1G Harmonic Balancer Recommendations

[XC92]

I'm about to replace all the timing-"associated" parts on my '92 Talon TSi AWD, e.g. TB, BB, pulleys, tensioner, WP, seals, belts, thermostat, etc., and realized that it's probably time to replace the harmonic balancer as well. It was replaced after the original one failed just over 18 years ago, and I don't know if they put in another OEM or an aftermarket one, so it seems like it's time especially since I have to take the existing one off.

In any case, the consensus seems to be either OEM or one of the really expensive fluid-dampened ones. The latter are too expensive and probably unnecessary for my stock setup that even if I even mod it won't ever go past 250-300hp. So it seems like OEM is the way to go. But it's $150, and RTM, a site vendor, sells an "OE-Style" one for $55.

RTM Racing :: MITSUBISHI / EAGLE :: DSM: 2g (1995-99) :: Engine :: Dampers, Pulleys :: OE-Style Harmonic Balancer (Crank Pulley): DSM/EVO 1-3

Does anyone know anything about it and whether it's one of the known aftermarket ones like Dorman or Dayco, and if it's any good? I'll spend the $150 if I have to, but I'm already way overbudget so if I can save the $100 with a decent non-OEM part, that would be nice.

Also, anything else to replace, while I'm in there, including bolts, nuts, washers, etc.?

To be complete, here's what I'm replacing:

• TB (EVO Kevlar)
• BB (Gates Racing)
• 3 Pulleys (OEM)
• Hydraulic Tensioner (OEM)
• Water Pump (Aisin)
• 5 Front Seals (OEM)
• 3 Drive Belts (Gates)
• Thermostat & Gasket (Stant)
• Harmonic Balancer (???)

What else? Maybe the tensioner arm/bracket?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I run the Dorman units. I do check them often since I twist the hell out of the motor but I see no signs of it separating. I like to always put a new unit on, even if it isn't an OEM one.

 

[XC92]

In older threads a lot of folks knock the Dormans, say they fail within days to weeks. Has their quality improved or were those unlucky outliers or perhaps due to improper installation of high-HP setups? You're not exactly a newbie here or to DSMs so I absolutely respect your opinion, just getting as much data as I can before deciding. Saving money is good, all other things considered!

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

A OEM unit would be great. I was at the end of my build and looked at my original and said "NAH" and ordered a generic unit. So far so good. With balance shafts deleted, that expensive unit would be good to dampen vibrations (the fluid damper), but I didn't use one. Since I have had a bad experience with the timing sprocket coming loose on the front of the crank, I take a good look at my balancer often and check the center bolt to make sure it isn't loose, like last time and took out all of my valves....

 

[XC92]

How do you torque down the crank bolt(s)? I've tended to resort to a 300ft-lb impact wrench since I could never figure out how to keep the crank pulley stationary. Do you have one of those tools that lock it down or use some other method? I think Pauley mentioned a method but I forgot it.

Also, do you know anything about the RTM non-OEM one?

 

[92AWDHX40]

Anything new is good versus older ones, i run fluidamper you can find some used.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

How do you torque down the crank bolt(s)? I've tended to resort to a 300ft-lb impact wrench since I could never figure out how to keep the crank pulley stationary. Do you have one of those tools that lock it down or use some other method? I think Pauley mentioned a method but I forgot it.

Also, do you know anything about the RTM non-OEM one?

I built a tool out of angle iron to bolt onto the front timing belt pulley and it also doubles as a pinion gear holder for our GM stuff. Flat iron would work too. Cut a semi-circle in it and drill 2 holes to bolt it to the pulley. I have also made a "tool" to hold the flexplate in place when I am working on an auto DSM. It was made out of the leftover parts of a 6 bolt oil pump pickup tube modification for the Kiggly girdle and bolts on where the transfer case will bolt and it jams itself into the flywheel teeth. Easy to use and remove as long as the transfer case is out of the car. I have a lot of "home made" tools for special projects.

 

[XC92]

So, rubber bands and twist-ties won't work, then?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Oh hell yeah, and TAKE PICTURES so we can all get a laugh!!!

 

[MattHDSM]

How do you torque down the crank bolt(s)? I've tended to resort to a 300ft-lb impact wrench since I could never figure out how to keep the crank pulley stationary. Do you have one of those tools that lock it down or use some other method? I think Pauley mentioned a method but I forgot it.

If the motor is in the car and on the ground, put the car in gear and your crankshaft should be "locked" in place. If the motor is out of the car, you'll either need the oem tool (MD998781) or fabricate something similar to hold either the flywheel or crankshaft from turning. I just copied the oem tool using a piece of scrap metal and drilled two holes.

Also, do you know anything about the RTM non-OEM one?

I'm doubtful there is anything wrong with the RTM one, otherwise they probably wouldn't sell it. Personally, I would (and did) upgrade from oem to a fluidampr. With a fluidampr, it's a one piece body so it won't come apart meaning it'll likely outlast the car. It is designed to dampen harmonics in the crankshaft at a wider range than the factory damper meaning if you decide to throw more power at the car in the future or do a BSE, it should (in theory) handle any newly introduced (or stronger) harmonics better than oem. It is also SFI approved which could be important if you take the car racing. It is expensive, but in my opinion, peace of mind is worth the investment in knowing I don't have to worry about it.

Either way, I think you should at least go with oem because at the very least you know it'll last just as long as the original and you won't be introducing any new uncertainty to your build, just be aware that it is a consumable and at some point in the future will need to be replaced.

 

[XC92]

If the motor is in the car and on the ground, put the car in gear and your crankshaft should be "locked" in place. If the motor is out of the car, you'll either need the oem tool (MD998781) or fabricate something similar to hold either the flywheel or crankshaft from turning. I just copied the oem tool using a piece of scrap metal and drilled two holes.

I'm doubtful there is anything wrong with the RTM one, otherwise they probably wouldn't sell it. Personally, I would (and did) upgrade from oem to a fluidampr. With a fluidampr, it's a one piece body so it won't come apart meaning it'll likely outlast the car. It is designed to dampen harmonics in the crankshaft at a wider range than the factory damper meaning if you decide to throw more power at the car in the future or do a BSE, it should (in theory) handle any newly introduced (or stronger) harmonics better than oem. It is also SFI approved which could be important if you take the car racing. It is expensive, but in my opinion, peace of mind is worth the investment in knowing I don't have to worry about it.

Either way, I think you should at least go with oem because at the very least you know it'll last just as long as the original and you won't be introducing any new uncertainty to your build, just be aware that it is a consumable and at some point in the future will need to be replaced.

If money wasn't an issue or it was pretty much essential (the way an OEM hydraulic tensioner is), I'd get the fluid one.

But money is an issue and it's not essential, especially for my stock setup.

So it's either OE or OEM, and I'm strongly leaning toward OE as $100 is a decent amount of money and RTM is a respected vendor that isn't known to sell junk.

And I was also going to buy something else from them (brass 1G clutch pedal bushing) so this piggybacks on the shipping costs.

Thanks for the feedback though. The more info, the better a decision I make. Also for the tip on torquing down the crank bolt.

 

[92AWDHX40]

e Oem tensioner or not at all, why chance it its 100 bucks or a lot more headache if chosen to use anything esle. To keep our cars reliable i wouldnt want to not spend the money where you should, or just wait till the funds are there. I learn to take my time and in most cases while your there. Ive replaced specifally all the bushings in the car and refubrished or touched up subframe parts all of them or poly ones. ive got some body work and rust repair over the winter to keeep her alive, this is one d27a worth saving. Got cheap just needed some tlc, and elbow grease.

 

[XC92]

e Oem tensioner or not at all, why chance it its 100 bucks or a lot more headache if chosen to use anything esle. To keep our cars reliable i wouldnt want to not spend the money where you should, or just wait till the funds are there. I learn to take my time and in most cases while your there. Ive replaced specifally all the bushings in the car and refubrished or touched up subframe parts all of them or poly ones. ive got some body work and rust repair over the winter to keeep her alive, this is one d27a worth saving. Got cheap just needed some tlc, and elbow grease.

I wouldn't otherwise but it's RTM, not eBay or Bezos.

 

[fwdmaster]

Oem or if you have the extra money go with fluidampr. Piece of mind

 

[Dericsh]

I bought oem, I think I read those same threads you did about the dorman failures when I made that decision.

 

[XC92]

Does anyone have links to studies of the actual harmonics of using the various balancer/dampener options out there for DSMs? I mean with math and data and all that fancy stuff. It's more out of curiosity than anything as I can't afford or justify a fluid damper (and assume it's not needed on my stock turbo setup).

And I can see why many prefer calling them dampeners than balancers. The flywheel is really more of a balancer, balancing out the non-constant torque output of the crankshaft, by storing the energy of each piston stroke, so that the trans gets a more steady power input than it would without one, and, I assume, also preventing the engine from destroying itself eventually.

But the crank pulley, whether rubber, poly, fluid or gel-based, I assume, dampens the sudden power strokes of the engine as pistons fire, kind of the way that spring-loaded clutch discs do, so there's less shock to the system. Do I have this more or less right? If so, I'm wondering what studies show about various dampeners and how well they dampen at various power outputs and RPMs.

It's very rusty but my HS and college diff eq courses might make such studies semi-intelligible for me, and perhaps even useful.

I also wonder if it's possible, in theory at least, to design a flywheel and dampener combo that would completely or effectively smooth out and dampen the power output of a reciprocating engine so that it would put out a totally or effectively linear output, like a rocket or turbine engine (but not an electric motor, even a brushless AC one) with fancy feedback-based mechanisms, kind of the mechanical version of an electronic rectifier.

Again, just curious. Surely it's been looked into.

 

[Kryndon]

The flywheel is really more of a balancer, balancing out the non-constant torque output of the crankshaft, by storing the energy of each piston stroke, so that the trans gets a more steady power input than it would without one, and, I assume, also preventing the engine from destroying itself eventually.

The crankshaft counterweights (the big chunky things sticking out of it) are what balance out its rotation. Each crank is self balanced and not dependent on the flywheel. The flywheel itself helps with retaining inertial torque during shifts and helps with cruising and lessening the load on the engine to a slight degree.

But the crank pulley, whether rubber, poly, fluid or gel-based, I assume, dampens the sudden power strokes of the engine as pistons fire, kind of the way that spring-loaded clutch discs do, so there's less shock to the system. Do I have this more or less right? If so, I'm wondering what studies show about various dampeners and how well they dampen at various power outputs and RPMs.

That's pretty much it. Your first statement and this one essentially explain what the harmonic balancer does. It helps greatly smoothen and ease the sudden torsional forces exerted onto the crankshaft by each firing cycle, as it wants to twist in motion at each journal. So far it is widely accepted that the best type of balancer you can run is a fluidampr-style, where it has an inner flywheel (inside the balancer) which interfaces with a silicone fluid (best damping media available). Kind of like a wet clutch on a motorbike. Some OEMs do use fluid-style harmonic balancers but those are of course the most expensive. Most use elastomer-type, which are the ones found on our cars, with rubber sandwiched between two metal pulleys. The third type is frictional.

Secondary and tertiary engine vibrations are handled by the use of the two balancer shafts on our inline-4 engines.

I also wonder if it's possible, in theory at least, to design a flywheel and dampener combo that would completely or effectively smooth out and dampen the power output of a reciprocating engine so that it would put out a totally or effectively linear output, like a rocket or turbine engine (but not an electric motor, even a brushless AC one) with fancy feedback-based mechanisms, kind of the mechanical version of an electronic rectifier.

Fully, 100%? No, not in an ICE that is. But you can definitely get extremely smooth engine configurations, both in terms of primary and secondary/tertiary vibrations. Crankshaft harmonics remain a physical phenomenon which affect its operation.

 

[XC92]

The crankshaft counterweights (the big chunky things sticking out of it) are what balance out its rotation. Each crank is self balanced and not dependent on the flywheel. The flywheel itself helps with retaining inertial torque during shifts and helps with cruising and lessening the load on the engine to a slight degree.

That's pretty much it. Your first statement and this one essentially explain what the harmonic balancer does. It helps greatly smoothen and ease the sudden torsional forces exerted onto the crankshaft by each firing cycle, as it wants to twist in motion at each journal. So far it is widely accepted that the best type of balancer you can run is a fluidampr-style, where it has an inner flywheel (inside the balancer) which interfaces with a silicone fluid (best damping media available). Kind of like a wet clutch on a motorbike. Some OEMs do use fluid-style harmonic balancers but those are of course the most expensive. Most use elastomer-type, which are the ones found on our cars, with rubber sandwiched between two metal pulleys. The third type is frictional.

Secondary and tertiary engine vibrations are handled by the use of the two balancer shafts on our inline-4 engines.


Fully, 100%? No, not in an ICE that is. But you can definitely get extremely smooth engine configurations, both in terms of primary and secondary/tertiary vibrations. Crankshaft harmonics remain a physical phenomenon which affect its operation.

I realize that the crankshaft has counterweights to balance out the actual rotation so you don't get the unbalanced missing fan blade issue. But that has to do with rotational balance, so the engine doesn't destroy itself nearly instantly.

I was referring to the flywheel's ability to partially counter the inherently non-linear power output of a piston (as opposed to rotary or turbine) engine, with power generated on each power stroke and inertia in-between. The flywheel smooths this out partially through its rotating inertial mass. Thus, "balance".

As for a fully balanced, dampened, etc., I was thinking in terms of a set of solutions that would come close to 100%, including not only counterweights, a heavy enough flywheel, and fluid damper, but also a set of counterweights within the damper itself that moved closer to or further away from the center axis, depending on the RPMs, using centrifugal force.

The higher the RPMs, the further out the weights would move, and vice-versa. They'd be held in place by some sort of spring on either end, whether metal coil, fluid, pneumatic or elastometer. I seem to recall such a setup in other parts of some cars, but don't remember which. Perhaps stationary bike trainers?

Anyway, just spitballing. None of this has anything to do with real-world stuff.

If the motor is in the car and on the ground, put the car in gear and your crankshaft should be "locked" in place. If the motor is out of the car, you'll either need the oem tool (MD998781) or fabricate something similar to hold either the flywheel or crankshaft from turning. I just copied the oem tool using a piece of scrap metal and drilled two holes.

I'm doubtful there is anything wrong with the RTM one, otherwise they probably wouldn't sell it. Personally, I would (and did) upgrade from oem to a fluidampr. With a fluidampr, it's a one piece body so it won't come apart meaning it'll likely outlast the car. It is designed to dampen harmonics in the crankshaft at a wider range than the factory damper meaning if you decide to throw more power at the car in the future or do a BSE, it should (in theory) handle any newly introduced (or stronger) harmonics better than oem. It is also SFI approved which could be important if you take the car racing. It is expensive, but in my opinion, peace of mind is worth the investment in knowing I don't have to worry about it.

Either way, I think you should at least go with oem because at the very least you know it'll last just as long as the original and you won't be introducing any new uncertainty to your build, just be aware that it is a consumable and at some point in the future will need to be replaced.

Oem or if you have the extra money go with fluidampr. Piece of mind

I checked with RTM and their version is not OEM grade. They stand by it and said they've never had a customer complain about it, but I shouldn't expect OEM quality at that price, which of course makes sense. I'd probably be OK with it, but everyone's probably right and I should get at least OEM for peace of mind, especially given all the work I've done and money I've spent on restoring it.

And I'm increasingly leaning towards the Fluidampr one, because it's basically a lifetime product and a far more elegant solution than the OEM rubber-based one, just not now as it's pretty expensive at nearly $400. I'm thinking stick with the current HB and keep a close eye on it, and inspect it when I remove it to do the TB job, and when I feel I can justify buying the Fluidampr one, go for it.

I'm wondering though, I'm running basically stock now, ~200HP tops. If I ever modded the car it would be fairly modest, no more than 250-300HP, because I just won't even need or want more power and because I'd have to upgrade the trans if I went much over this, and I really don't want to do that. At what HP level do you really start to need a fluid-based HB and not a rubber-based one?

e Oem tensioner or not at all, why chance it its 100 bucks or a lot more headache if chosen to use anything esle. To keep our cars reliable i wouldnt want to not spend the money where you should, or just wait till the funds are there. I learn to take my time and in most cases while your there. Ive replaced specifally all the bushings in the car and refubrished or touched up subframe parts all of them or poly ones. ive got some body work and rust repair over the winter to keeep her alive, this is one d27a worth saving. Got cheap just needed some tlc, and elbow grease.

I agree that one should spend the necessary funds where it matters, to the extent that one can afford to do so, and maybe put it off for as long as possible until the money's there. I've also done a lot of the sort of work you've done, replacing most of the bushings, ball joints, link connectors, removed structural and suspension parts to clean, derust and paint them (for rust protection mostly but also because I like having a nice and clean-looking underside).

When I started working on the car last year I started with the underside, e.g. rust-removal and prevention, new bushings, BJs, etc., complete rebuild of all 4 calipers including new pads, rotors and hoses, complete rebuild of all 4 strut assemblies, etc. It's only later that I finally got to replacing the worn clutch, rebuilding the trans, and now a complete TB job (all belts, pulleys, tensioner, WP, seals, etc.). I actually still have a bit of work to do on the rear, but it's not as essential and can wait a bit.

And, of course, replacing the HB, either OEM or fluid. That too can wait. A bit.

 

[BLACK'98DSM]

From my experience everything Dorman makes has been trash. From crankshaft sensors to door handles, every Dorman product I ever bought has been thrown in the scrap pile after a temperorary use. Maybe their harmonic balancer is a different story. But based on the low quality of their other products I'll never buy anything else Dorman.

 

[XC92]

From my experience everything Dorman makes has been trash. From crankshaft sensors to door handles, every Dorman product I ever bought has been thrown in the scrap pile after a temperorary use. Maybe their harmonic balancer is a different story. But based on the low quality of their other products I'll never buy anything else Dorman.

I've already ruled it out. It's either OEM or fluid.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Well you got your choices.

 

[Kryndon]

I went with one bought from CNS Autoparts back in 2017. I was in the UK and bought it from the States. I believe it's a part made in the USA; looked like a quality balancer, had adequate balancing marks and so far after almost 4 years the rubber still looks intact and no signs of separation. The balancer does not wobble side to side like the worn OEM one I had. That thing shook like crazy and produced a very noticeable and odd vibration + sound at a specific RPM range no matter what gear you were in.

I'm not saying buy from CNS, but for $25 bucks I couldn't find a better deal. Either get something along those lines or jump straight to a fluidampr. I'm probably gonna get a used fluidampr at some point, maybe before the next timing belt change.

 

[XC92]

At this point I might as well get at least OEM, but I might put it off if the current one still looks ok when I remove it.

Well you got your choices.

I do indeed.

 

[We're on Boost]

If you think you might want to buy a Fluidamper, you might want to look into the modification to the timing belt cover that people say you need to do for it. Just to see what it is and if it is something you would want to do. @iugrad92turbo @1cleangsx and @DSMPT have Fluidampers on 1g's.

 

[92AWDHX40]

I already installed it in the car just some trimming I did to the cover.