2G Front Upper Control Arms/Camber

[Dusty Landrum]

Background on what I am trying here. Wanting to drop car 1.5” all the way around and after using the ingalls camber kit I am not happy with it. I am moving on to trying the SPC adjustable ball joints. I am not too thrilled about going with the Megan Racing arms since I want it to still have a “stock” appearance when looking at parts on the vehicle.

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So I am trying to solve the front camber issue when dropping a car and am running into some problems with finding ones that I feel comfortable with using. Attached the photos of each side control arm with two different brands. The first has a version I am MUCH more comfortable with since the second material goes all the way around the ball joint area where as BOTH of the second set it only goes to a certain point.

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Here is the other side where neither brand control arm has a second layer of material that goes all the way around the ball joint.

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Ok, so what I am worried about is the material is too thin on the ones without the second layer or material and bending the control arm/spc ball joints after some time.

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Is this a valid concern or should it be enough still? I really couldn’t find a solid review of them on here or online. It’s pretty mixed.

I know that even with the double material I still have to grind some material off so the ball joint goes to its full movement of adjustment but I am still way more comfortable with that than having that single layer there. I also don’t want to keep buying multiple control arms to see which ones have more material. Bought two brands and unless someone knows for sure of one that does have the second layer I am done. The pics of the lower set in the photo online HAD the second layer but when it arrived it

 

[EC17PSE]

From memory i believe someone did similer but cut the arm in half and welded it back up and it worked for them. Would i trust it! Likely not as it now becomes the weak point

 

[RWD4G63]

How much camber does 1.5" of lowering give you? It's likely an advantage for handling purposes. Those ball joints are a PITA and only provide a tiny bit of adjustment. My advice is leave it alone and enjoy the benefits of negative camber.

 

[Dusty Landrum]

How much camber does 1.5" of lowering give you? It's likely an advantage for handling purposes. Those ball joints are a PITA and only provide a tiny bit of adjustment. My advice is leave it alone and enjoy the benefits of negative camber.

What benefits would I really get from leaving it negative camber? The car is definitely not a daily and will only be a weekend canyon warrior so would the negative camber actually be better? I mean tire life is really the only reason I was thinking I absolutely needed it. Figured more tire contact equals better grip too right ?

 

[jdxnc]

What problem did you have with the Ingalls camber bolts? I've had them on my car for a good 7-8 years with zero issue, car also dropped around the same.

 

[Dusty Landrum]

What problem did you have with the Ingalls camber bolts? I've had them on my car for a good 7-8 years with zero issue, car also dropped around the same.

So I have read posts on here and else where that using the ingalls kit, that the control arms would get pushed out into the wheel well frame area and could either bend the arm or dent the wheel well metal on contact. I never lowered the car enough to get it to contact but the mechanic that put it on said that I was still negative camber and he shaved some of the metal off on the control arm so that it would not contact. This for me was not a good solution. I don't want to risk either of those things happening, especially the control arm failing. I also had an issues where the retaining nuts/bolts going into the bushings of the control arm would loosen and wobble around. I always caught it before it became really bad or backed itself out but not looking to get into that scenario again. I was hoping the SPC ball joints would solve all of these issues but I am still worried about the thickness of the upper control arms.

 

[jdxnc]

So I have read posts on here and else where that using the ingalls kit, that the control arms would get pushed out into the wheel well frame area and could either bend the arm or dent the wheel well metal on contact. I never lowered the car enough to get it to contact but the mechanic that put it on said that I was still negative camber and he shaved some of the metal off on the control arm so that it would not contact. This for me was not a good solution. I don't want to risk either of those things happening, especially the control arm failing. I also had an issues where the retaining nuts/bolts going into the bushings of the control arm would loosen and wobble around. I always caught it before it became really bad or backed itself out but not looking to get into that scenario again. I was hoping the SPC ball joints would solve all of these issues but I am still worried about the thickness of the upper control arms.

That hasn't been the case for me. I know there are knock off camber bolts that people have experience moving and loosening but never heard of it with the legit ones. As stated, they've been on my car for 7- 8 years and probably 50k miles, not a single issue, I even had the control arms off this summer to replace the lower control arms and install poly bushings everywhere, the Ingalls were still perfect. Garage didn't even have to touch them when I went for alignment after.

I've seen plenty of issue with the adjustable camber ball joints, they're usually the ones making contact with the strut tower.

 

[Dusty Landrum]

That hasn't been the case for me. I know there are knock off camber bolts that people have experience moving and loosening but never heard of it with the legit ones. As stated, they've been on my car for 7- 8 years and probably 50k miles, not a single issue, I even had the control arms off this summer to replace the lower control arms and install poly bushings everywhere, the Ingalls were still perfect. Garage didn't even have to touch them when I went for alignment after.

I've seen plenty of issue with the adjustable camber ball joints, they're usually the ones making contact with the strut tower.

I can definitely understand how the joints would hit in an extremely lowered car where the ball joints are extended passed the control arm, but my thought was that offsetting the ball joint by an inch and half only, puts it directly below the control arm metal. So in my opinion this seems like a better option to correct camber rather than move the entire arm closer to the shock tower. I am now leaning towards getting the megan racing arms and just removing the ball joints and sending it to powder coat them black instead of the blue color they come in. I was just hoping to get a little more insight on the SPC option since there seems to be no clear answer for them anywhere .

 

[RWD4G63]

What benefits would I really get from leaving it negative camber? The car is definitely not a daily and will only be a weekend canyon warrior so would the negative camber actually be better? I mean tire life is really the only reason I was thinking I absolutely needed it. Figured more tire contact equals better grip too right ?

A proper canyon carver alignment is going to have static negative camber. Camber doesn't affect tire wear, especially with a small amount you'd use on a car like that. Toe is what eats tires. Negative camber gives you better turn in and more grip because it compensates for body roll/suspension compression in a corner. The front of a 2g needs somewhere in the -2 to -3 range for optimized grip (tire/suspension dependent).

 

[gsxitement]

What benefits would I really get from leaving it negative camber? The car is definitely not a daily and will only be a weekend canyon warrior so would the negative camber actually be better? I mean tire life is really the only reason I was thinking I absolutely needed it. Figured more tire contact equals better grip too right ?

Negative camber is going to help with cornering grip. And you’re not going to get so much that you’ll lose braking efficiency. Lower it, measure the static camber. You’ll probably be pretty close -2 which is a good number to be at for something that corners. I run close -3 degrees in my time attack car. The only thing is the tire will wear a bit more on the inside edge than the outside, but you can mitigate that by checking tire temps and adjusting air pressure accordingly, but that’s getting more involved than I’m sure you want to be. The added camber will most definitely help with feel and cornering grip.

 

[BLACK'98DSM]

Camber doesn't affect tire wear,

Wrong. All your other points are valid an I'm in full agreeance. But camber is a silent killer of tires. (More than a half point reading on the allignment machine) this image is not caused by cupping from bad shocks. The shocks were replaced the same day as the tires, as well as a toe allignment. But the technician failed to allign the camber. So after replacing the tires I aligned it myself, adjusting the camber perfectly within specs.

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[Dusty Landrum]

I also agree that camber eats through tires too. Not as bad as incorrect toe, but definitely does still eat the inside off. I still have not decided what route I want to take but I am now leaning more towards the megan racing ones and just take the balljoint off, then have them powder coated black. The car is not a daily like I mentioned, but the idea of only using like HALF a tire life is not appealing at all. Especially when they are like 200+ a tire for super sticky ones .

 

[cosmicDSM]

Hi! Or just install a lowering sport spring kit, like H&R. Minus 35mm drop. During installation, loose all the control arms bolts, release the car to the ground and then tight all. In this case you can use factory control arms. And buy 18" wheels.. with 245/40 premium tires..and you get a lot of grip. ;-)

 

[Dusty Landrum]

Hi! Or just install a lowering sport spring kit, like H&R. Minus 35mm drop. During installation, loose all the control arms bolts, release the car to the ground and then tight all. In this case you can use factory control arms. And buy 18" wheels.. with 245/40 premium tires..and you get a lot of grip. ;-)

I am definitely aware of how to drop the car and I went with the flatout suspension kit for my car. The issue I was having was how to correct the camber situation from the drop, not HOW to actually do the drop. Plus since I am swapping all the bushings out to poly, I am also familiar with compressing the suspension to torque everything. In the end I went with the megan racing arms and just found the max they could adjust before hitting the frame and used that as my reference. After I get the car fully aligned and dialed in I will update the thread with where my measurements came in at with the arms and the drop.

 

[RWD4G63]

Wrong. All your other points are valid an I'm in full agreeance. But camber is a silent killer of tires. (More than a half point reading on the allignment machine) this image is not caused by cupping from bad shocks. The shocks were replaced the same day as the tires, as well as a toe allignment. But the technician failed to allign the camber. So after replacing the tires I aligned it myself, adjusting the camber perfectly within specs.

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That is not a camber worn tire unless it was massively overinflated. Negative camber is necessary for proper handling. Factory specs don't mean shit.

 

[Dusty Landrum]

Well figured I would give a quick update and also finally put some of the confusion around the Megan arms to rest. I got them in and mounted them then put the ball joint to MAX camber out and looked for any hitting of the frame etc and although it touched some super thick seam sealer I put on the right side, nothing a small file on the sealer didn’t fix. There is no contact at all on my car even at max adjustment and max up travel on the arm. I realize that every car is different BUT, this may help people in the future as there is not much into out there on these. So here it is FINALLY. I am still waiting on my flatout suspension shocks/springs and once they come in I will hopefully get it to a an alignment shop soon and get final numbers.

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[Black95TSIawd]

I run -4 degrees camber front and -2.5 rear in my autocross car that is also street driven. I also run some toe out both front and rear. A little toe out while running more than usual neg. camber is ok. Tire life is fine and I get what is expected out of super soft extreme performance tires. Car makes enough grip to dry the oil pickup while cornering and spin bearings…. Twice now.

 

[Justin DuBois]

Why do people mess with the ball joint, when you can modify the A arm chassis pivot?
I've been running stock upper A arms with professionally modified -2.5 deg camber chassis pivots on JIC lowered coil over struts for over 20 years.

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[gsxitement]

I run -4 degrees camber front and -2.5 rear in my autocross car that is also street driven. I also run some toe out both front and rear. A little toe out while running more than usual neg. camber is ok. Tire life is fine and I get what is expected out of super soft extreme performance tires. Car makes enough grip to dry the oil pickup while cornering and spin bearings…. Twice now.

Time for an accusump.

 

[Black95TSIawd]

Why do people mess with the ball joint, when you can modify the A arm chassis pivot?
I've been running stock upper A arms with professionally modified -2.5 deg camber chassis pivots on JIC lowered coil over struts for over 20 years.

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pictures of said modified chassis pivots?

 

[Black95TSIawd]

Time for an accusump.

I have one. I think the electric valve does not operate fast enough. Works fine for autocross, but not so good on an actual track.

What I don't have is a 6 bolt with a fancy Moroso oil pan. I wish there was something similar for 7 bolts.

 

[gsxitement]

I have one. I think the electric valve does not operate fast enough. Works fine for autocross, but not so good on an actual track.

What I don't have is a 6 bolt with a fancy Moroso oil pan. I wish there was something similar for 7 bolts.

You can change the dump rate with your precharge. Do you have a check valve installed? I have the manual valve on mine. Before I start the car, I open it to prelube the motor, and close it just before I shut the car down. I do have a moroso pan as well though.

 

[RWD4G63]

I have one. I think the electric valve does not operate fast enough. Works fine for autocross, but not so good on an actual track.

What I don't have is a 6 bolt with a fancy Moroso oil pan. I wish there was something similar for 7 bolts.

Or it doesn't have enough capacity for sustained G's? The Moroso pan isn't really that great for road racing. You're better off making your own pan with an actual diamond baffle around the oil pickup. I considered sending my pan off to NZ to have Racefab modify it, but that was a bit too rich for my blood.

Here's a thread you might be interested in:

Fixing the Evo Oil system - External Oil Pressure Regulator. Why and how? - EvolutionM - Mitsubishi Lancer and Lancer Evolution Community

Evo Engine / Turbo / Drivetrain - Fixing the Evo Oil system - External Oil Pressure Regulator. Why and how? - **UPDATE MARCH 2022** We have data from the same car, same driver, same oil, same conditions etc. A true back-to-back test with all things being equal. The new Infinite Evo oil pan for...

www.evolutionm.net

 

[gsxitement]

Or it doesn't have enough capacity for sustained G's? The Moroso pan isn't really that great for road racing. You're better off making your own pan with an actual diamond baffle around the oil pickup. I considered sending my pan off to NZ to have Racefab modify it, but that was a bit too rich for my blood.

Here's a thread you might be interested in:

Fixing the Evo Oil system - External Oil Pressure Regulator. Why and how? - EvolutionM - Mitsubishi Lancer and Lancer Evolution Community

Evo Engine / Turbo / Drivetrain - Fixing the Evo Oil system - External Oil Pressure Regulator. Why and how? - **UPDATE MARCH 2022** We have data from the same car, same driver, same oil, same conditions etc. A true back-to-back test with all things being equal. The new Infinite Evo oil pan for...

www.evolutionm.net

To be fair, the moroso pan and accusump have helped me considerably since installed. I’ve logged a little over 2Gs in corners and everything stays rock solid. But everyone has their own experience. Mine has been very good.

 

[RWD4G63]

To be fair, the moroso pan and accusump have helped me considerably since installed. I’ve logged a little over 2Gs in corners and everything stays rock solid. But everyone has their own experience. Mine has been very good.

Do you have results from them individually? If you don't, I think you'll find the accusump is doing the bulk of the work. The pan helps mostly with capacity.