GSTwithPSI Galant VR4 1837 of 2000

[We're on Boost]

Oh darn it I was hoping it would work out with the single 340 feeding the A1000, even though the numbers didn't look very good.
Did you do some kind of test with it to decide that it wasn't going to go very well that way?

 

[boostdawd]

Is it just me or is anyone else not able to see the images?

 

[Dsmkauai]

No pics was just posting that too! I wanna see haha

 

[We're on Boost]

I don't see any pictures either haha!

Happy New Year though!

 

[GST with PSI]

@boostdawd @Dsmkauai @We're on Boost. Sorry, dudes. Images fixed. Google is acting a fool, apparently...

Oh darn it I was hoping it would work out with the single 340 feeding the A1000, even though the numbers didn't look very good.
Did you do some kind of test with it to decide that it wasn't going to go very well that way?

I initially installed the A1000 with my single 340 and did some driving/testing. The car ran fine, but I could tell by my logs the A1000 wasn't moving the amount of fuel is should have been. I saw only a slight drop in my IDCs (about 5%-10%), whereas I should have seen a fairly dramatic decrease (or at least, that's my assumption). At that point, I had to accept what the math was telling me, and needed to come up with something that would sufficiently feed the A1000 from the stock tank setup. As I said before, I was pretty dead set on sticking with Aeromotive pumps, so the only real option was the addition of another 340 in-tank. Either that, or add a fuel cell, which certainly isn't happening. If you take a look at the pics above of the A1000 installed, you'll notice a smaller -6AN feed pictured (black 90 fitting), which was my initial attempt. As mentioned above, I've since upgraded to a -8AN feed to give the dual pumps some room to push (sorry, crappy pic):

I have all morning to play with the tune, so I should have some updates soon on how the new fuel setup performs. I'm hoping for a significant drop in IDCs while hopefully maintaining good drivebility as well.

 

[boostdawd]

Really nice setup. I was thinking of using the y AN fitting your using for my double pumper as well but it would've made the setup maybe twice in cost.

Question on the 6AN outlets from the hanger. Are those AN fittings with the nut at the bottom or how did u weld them in?

 

[GST with PSI]

Really nice setup. I was thinking of using the y AN fitting your using for my double pumper as well but it would've made the setup maybe twice in cost.

Question on the 6AN outlets from the hanger. Are those AN fittings with the nut at the bottom or how did u weld them in?

Regarding cost, this definitely isn't cheap. The pumps plus all of the fittings, lines and parts will run you around $350 bucks. If you factor in the cost of a new A1000, that figure doubles.

I bought steel -6AN fittings with the intention of welding them in. That's how I did my last hanger. I drill the hanger to fit the fittings, then tap the hole so everything is nice and tight even prior to welding. However, this time around, I found the fittings were nice and snug after installing the hose barbs on the back side of each fitting. I contemplated just doing a few small tack welds just to hold the fittings in place, but decided that wasn't even required. In the end I was satisfied with the fit and seal of the fittings, so no welding was required.




I spent a good amount of seat time in the Galant today dialing in the tune on the new fuel setup. In short, the previous pump setup was seriously lacking. Here are some 3rd gear pull screenshots which show the overall drop in IDCs:

3rd gear pull on 1650s and a single in-tank Aeromotive 340 (50PSI BFP). InjDuty @ 106.5%:

3rd gear pull on 1650s and a single in-tank Aeromotive 340 + an Aeromotive A1000 plumbed in series (50PSI BF). InjDuty @ 97.1%:

3rd gear pull on 1650s and dual in-tank Aeromotive 340s + an Aeromotive A1000 plumbed in series (50PSI BF). InjDuty @ 68%.

In summary, I went from a single Aeromotive 340, to an Aeromotive 340 plus the A1000, and then to dual Aeromotive 340's plus the A1000. Each time, I saw a decrease in IDCs. This isn't rocket science, but it's pretty cool to actually see the real world results!

With the new fuel setup, I was able to drop my global fuel down dramatically. As a result, the car needed a completely new tune. I've got the tune pretty close, but I need to make some more adjustments to my global fuel in order to get my VE table back to scale. My current table has a max VE of only 88, so I need to make the proper adjustments to global fuel to bring that closer to 100. If you're wondering why airflow is reading so low, that's why.

Anyways, another project done, and plenty of knowledge gained in the process.

 

[Vegas Smith]

Why didn't you go with the walbro 450? Wouldn't it meet your goal? Or is this your ricer setup ?

 

[GST with PSI]

Why didn't you go with the walbro 450? Wouldn't it meet your goal? Or is this your ricer setup ?

Because according to Walbro their 450 only flows just over 275lph @ 80PSI, so no, it would not meet my goals. Besides, like I said, I wanted to stick with Aeromotive pumps...And I'm not sad I did either, even if they do cost a few bucks more. Aeromotive makes good shit, and I like building with good shit.

There are probably 100 different pump combos that could be implemented here. I know @twicks69 was posting about this kind of stuff back in 09', so this concept certainly isn't new: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/dual-in-tank-255hps-in-2g-for-quad-fuel-pump-setup.348587/

I've only ever been accused of being a ricer by one person. Doesn't make a bit of sense, just like everything else that comes out of his mouth. I do my thing regardless of what the peanut gallery thinks. Run tell that

 

[We're on Boost]

Nice, and thanks for the pics and the testing!

Looks really good and man you work fast.

Wow, yes, I would have to say that with IDC of 97.1% when you tried the single in-tank Aeromotive 340 + an Aeromotive A1000 plumbed in series, there was definitely something not right with that.

I am not really interested in going to a fuel cell or a separate surge tank, so I’m very interested in these types of fuel systems that go beyond what most people do with a stock tank.

Glad you mentioned twicks69, because about 5 weeks ago I PMed him to get an update on his 4 Walbro system, since I know his profile is not 100% up to date (there’s a lot there ).

He is still using it, and with 2 fuel rails, primary and secondary.

Basically he has one series pair (one intank to one inline) of 255’s feeding the primary rail,
And,
Another series pair (one intank to one inline) of 255’s feeding the secondary rail.
The secondary pair is switched on and off by his AEM EMS.
He figures 1200 whp on race gas on his high boost settings.

Quote from Tim: “I have essentially two fuel systems. The primary rail is -6an feed with 255hp intank to 255 inline in series with 2200cc injectors. The secondary fuel rail is identical with 1000cc injectors.
It is wired up on a triple relay setup, I originally had all 4 pumps running to a single rail, and changed it later to two rails. The secondary system now turns on via secondary fuel map toggle in aem based on load.”

Fun with fuel!

 

[Vegas Smith]

Hey don't give us your ricer excuses pal! Just kidding, I guess I used the wrong calculator because the last time I talked to you about your pump, I went and did the research and concluded that the 450 would be enough for me. I may have been looking at the 13.5 volt chart Walbro posted and you're right it wont flow that much. Anyways, it never occurred to me how expensive it can get to run e85.

 

[GST with PSI]

I guess I used the wrong calculator because the last time I talked to you about your pump, I went and did the research and concluded that the 450 would be enough for me. I may have been looking at the 13.5 volt chart Walbro posted and you're right it wont flow that much. Anyways, it never occurred to me how expensive it can get to run e85.

Fuel type is the biggest factor, but required flow also greatly depends on your base fuel pressure and boost level.

37 PSI BFP, at say, 20 PSI would require a significantly less robust fuel system than say, 50 BFP @ 30 PSI of boost.

Building a fuel system that will support your build is just like selecting a turbo, or implementing almost any other modification. It needs's to be tailored to the build based on your goals for the car.

Hopefully my endeavors here help others in their own efforts. I know I learned some good information in the process.

 

[Vegas Smith]

After having read all of the fuel pump posts I now realize that the Walbro 450 question was a stupid one . I'm glad you did the duel-hanger because I think that will be my next project as well. You may have the record for most fuel pumps on a DSM though. Great info on this thread.

 

[GST with PSI]

You may have the record for most fuel pumps on a DSM though.

Nope, see my post above. Tim is running 4 pumps.

 

[Vegas Smith]

Nope, see my post above. Tim is running 4 pumps.

You know how guys exaggerate though

 

[twicks69]

Well, last time I checked, I'm still running 4 fuel pumps. Granted, only 2 run full-time currently until around 45psi, then the other two turn on for the secondary rail. I typically run 93-octane or e85 on the street or a mix of that for up to around 35psi (e85 I have run up to around 45psi), and then on c16/e85 50/50 mix I have maxed out the primary fuel system at 1020AWHP/730ishTQ on 48psi (100+% duty cycle on 2200cc's with primary rail and intank/inline pump setup). I would max out my turbo (cast wheel 177101 Borg Warner S475) around the 62psi range with the current 5-bar map sensor. In the past I have made around 720AWHP safely on 1000's with the same fuel pumps so I don't think fuel volume is an issue. If I ever max out the turbo I have a billet compressor hi-flow wheel on the shelf to eek a bit more out of the old dog turbo. Personally, its not worth going full tilt since driveline parts break faster and I'd rather just enjoy driving my car than fixing it regularly. Even then, you really don't need more than about 500AWHP on the street anyways, it just gets completely stupid to drive past that power level all the time.

 

[ilikejesus]

probally one of my favorite cars on here would love to find one one of these days

 

[boostdawd]

@twicks69 Do u mind sharing pics of your fuel setup or going over the wiring? Interested on how u got it all mocked up. Forgive me if the info is already posted.

 

[twicks69]

@twicks69 Do u mind sharing pics of your fuel setup or going over the wiring? Interested on how u got it all mocked up. Forgive me if the info is already posted.

i did this like 8 years ago; i think i already have photos and details on this forum; i'll check. I know I had posts on it in 2009 on here. heres one thread on it - http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/dual-in-tank-255hps-in-2g-for-quad-fuel-pump-setup.348587/


I ran into restrictions with the 1000cc primary injectors with the stock full blown pickup assembly at 766AWHP, then restrictions with the stock full blown pickup assembly at 779AWHP with 1350's, then made flow adjustments to the pickup assembly and got it to 835AWHP, then I later changed to a fuel cell with the modified full blown in-tank pickup assembly on 2200cc injectors and made 1020AWHP at 48psi.

My full blown pickup assembly is modified to go in my fuel cell with the siphon assembly and fuel level assembly removed, then the fuel feeds from the pumps that are side-flowing out of the pickup assembly were plugged and I drilled and tapped the top of the pickup assembly to put in straight adaptor fittings as a top feed from each in-tank fuel pump to 90* -6AN hose end fittings to the fuel feed lines to each Walbro 255HP in-line GSL392 fuel pump with -6AN adaptor fittings, to in-line fuel filters, to -6AN feed to each fuel rail. Each fuel rail return line is -6AN going to the fuel pressure regulator at a base pressure of 45psi, to -8AN return line to the fuel cell.

The fuel pumps are triple-relay wired with a primary switching relay (#1), then a primary fuel pump assembly relay (primary rail in-tank and in-line pumps #2) and a secondary fuel pump assembly relay (secondary rail in-tank and in-line pumps #3).

Originally when I was running all 4 pumps full time to a single rail I had the #1 relay two #87 wires being the signal wire turning on the #86 pins of #2 and #3 relays simultaneously. Since I have the AEM turn on the secondary pump relay as the signal wire, the wiring off the primary #1 relay is only using 1x #87 signal to the #2 relay #86 pin, and the #3 relay is getting signal from the ECU to the #86 pin to turn on the secondary pumps.


I use Signal-Stat 192 relays, with a 60A primary fuse to #1 relay #30 pin, and then I have in-line 30A fuses for the power to each #2 and #3 relay #30 pin power wires.

#30 = power wire from battery (fused)
#85 = ground wire
#86 = signal wire (I used the MPI relay as the signal source at key-on; fuel pump signal wire)
#87 / #87 (2 on each relay - Signal-Stat 192 relay) to power (+) of each fuel pump attached

The power is 8-gauge and grounds are 8-gauge from all relays to a 4-gauge chassis ground.


The fuel tank pickup assembly plumbing pictures are showing the first version of the side-outlet fittings that ended up being a flow restriction and was plugged and tapped for top feed outlets to 90* hose fittings which ended up resolving the flow restriction.

 

[GST with PSI]

Since I have the AEM turn on the secondary pump relay as the signal wire, the wiring off the primary #1 relay is only using 1x #87 signal to the #2 relay #86 pin, and the #3 relay is getting signal from the ECU to the #86 pin to turn on the secondary pumps.

Tim, what are you using as a trigger?

 

[twicks69]

Tim, what are you using as a trigger?

Just an output wire from the AEM to send signal to the #3 relay.

 

[boostdawd]

Really nice work. Thanks for posting the pictures and sharing your setup. I'm working on a dual pump hanger myself. Running 2 Walbro 255lph hp on 2 relays. Only one is running as the primary and have the other set to come on using ecm link's nos control. Haven't ran them yet but looking forward to how it works this summer. Probably don't need to for an hx35 but I had the parts laying around so might as well right .

 

[GST with PSI]

Just an output wire from the AEM to send signal to the #3 relay.

No, I mean what parameter are you using to trigger it? Boost pressure, fuel pressure, RPM?

 

[GST with PSI]

I've been patiently waiting to get my hands on a new Ecliptech Shift-P2. Ecliptech has been working hard to put out the new revised unit after they stopped making the Shift-I, and it really shows with their new unit. Mine finally arrived from Australia, and I'm really happy with it. Long gone are my days staring down at the tach. The nice bright progressive LEDs let you keep your eyes on the track, and not on the tach

Additionally, you can monitor battery voltage in real time, as well as configure some other inputs. Pretty cool little unit!

 

[95eclipser]

Very cool

Just watched the video, I like how it looks installed, you did a good job to make it look factory.