trans.... but idk what the reverse idler gear does so it could be that also

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

His 5th/reverse slider and all components were in good condition and moved freely. He forgot to mention that when I (dad) went through the gears with the end cover off, it SEAMED to engage in reverse as I heard it distintively when I was next to the trans with my head in the passenger side wheel well. I accidently tried 5th and reverse with the end case off and popped one syncro keeper out and the retaining ring (he was worried, but I got it all back together and it is correct). His car absolutely will not move a bit when he engages reverse and I swear it acts like it is hung up in two gears and the trans is fighting itself. We didn't try to hard to make it work for fear of breaking internals that weren't already broke. I didn't check the cables, but he did and he is very accomplished with these little monsters even tho he hasn't owned a stick shift one. I am just chiming in to verify that all that he said was done was done and looked over thoroughly. Anybody???? Since he told me he had to almost force it into reverse, could it have broken a shift fork and part of it be bent? But why it would lock the transmission, just like he said, reminds me of the old SBC saginaw transmissions with a crappy shifter that would hang them in two gears at once and you would have to get under the car and put the shift arms in neutral then all was good again, but that was a totally different beast than these. I/we are open to any and all possibilities that anyone can put out there. Thanks to all.

 

[black97spyder]

Well I have an update.... I managed to find a way to get reverse to work. I have to put it in reverse real hard and then if I move the shifter like 1/4"-1/2" out of gear I can get reverse to work BUT if I try to let out the clutch all the way it kicks itself out of gear so I have to baby/ride the clutch (seems like I have to keep power off reverse gear to get it to work) to keep it in gear long enough to back out of wherever im parked.........

this stumps me even more, what could cause this problem?? And also where do I locate the reverse idler gear bolt, to check the tightness on it?

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Did you make sure reverse sensor is torqued with a washer?

 

[pauleyman]

My guess is a worn reverse gear and possibly worn intermediate shaft bearings. Reverse is activated by putting an idler gear between the 1/2sleeve and a fixed gear on the input shaft. If intermediate bearings are worn it moves the sleeve away from the gear. Worn gear is also harder to engage. Try putting yhe trans into any gear first then reverse. What this will do is make sure nothing is moving just before you try reverse. The reverse idler shaft is retained by a bolt on the backside of the trans. The diagrams in the factory manual are quite detailed (hint).

 

[black97spyder]

Urbansmoker1 - no I have not, are u referring to the reverse switch at the front of the trans? Im not sure what u are talking about.


Pauleyman - the car went from reverse working perfect to getting harder and harder to put into gear over about a weeks time... I have tried putting it into 5th before reverse every time (even when it worked). I don't think it is a worn gear or bearings (would make sense though), I believe my reverse idler gear bolt has came loose and is allowing excessive play in the trans when trying to activate/use reverse. BUT that's just my opinion and I dont know much about the 5 speed tranny's yet.

I also have a FSM for a '90 dsm and it shows how to center the shaft with a screwdriver but it does not show me the reverse idler gear bolt or its location (at least where I have looked through in the manual (tranny section).

I know the bolt is on the back of the trans, could you guys maybe show me a picture of the bolt and its location? Or give me a better idea where I need to look for it other than just telling me its on the back side of the trans.

 

[pauleyman]

There is only one bolt back there all by itself. Not much more I can say about it.

5th before reverse doesnt work well as thrre is a lockout on the 5th/r rail that makes you select center neutral first. If I recall its not possible to go 5 straight to R. Go like 4 to r or something.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

There is a sensor by the battery on the trans in the back it's one of two sensors in trans. This is a 5 speed right?

 

[keltalon]

So I just bought a '90 awd talon and its been running and driving great.... until last night when I lost reverse completely. This is my first 5 speed DSM and first 1g that ive owned. I have 2 auto 2g's that ive been working on over the last 3 years.

The car has been slowly getting harder and harder to get into reverse over the last few days before I lost reverse completely. It acts like it engages all the way when I try to put it in reverse. When I go to release the clutch with the car in reverse, the car dies like the parking brake is on or is somehow stuck between 2 gears and doesn't even attempt to move backwards??

It has a short throw shifter with good shifter bushings (no excessive play from the bushings), has an ACT clutch with 4 puck disk and fidanza lightweight flywheel, and shifter cables seem to be in good shape (but the one that is closest to the drivers side has some side to side play in it).... it doesnt seem like the shifter cables or clutch because I can feel it go into gear (or seems like it).

i removed the inspection cover to see if one of the big nuts had came loose or backed off but it hadn't, both big nuts were tight and nothing had came apart visually from the inspection cover side.

Please help!! I am at a total loss here and have no clue where to look next

Are you sure its not landing in 4th Check your tranny bushing and see if the rubber is all in tack!

 

[pauleyman]

That would make more sense. 4th gear from a stop wonnt do anything but kill the car. Put it in gear by hand then get in and start it and see if it drives in reverse. Will rule out alot of internal stuff if it drives.

Did you even check for a loose shifter at either end?

 

[black97spyder]

After the ice melts outside I will get under the car and check that bolt after using a screwdriver to center the shaft.

keltalon- it isnt going into 4th because I can pull it literally like 1/4" out of gear and it will move in reverse if I dont let out on the clutch all the way (if I release the clutch all the way the it will kick itself out of gear).... also when I have put it into 4th accidentally the car will try to move forward a little bit as im babying the clutch, when I release it in reverse without pulling it out of gear a little bit the trans acts locked and kills the car without budging an inch forward or backwards.

Pauleyman- I stated above that the shifter linkage on the trans that is closest to the engine block (drivers side) has some lateral play in it (like 3/8")... shifter cables are in good condition and shifter bushings are pretty good too

 

[keltalon]

After the ice melts outside I will get under the car and check that bolt after using a screwdriver to center the shaft.

keltalon- it isnt going into 4th because I can pull it literally like 1/4" out of gear and it will move in reverse if I dont let out on the clutch all the way (if I release the clutch all the way the it will kick itself out of gear).... also when I have put it into 4th accidentally the car will try to move forward a little bit as im babying the clutch, when I release it in reverse without pulling it out of gear a little bit the trans acts locked and kills the car without budging an inch forward or backwards.

Pauleyman- I stated above that the shifter linkage on the trans that is closest to the engine block (drivers side) has some lateral play in it (like 3/8")... shifter cables are in good condition and shifter bushings are pretty good too

Okay. Can you hold it tightly in gear and ease off he clutch t so it won't pop out of gear? The other thing that will allow it to pop is a taper bearing being out of specs "worn out"

 

[black97spyder]

I haven't tried to hold it in gear tight because I didnt want to make it worse. I just avoid parking spots where I have to back up until I figure out the problem... but it was fine and progressively got worse over about a weeks time (got harder and harder to put it into gear) till it got to the point I lost reverse completely.

 

[pauleyman]

Ok...now im back to worn bearings. Youll know eventually when the trans eats itself. You do not have to center that shaft. If the bolt is in it then its fine. I dont think much can happen even if it wasnt.if you cant put it in reverse engine off then start it in reverse I think you have no choice but to open it up.

 

[black97spyder]

Good thing i have an extra 1g 5 speed that I can swap out ... I am still just hoping it will be something simple, but with my luck it wont be.