ECMlink Global fuel wayyy off

[We're on Boost]

ok guys i think its just about ready for ricky, i took out on the main road and it did pretty damn well, definitely needs more adjustment when going from driving to parking, it seems to bog down a bit, the afrs seemed pretty good whenever i could look at them, its like 105 degrees today so shes getting a bit hot i wish i couldve gone out for a bit longer

105 degrees, sheesh, I think that's too hot to fly at some of the pilot schools down there.

Anyway, in this last log it still seems kind of erratic. And it quit running at 470 secs but it restarted right away. There's a consistently large negative fuel trim at 1000 rpm idle, but in the other areas it's just kind of erratic. Usually it seems pretty good when throttle is 25% to 35%. Justin's cams are stock 1g (I think) so that would idle quite different from yours.
This screen shot is what was suggested by SD VE adjust(combinedFT). It does suggest a couple of large changes in the 1000 rpm column, and smaller changes elsewhere. You could make these changes but I don't know if you will even notice a difference in how it drives.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I don't see the TPSDelta doing you much good. I've noticed that before, it just doesn't seem to do much.
I wonder about your injectors - did you buy them new? If you got them used, they might need to be cleaned and flow tested. Rust in the tanks of these old cars gets loose, goes right through the fuel filter, and ends up in the injectors.
Never-the-less, maybe it is time to take it to Ricky.

its a brand new lc-2, it has a calibration section in the manual but my buddy said he never calibrated his and it seems to work fine out of the box

New, good!

it has an internal wastegate but i have that stuck fully closed and am running an external summit unit,

Wow, could you show us a shot of that?

for a controller i have the newer profec unit that worked great on my gst, im interested however if using the ECMLINK built in controller would be beneficial

Oh, I imagine the Profec is Ok, although I've never used one. If you are used to the Profec and it works ok then I don't think you would need to change that.

 

[lololobster]

Wow, could you show us a shot of that?

Its a bolt going through a plate to slam it shut until i decide i want to keep this turbo setup, eventually it will be welded

You can see its pretty close to the rad, the internal gate would hit pretty bad, i already had to flip that fan to a pusher

the injectors have just been cleaned also

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[We're on Boost]

Where did you put the external wastegate? That's what I really meant. You must have cooked up a way to put the external gate onto the exhaust manifold, somewhere. But where?

Good that the injectors were cleaned!

 

[lololobster]

\

Where did you put the external wastegate? That's what I really meant. You must have cooked up a way to put the external gate onto the exhaust manifold, somewhere. But where?

Good that the injectors were cleaned!

oh i got you, its an older MAP manifold

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[We're on Boost]

oh i got you, its an older MAP manifold

Wow that one picture answers a lot of questions I've had all through this thread!
Ok so I see it's a proper, in fact really nice, stainless tubular manifold that was made with a wastegate attach flange on the collector. Just like it should be! And MAP has always been a pretty good place for DSM stuff.
Your overall configuration is just like mine. Just different components.

I think I see why you are running into the radiator with things. The manifold looks like it comes forward quite a ways, so the turbo would be farther forward than you would really want it to be in a road car. And maybe the external wastegate was running into the PS pump or something over there?

When you have a dull minute or 2 you should juice up your Specs & Photos page! That page is where everybody looks first when trying to help somebody, and your page is pretty empty. This picture is the first thing I'd put there. Plus listing some of the more basic non-stock things like the cams and the specific turbo. Lots of other non-stock stuff I see in there too.

 

[lololobster]

I think I see why you are running into the radiator with things. The manifold looks like it comes forward quite a ways, so the turbo would be farther forward than you would really want it to be in a road car. And maybe the external wastegate was running into the PS pump or something over there?

yes it was meant for a bigger turbo than i have but it was a screaming deal so im making do, and for the PS im not sure, i did the prius EPS conversion before the car ever had an engine

When you have a dull minute or 2 you should juice up your Specs & Photos page! That page is where everybody looks first when trying to help somebody, and your page is pretty empty. This picture is the first thing I'd put there. Plus listing some of the more basic non-stock things like the cams and the specific turbo. Lots of other non-stock stuff I see in there too.

as for this i definitely will

 

[jed344]

I will start with i did not read every response on this thread, if your mods list is up to date and you are 8:3:1 compression so on then your timing map is VERY conservative.
This includes even the lower rpm and lower load area's aka cruising. Looks like 5 degrees soft even for a stock 2g timing table in those areas.
I would expect this will make the car lazy. Then in the boost areas it drops to negative timing even past peak tq. This again will make it very sluggish and also make exhaust temps very hot.

The target fuel table is stock so very rich but that's ok for now.

The SD table is quite a nicely smoothed one to start with i will say. Long as at peak tq and 100ve you at hitting target AF then that means global is correct within reason.
Yes if its very high or low that can indicate other issues.

I always prefer a factory front 2 vs simulation when it comes to fuel trims. That being said just because it recommends a value in the closed loop are that does not mean its the best choice always. I have found it is best to use the tool and see what it says then do smoothing on my own and repeat. Jumps in this area can be felt almost like surge in the car where if you have the values smooth and let the fuel trims compensate a few % the vehicle does not surge per say.

The idle area i essentially make a block from xx load to a rpm based off idle rpm. This is make all the same based off what i needed to get air flow per rev correct and then keep it that way and not let the adj tool say to change any cells there. This is essentially always between 40-60 VE in the idea area. The more aggressive the cam and overlap ect the lower usually as it "ruins" or "soils" the cylinder filling at idle rpm.

 

[lololobster]

ive taken the car out a couple times now for some testing and im really happy with it pre tune, the car just feels good right out of the garage.

my only issue is coolant temps, it seems whenever i slow down i climbs above 200 even with a a pusher and puller fan

i also change MAX timing table to the one from justins v2 log, the only times the car goes really lean is right after i get off the throttle and that seems like itd be normal to me

 

[Justin DuBois]

ive taken the car out a couple times now for some testing and im really happy with it pre tune, the car just feels good right out of the garage.

my only issue is coolant temps, it seems whenever i slow down i climbs above 200 even with a a pusher and puller fan

i also change MAX timing table to the one from justins v2 log, the only times the car goes really lean is right after i get off the throttle and that seems like itd be normal to me

What I see in SHANE2 DA Max oct table is a stock 2G timing table.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[We're on Boost]

my only issue is coolant temps, it seems whenever i slow down i climbs above 200 even with a a pusher and puller fan

I think your coolant temps so far look ok actually, assuming that you have 40-50% antifreeze proportion in your coolant. Because with 50% proportion the boiling point is about 250 degrees. So you have some margin there. (It's actually 265 degrees with a 15 psi radiator cap and 50/50 antifreeze/water)

 

[lololobster]

I think your coolant temps so far look ok actually, assuming that you have 40-50% antifreeze proportion in your coolant. Because with 50% proportion the boiling point is close to 250 degrees. So you have some margin there.

Im running distilled with 1 can of water wetter

 

[We're on Boost]

Im running distilled with 1 can of water wetter

It might be ok, I really don't know. Living near Seattle I mostly think about preventing corrosion and reducing pitting in aluminum from cavitation. Haven't had to prioritize heat transfer as much, phew!
If you are using a 180 degree thermostat, it is just starting to crack open at 180 degrees. It won't be fully open until about 203 degrees. But in the DAD log it went up to 219 degrees near the end. Well, Redline doesn't say that Water Wetter raises boiling point all by itself, but they do point out that the pressure in your cooling system will raise boiling point. The example they give is "The boiling point of water treated with Red Line using a 15 psi cap is 250°F". And yup, that's why I cook beets in a pressure cooker
Our radiator caps are normally 13 psi which would be a boiling point of about 245 degrees.
It all goes a little wanky inside the head where coolant is flowing around things, so there will be spots where the pressure is a little higher or lower than the average system pressure. So there can be localized boiling here and there when the temps are close to boiling, and that I think is cavitation cylinder head style.

 

[We're on Boost]

For an experiment, you could try driving it with no thermostat.
You can do this, at least temporarily you can, because you have a 1g thermostat housing, and the 1g thermostat only does one thing (it doesn't have that other valve on the bottom end of the thermostat).
I tried this on my car just for 1 day in May of 2022 after draining my 50-50 out and filling the system with distilled water. My temps maxed at 153 degrees in a 1200 seconds drive, with no thermostat and mostly water in the system.
The next day with similar weather, I put in the thermostat that I'm still using now, and put in anti-freeze/distilled water at about 40/60. My temps then maxed at 193 degrees in a similar drive.
So that was 40 degrees difference. Unfortunately, I changed from mostly water to normal 40/60 at the same time so I can't say how much of the change was from just not having a thermostat.

If you get a large change in temps from not having a thermostat, then you could think about other options that are less extreme, like, you could try using a restrictor plate instead of a thermostat. Or you could try a thermostat that might have more open area when it's open, if there is one. One possibility I can think of is the Tama thermostat that NAPA sells as their part number ATM 1542903. Their page will say "does not fit" but that is because it is a 180 degree, and the factory calls for a 190 in the 1g cars. Check out this thread about it: 1g "OEM" thermostat

When it comes to restrictor plates, I will eventually get my new Sherline lathe set up so I could actually make them from aluminum 1/16" sheet or whatever. That might be a while since I've got too much to do already for the rest of the year . But it's something I've been wanting to do for a while.
With a restrictor plate, you'd probably dial in the optimum hole size for the hotter part of the year, and then switch to a thermostat and antifreeze for winter. Or, whatever your usage plans look like, which I have no idea what those are.

 

[lololobster]

For an experiment, you could try driving it with no thermostat.
You can do this, at least temporarily you can, because you have a 1g thermostat housing, and the 1g thermostat only does one thing (it doesn't have that other valve on the bottom end of the thermostat).
I tried this on my car just for 1 day in May of 2022 after draining my 50-50 out and filling the system with distilled water. My temps maxed at 153 degrees in a 1200 seconds drive, with no thermostat and mostly water in the system.
The next day with similar weather, I put in the thermostat that I'm still using now, and put in anti-freeze/distilled water at about 40/60. My temps then maxed at 193 degrees in a similar drive.
So that was 40 degrees difference. Unfortunately, I changed from mostly water to normal 40/60 at the same time so I can't say how much of the change was from just not having a thermostat.

If you get a large change in temps from not having a thermostat, then you could think about other options that are less extreme, like, you could try using a restrictor plate instead of a thermostat. Or you could try a thermostat that might have more open area when it's open, if there is one. One possibility I can think of is the Tama thermostat that NAPA sells as their part number ATM 1542903. Their page will say "does not fit" but that is because it is a 180 degree, and the factory calls for a 190 in the 1g cars. Check out this thread about it: 1g "OEM" thermostat

When it comes to restrictor plates, I will eventually get my new Sherline lathe set up so I could actually make them from aluminum 1/16" sheet or whatever. That might be a while since I've got too much to do already for the rest of the year . But it's something I've been wanting to do for a while.
With a restrictor plate, you'd probably dial in the optimum hole size for the hotter part of the year, and then switch to a thermostat and antifreeze for winter. Or, whatever your usage plans look like, which I have no idea what those are.

well this is interesting, i was gonna try this and when i pulled off the thermostat housing there was no thermostat to begin with, i guess i just forgot it, anyway i got 160 degree murray thermostat and drilled a 5/16 weep hole for a little extra flow, it still got up to 216 in like 15-16 minutes sitting still

when i was unknowingly running no thermostat it would get up to 190 and stay there only until i slowed down to below 10 mph then it would shoot up very quickly, im hoping with the thermostat it will take longer to raise that high

if this doesnt work my next thought would be bigger fans??? i already have a shroud with a pusher and puller fan

edit: it did not, after a short drive up to op temp as soon as i slowed down the temp rose pretty fast one thing after another

 

[We're on Boost]

well this is interesting, i was gonna try this and when i pulled off the thermostat housing there was no thermostat to begin with, i guess i just forgot it, anyway i got 160 degree murray thermostat and drilled a 5/16 weep hole for a little extra flow, it still got up to 216 in like 15-16 minutes sitting still

when i was unknowingly running no thermostat it would get up to 190 and stay there only until i slowed down to below 10 mph then it would shoot up very quickly, im hoping with the thermostat it will take longer to raise that high

if this doesnt work my next thought would be bigger fans??? i already have a shroud with a pusher and puller fan

edit: it did not, after a short drive up to op temp as soon as i slowed down the temp rose pretty fast one thing after another

Bummer. You already had no thermostat. So there's no room for improvement on that point.

im hoping with the thermostat it will take longer to raise that high

No, the temps will go up faster and end up higher if you go from no thermostat to any thermostat.
Sounds to me like you should go back to no thermostat. Unless your 160 degree murray thermostat with 5/16" weep hole is just as good.
I think you might wind up with no thermostat for the 6 or so hot months of the year, and some thermostat for the cooler months. With some antifreeze at least in the winter. If you did this you probably will not want to glue down your thermostat housing with RTV like a lot of people do. I don't because I found ordinary cheap gaskets (Apex AWO 2029)(from Rock Auto) that seal the 2 housing halves very nicely if your housing mating surfaces are clean and flat, and you smear some MolyKote 111 compound on both sides of the gasket and on the 2 bolts when you put it together. MolyKote 111 is a non-curing silicone compound. It will never cure, never harden or dry out. Removing the housing top will always be easy with that stuff. Those Apex gaskets are a little thicker than other gaskets I've seen and they don't have any kind of adhesive on them.

if this doesnt work my next thought would be bigger fans??? i already have a shroud with a pusher and puller fan

Hmm, what fans exactly do you have right now? Do you have the model numbers? Can you show a picture of the one with the shroud?
The usual 1g setup is a 12" puller on the passenger side and an 11" pusher on the driver side.
The usual model numbers, if you are talking Spal fans, are the numbers I show on my Specs & Photos page under "fans". . It's my "fan" section.
Anyway you'll see I give 2 kinds of part numbers for each fan. That's because Spal shows one type of part number in their catalog, and the sellers like Holley and Summit show usually the other type of part number for the same fan. It's annoying as hell.
I don't know if the 2g can fit these same fans.

Even if the 2g can take the same diameters, it's probably not possible to put in fans with bigger diameter than those 2. But it might be possible to put in fans with a bigger motor, which can run a more wow blade. That would depend on if you have room behind the motor for a longer (deeper) motor. A motor that sticks out more (rearward).
There are fans like that in the Spal catalog, but whether you can actually buy them from anyone in the US is another question.
Anyway, if we know what your fans are now, we could possibly figure out if "the usual" Spal fans would be more powerful air movers, and we could possibly find fans that are more powerful than "the usual" Spals.

We also need to check your pusher. Need to be sure that it's really a pusher, and not just a puller running backwards. An actual part number should tell us that. So, we need part numbers for both of your fans, or enough info about them to nail down what they are.

You put some good pics and some more info on your Specs and Photos page! Nice! Nothing about the fans though.

 

[lololobster]

Even if the 2g can take the same diameters, it's probably not possible to put in fans with bigger diameter than those 2. But it might be possible to put in fans with a bigger motor, which can run a more wow blade. That would depend on if you have room behind the motor for a longer (deeper) motor. A motor that sticks out more (rearward).
There are fans like that in the Spal catalog, but whether you can actually buy them from anyone in the US is another question.
Anyway, if we know what your fans are now, we could possibly figure out if "the usual" Spal fans would be more powerful air movers, and we could possibly find fans that are more powerful than "the usual" Spals.

its just the mishimoto fans that come with it im not sure, i can see off the motors tomorrow to confirm the part number.

edit: on theyre website it says 12 inch slim fans with 1150 cfm

We also need to check your pusher. Need to be sure that it's really a pusher, and not just a puller running backwards. An actual part number should tell us that. So, we need part numbers for both of your fans, or enough info about them to nail down what they are.

also the pusher is just the other puller that i flipped the blade on.

 

[We're on Boost]

also the pusher is just the other puller that i flipped the blade on.

Hmm, you flipped the blade. I can't visualize at the moment if you then have to also make the motor run the other way by swapping the wires.
But with a pusher, the concave side of the blade should be facing the radiator. Like in this diagram.
The blade would be moving upward on the screen, pushing air to the right, through the radiator.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Typical fan blades don't have quite as much curvature as I show in my diagram above. But they should have some curvature, so that one side is concave and the other side is convex.
I'll try to show that in this photo of my Spal 11 inch pusher (below) which is sitting here in the living room still waiting to go on the car
This is the concave side. The side that will face the radiator when it's on the car.
Blades that don't have a concave side are what I call "flat" blades and they are not very good, although fans are sometimes made like that because they are reversible (can reverse the motor).

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[We're on Boost]

The thread I can think of that was really good for help with 2g cooling issues was done in 2022 by TSIdad and his son TheDude236.
2G Overheating Issue

It turned out at the end that probably their biggest problem was an exhaust manifold that was cracked on the underside where it was hard to see.
But along the way (3 pages) they got a lot of good help and did several other upgrades for their cooling. So the whole thread is worth reading.
Post 59 gives a short wrap-up of what they did, but adding ducting in the nose was another item not mentioned in that post.
Posts #2 and #18 and #22 are about ducting (18 has pics of what they did).

Posts #13 and #14 say that Mishimoto fans came wired backwards from the factory!!

Good stuff throughout this thread.
Their car is a 1995 Talon Tsi

 

[Stapl3]

Shrouding. Slim fans against the core kinda limit you as it's only going to pull through it's circle surface area. Large OEM fans with their built in shrouds will keep the car at 180* in the middle of the desert. They pull air across a larger surface area.

I also don't believe aftermarket CFM ratings.

 

[lololobster]

i have a nice aluminum shroud, i ordered a nice spal 12" unit that should bolt right in it rated for just under 1500 cfm

 

[We're on Boost]

i have a nice aluminum shroud, i ordered a nice spal 12" unit that should bolt right in it rated for just under 1500 cfm

That's to replace your puller, right?
What is the Spal part number of the one you ordered?
You measured it all up using their dimensioned diagrams, and it will fit in your space?

 

[lololobster]

That's to replace your puller, right?
What is the Spal part number of the one you ordered?
You measured it all up using their dimensioned diagrams, and it will fit in your space?

yes for the puller

Spal 30102029 12" Swept Blade Fan​

i might need to drill some holes but it will definitely fit in the area

 

[We're on Boost]

yes for the puller

Spal 30102029 12" Swept Blade Fan​

i might need to drill some holes but it will definitely fit in the area

OK good, the 30102029 as near as I can tell is the VA10-AP70/LL-61A. It has the same shroud and blade as my puller, but has a bigger motor so it will put more power into the blade.
Spal says it will use about 14 amps. Healthy motor.
The front to back overall dimension is 3.45 inches (to the back end of the motor). I'll post the dimensioned drawing and charts for it a little later.

 

[We're on Boost]

also the pusher is just the other puller that i flipped the blade on.

I sort of checked this out by holding my old stock fan in my hands to help keep my head straight about what happens when you take a puller, turn it around to put it on the front of the radiator, and flip the blade around. You also need to reverse the polarity of the wires then, to make the motor run "backwards". I could be wrong but I don't think so.

It's probably not a very good fan anyway.
Once you get the new puller installation and circuit going good, if you feel ready to replace that "pusher" with another new 14 amp fan, then the pusher version of the fan you just bought should be good if it will fit. That you would have to measure carefully. On my 1g, an 11" fits very close. The 12" installation I saw on a 1g took some hacking that I personally wouldn't want. But a 12" would be the best if it will fit. You can't assume that just because the one you have in there now is called a 12" that any other 12" will fit. You have to check it out with their drawings. Get out your calculator, divide mm numbers by 25.4 to get inches. That's exact.

 

[We're on Boost]

This is your 30102029 puller, along with the pusher version of the same fan. Dimensions and performance. Don't bother trying to compare CFM numbers to other brands because every brand does it differently and I think some just pull numbers out of their ass.
The amps though (current), that will be pretty accurate. And the drawings are awesome.

The -61A (aspirante) is the puller.
The -61S (soffiante) is the pusher.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.