ECMlink Global fuel wayyy off

[We're on Boost]

The VA10-AP70/LL-61S pusher is sold with the part number 30102030. The 12" pusher.

If you don't have room for its 3.45" front-to-back measurement in front of the radiator, there is another model using the same blade and shroud, but with a slightly smaller motor. That one has a front-to-back of 2.44 inches.

 

[lololobster]

i think im gonna gonna get the pusher also but just the new puller and old pusher kept the system at 200 degrees at over 20 minutes sitting still
ill probably still get a bigger pusher but i think this model fans motor might be too big to fit in between the rad and intercooler.

ill put some pictures in of the new setup

i also plan to move the dump pipe away from the rad

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[We're on Boost]

i think im gonna gonna get the pusher also but just the new puller and old pusher kept the system at 200 degrees at over 20 minutes sitting still
ill probably still get a bigger pusher but i think this model fans motor might be too big to fit in between the rad and intercooler.

ill put some pictures in of the new setup

i also plan to move the dump pipe away from the rad

That looks good behind the radiator! I mean, first thing I looked for was to see what you did with the Mishi shroud which was made for 2 fans, right? Looks like you modified it to shorten it up so it only covers what it should, doesn't cover the whole radiator. Perfect. The end of it that you sawed off then, looks like you might have riveted an end plate on it to close it off to the radiator there. That's what you would want. Could you show a shot of that?

Also, I'm curious about how close all the turbo parts come to the back of the new fan, which is hard to tell for sure in the side view. Could you get a shot looking down at that?

How hot was it outside when you did this 20 minute test?

For the pusher, if you are sure the 12" will fit top to bottom (it's actually 319mm or 12.56"), then the one with the 2.44" front-to-back measurement is this model:

VA10-AP50/C-25S
30101505

Most of the dealers will only show the 30101505 number. A few of the dealers show both numbers. The Spal catalog only shows the VA10-AP50/C-25S number.

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This is a straight blade model. I looked everywhere for the swirled blade model that Spal shows in their catalog but nobody sells it anymore, if they ever did. I could find cheap knock-offs of the swirled blade ones that say "for Spal" but nobody has the genuine Spal. No big deal probably, I don't know if one is better than the other anyway. (I mean between straight or swirled)

Everybody sells this 30101505 straight blade model, so it will be easy to find, and it's a lot cheaper than the big motor one you got for the puller.
Vegas Smith in here put one of these on the front of his 1g and he had to chop something somewhere, I think because the 12.56" was a bit too much. So check it out carefully. Actually I think he put 2 of these in front of the radiator, not just one. Maybe that was the problem. I might look that up tomorrow, it's in his build thread.

 

[lololobster]

looks like you might have riveted an end plate on it to close it off to the radiator there. That's what you would want. Could you show a shot of that?

Those are some old riv nuts from the other fan, im waiting to make the final cut on the shroud till i can get to the bandsaw at the shop but i will close off the open end

Also, I'm curious about how close all the turbo parts come to the back of the new fan, which is hard to tell for sure in the side view. Could you get a shot looking down at that?

Ill get a pic but there is miles of room fortunately

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How hot was it outside when you did this 20 minute test?

It was definitely over 100 degrees outside

And once again thanks alot for all of your continued help and descriptive posts

 

[We're on Boost]

Those are some old riv nuts from the other fan, im waiting to make the final cut on the shroud till i can get to the bandsaw at the shop but i will close off the open end

Ill get a pic but there is miles of room fortunately

It was definitely over 100 degrees outside

And once again thanks alot for all of your continued help and descriptive posts

That 20 minute test is a really good result then considering ~100 degrees outside temps and the open end of the shroud isn't even closed off yet.
Was this done with the thermostat taken back out?

It does look good for room around the fan. In the view looking down, I put a red star thingie where it looks like closest approach between fan parts and turbo parts. Looks like maybe half an inch at that point. Is it actually a little more than that in the real? Anyway the positioning looks good.

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[lololobster]

That 20 minute test is a really good result then considering ~100 degrees outside temps and the open end of the shroud isn't even closed off yet.
Was this done with the thermostat taken back out?

It does look good for room around the fan. In the view looking down, I put a red star thingie where it looks like closest approach between fan parts and turbo parts. Looks like maybe half an inch at that point. Is it actually a little more than that in the real? Anyway the positioning looks good.

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the test was with thermostat installed

and as for the picture it is misleading at the part that looks closest it sits a couple inches higher than the compressor housing

 

[We're on Boost]

the test was with thermostat installed

and as for the picture it is misleading at the part that looks closest it sits a couple inches higher than the compressor housing

That's really good then.

I looked up the post in Vegas Smith's build thread where he said briefly what he had to do to fit two 12" Spal fans in front of the radiator on his 1g.
That is in post #472. Then back in post #470 he shows pictures. I'm still a little unclear about it. But I think he is talking about the top to bottom fit, because the picture that shows it all put together from the front in post 470 shows some of the shroud cut away at the bottom of the passenger side fan, I think. But he might have had to cut off other bits of it too, I don't know. I for sure didn't want to do that, so I bought an 11 inch. It's probably different on a 2g.

 

[lololobster]

ok i think we've done it!

it was 104 degrees tonight when i installed the 30101505 straight blade fan and took it out and it never even hit 200 on a 45 minute drive, 196 after slowing down and when i stopped for the night it got down to 176 before i shut it off, shes cool

as for the driving, i went about 25 mile and did a 14lb pull @122 seconds on the log, the car felt great up until ~2300 seconds if i had to guess, not really sure what happened, it was breaking up and sputtering if i went above 0 on the boost gauge so i pulled it in and couldnt find anything physically wrong in the bay and found nothing with a cylinder power balance test, im gonna have to check plugs tomorrow

but all in all im very pleased and think the car will be alot of fun! thanks everyone who helped and gave feedback

 

[We're on Boost]

ok i think we've done it!

it was 104 degrees tonight when i installed the 30101505 straight blade fan and took it out and it never even hit 200 on a 45 minute drive, 196 after slowing down and when i stopped for the night it got down to 176 before i shut it off, shes cool

Wow, awesome result, and that was fast! Fast getting the fan and fast getting it on the car.

Did you get a picture of how the 12" front fan fit in there? If so it would be interesting to see it sometime.

I'm going to be gone all day tomorrow so it might be a couple days before I get to look at your log, but I'll take a look around the 2300 seconds area to see if anything sticks out about what happened. You'll probably have it figured out by then

 

[lololobster]

Wow, awesome result, and that was fast! Fast getting the fan and fast getting it on the car.

Did you get a picture of how the 12" front fan fit in there? If so it would be interesting to see it sometime.

I'm going to be gone all day tomorrow so it might be a couple days before I get to look at your log, but I'll take a look around the 2300 seconds area to see if anything sticks out about what happened. You'll probably have it figured out by then

It fits perfectly in a 2g with no modification with the flat edges of the fan oriented at the top and bottom, plenty of room front and back as well, photos aren't great.

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The breaking up during boost is still an issue however, just started randomly during the drive. Plugs look great and gapped to .028, maybe I'll go down a bit. I'm gonna try to retorque my headgasket right now however as I haven't yet.

EDIT: the headgasket seems to have worked, she boosted right up

 

[We're on Boost]

it fits perfectly in a 2g with no modification with the flat edges of the fan oriented at the top and bottom, plenty of room front and back aswell, photos arent great

Fan looks good in there.

the breaking up during boost is still an issue however, just started randomly during the drive, plugs look great and gapped to .028 maybe ill go down a bit, im gonna try to retorque my headgasket rightnow however as i havent yet.

EDIT: the headgasket seems to have worked, she boosted right up

That's a little scary but sounds like it's ok

Speaking of scary, be sure to keep track of your oil filter position, I mean check it pretty often to make sure it's not loosening up. I never used to have that problem but in about the last year I've all of a sudden had it happen twice, where I noticed that my filter had rotated some. I always put a silver sharpie mark on the bottom that should always be straight down, can see it with a mirror underneath. Hopefully you can see yours well enough from above.

 

[lololobster]

Fan looks good in there.


That's a little scary but sounds like it's ok

Speaking of scary, be sure to keep track of your oil filter position, I mean check it pretty often to make sure it's not loosening up. I never used to have that problem but in about the last year I've all of a sudden had it happen twice, where I noticed that my filter had rotated some. I always put a silver sharpie mark on the bottom that should always be straight down, can see it with a mirror underneath. Hopefully you can see yours well enough from above.

id never retorqued the head studs from the initial build, and ill definitely do that on the filter

 

[lololobster]

ok guys im about 200 miles into the break-in and its going great, very few problems mostly just little things however, a few times (maybe 5) the car while boosting up has started to feel like its fuel cutting while pulling, on the log the injectors bounce and go to 0% a few times and sounds like the car is hitting a limiter but its way below the fuel cut threshold, anything easy this could be?
the pull is @ 2040 secs

My best theory is i was low on fuel in the tank, i dont have a fuel level sensor and i cant seem to find one for sale and i have not yet filled the tank all the way, so far its never had more than ~5 gallons of gas in it, could this be it???? i wouldnt think it would slosh enough but i dont have alot of experience. TIA

 

[steve]

I can see it happening @ 2046.5 sec but not what triggered it. You don't see to be over the load limit or boost limits.
Make sure you have the latest ECMLink software version in your ECU. https://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/v3firmwarehowto since there have been some bugs in the past.

 

[Stapl3]

It might sound weird but it reminds me of NLTS and it doing the fuel cut thing. On the RPM/TPS tab, uncheck NLTS and see what happens.
BTW, your clutch switch operation looks to be bad so I would look into that regardless if you do intend to use NLTS.

That aside, at WOT it shows you're almost 2 full points lean. You need to aggressively adjust your base fuel pressure or global fuel %.

Also, your alternator is not charging the system at idle.

 

[lololobster]

BTW, your clutch switch operation looks to be bad so I would look into that regardless if you do intend to use NLTS.

i do not have NLTS set up yet and have the clutch switch unplugged to start without depressing the clutch, which thinking about it i dont know if that is necessary with auto harnes

That aside, at WOT it shows you're almost 2 full points lean. You need to aggressively adjust your base fuel pressure or global fuel %.

im using justins table and when i saw 10.5 at WOT i assumed that was correct, but youre right his table is at 9.6 at this load, i will try to adjust this

Also, your alternator is not charging the system at idle

i just installed a new saturn 1 wire alternator so that is a bit odd
still works better than the old one

 

[Stapl3]

i do not have NLTS set up yet and have the clutch switch unplugged to start without depressing the clutch, which thinking about it i dont know if that is necessary with auto harnes

im using justins table and when i saw 10.5 at WOT i assumed that was correct, but youre right his table is at 9.6 at this load, i will try to adjust this

i just installed a new saturn 1 wire alternator so that is a bit odd
still works better than the old one

You have NLTS checked on the tab.

Your fuel system is not properly calibrated. You can put whatever table you want in there, it will remain almost 2 points apart.

You can get the voltage to work at idle if you switch to a smaller pulley size on the alternator unit.

 

[lololobster]

You have NLTS checked on the tab.

i meant i dont have it hooked up physically, i will uncheck the box

Your fuel system is not properly calibrated. You can put whatever table you want in there, it will remain almost 2 points apart.

i understand, i will adjust global fuel

You can get the voltage to work at idle if you switch to a smaller pulley size on the alternator unit.

if starting becomes an issue i will resort to this

 

[steve]

It might sound weird but it reminds me of NLTS and it doing the fuel cut thing. On the RPM/TPS tab, uncheck NLTS and see what happens.

I think you nailed it. That's the only place where the RPM's get close to 5k and a disconnected switch looks the same as the clutch pushed in.

 

[Justin DuBois]

I think you nailed it. That's the only place where the RPM's get close to 5k and a disconnected switch looks the same as the clutch pushed in.

oh my gosh, this totally reminds me when it happened to me, early in my process, so I disabled the rev-limit

 

[stryker]

I looked at the log, what I saw was idling.
If you are adjusting your AFR for idle (closed loop operation) Global Deadtime adjustment will help you reduce your Combined FT.

If you are trying to set your Global Fuel - The first and only time you need the calculator is to get a starting Global Fuel value, which will almost always be too lean. To set the Global Fuel value , you need to collect data from a WOT 3rd gear pull, starting below 2000RPM all the way to 5000-6000 rpm. You set the Global fuel based on what is happening on the Wideband at 5000-6000 rpm. Use a conservative boost setting (12-16psi)

@Justin DuBois - Sorry to revive this thread, but I've been trying to wrap my head around something I've been noticing that you specifically mention here and I'd love to hear more. When you mention the starting point for calculated global fuel will almost always be too lean, can you explain why that is? I've seen this multiple times lately with setups where parts have been verified, and can't wrap my head around the reasoning. Does it have to do with the flow data being generated on test benches that act differently than our actual DSM ecu's and resistor packs that drive our injectors, or differences in test fluid even though they all claim is a gas-equivalent? You sound versed on the topic, so I'd appreciate any other related insight you have. Thanks.

 

[Justin DuBois]

The "calculator" is just using theoretical math to make a good guess guess, but even the best theory cannot take into account all the variability in the system. Using ACTUAL measurements of the exhaust gas tells you what you need to do.

 

[steve]

The other point I'd like to make is that the fuel global itself isn't very precise. IIRC, In the factory code it's only 8 bits and scaled in a way that makes the normal smaller injectors more accurate but as you get larger the jump from one increment to the next gets bigger and bigger. Tom and Dave @ ECMTuning might have rewritten all that code but the way the calculation process works makes me think they didn't.

 

[Stapl3]

The other point I'd like to make is that the fuel global itself isn't very precise. IIRC, In the factory code it's only 8 bits and scaled in a way that makes the normal smaller injectors more accurate but as you get larger the jump from one increment to the next gets bigger and bigger. Tom and Dave @ ECMTuning might have rewritten all that code but the way the calculation process works makes me think they didn't.

I wonder if using 'secondary global' would increase the resolution.

 

[steve]

I wonder if using 'secondary global' would increase the resolution.

You mean something larger than a single byte? There are trade offs to everything.