First questions on my 97 TSI

[Ejnovinsky]

Hi everyone, recently picked up a 97 tsi, mostly stock has K&N cold air intake, aftermarket BOV. This is my first turbo car, and it will mostly used as a daily driver. I got it very cheap (1500) with 139,xxx on the clock. It runs good, but has a few quirks I want to get to work fixing, so any help this forum could toss my way would be greatly appreciated. Ok onto the questions.

1. It goes hard into first and second, first is worse second not too bad you really have to jam the shifter hard to get it in...once there it will not pop out, and it runs smoothly. Iam under the impression that this is a linkage issue, but obviously it could be many other things. Just looking for a starting point to check....clutch is new, and all fluids were recently replaced.


2. when I start it the lights will flash until I turn on the headlights...then they go out and all is well....if I park the car I have to shut it off before I turn off the headlights otherwise the lights begin flashing again....PO says this is a factory security feature acting up....any ideas? does not seem to affect the function of the car...more annoying....


3. Oil pressure is lower than Im used to seeing in other cars, is this a function of a low compression turbo motor or something more sinister. no warning lights...just gauge reads lower. Ive actually researched this and found it to be a common concern among new talon owners, so maybe just the way it is?


any help to get me started would be great...looking forward to getting to work on this car! thanks!~

 

[delta448]

1. Second gear synchro is shot. It seems to always be the first thing to show wear in an 5spd AWD DSM trans.

2. The security system has been tampered with. Either remove it altogether and reinstall an aftermarket one, or buy a FSM and spend the next 2 months being very very frustrated.

3. Don't go by the factory dash gauge. You can't tell it's too low without having a numbered gauge. Oil pressure should be at least 12psi at a 750rpm idle. Low pressure has absolutely nothing to do with the engine having a turbo strapped to it.

 

[Ejnovinsky]

More info...Ive been driving the car alot today, at my first post I had only had a quick test drive...heres what I discovered.....pretty sure this car has no security system of any kind...I believe the fault in my lights lies in a short in the headlight turn signal stalk.....will pull some fuses tommorow and test this....the oil pressure read fine today, maybe a faulty sending unit? The shifter is interesting though....found that as long as the car is moving slightly 1st gear can be easily engaged by standing hard on the clutch, lift off ever so slightly and 2nd can be easily engaged... 3-5 and reverse have no preference and will engage easily regardless of clutch position.....no ideas here..pressure plate issues? Linkage or sychros would be obvious.....but wouldnt it continuosly pop out of gear if the synchro was shot? once you get it slotted it appears to be just fine. In first it almost seems like the shifter lever itself runs out of room to move before it engages.......

 

[delta448]

I've not seen a 2Gb AWD that didn't originally have the factory security system installed. When you lock the doors, do you see a green light on the dash that says "security"?

As far as the trans, check the bushings on both ends of the shifter cables and the shifter base plate. Also check the clutch fork and pivot ball and the clutch pedal to clutch master cylinder's rod adjustment. If everything is fine there then I'm sure it's just internal trans wear and tear.

One way to know if it's a worn synchro, try double clutching in between 1st and 2nd and see if there's a difference in how it shifts.

As far as popping out of gear, to my limited knowledge on the subject, just having a worn synchro shouldn't cause that. If a gear's dog collar teeth are badly worn though, that may cause it. Pretty sure the synchros only attempt to speed match the free spinning gear to the shaft/dog collar before the collar's teeth lock into the side of the gear. I'm not the resident transmission expert here though.

 

[russell3123]

Bad synchros can cause the car to pop out of gear do to the fact its not fully going into the gear because of the syncro.

 

[Ejnovinsky]

I've not seen a 2Gb AWD that didn't originally have the factory security system installed. When you lock the doors, do you see a green light on the dash that says "security"?

As far as the trans, check the bushings on both ends of the shifter cables and the shifter base plate. Also check the clutch fork and pivot ball and the clutch pedal to clutch master cylinder's rod adjustment. If everything is fine there then I'm sure it's just internal trans wear and tear.

One way to know if it's a worn synchro, try double clutching in between 1st and 2nd and see if there's a difference in how it shifts.

As far as popping out of gear, to my limited knowledge on the subject, just having a worn synchro shouldn't cause that. If a gear's dog collar teeth are badly worn though, that may cause it. Pretty sure the synchros only attempt to speed match the free spinning gear to the shaft/dog collar before the collar's teeth lock into the side of the gear. I'm not the resident transmission expert here though.

I thought second gens didnt have cables, and were a solid rod linkage? maybe Im wrong...Im checking the bushings today.....the panel is loose on the side of the shifter, Im thinking someone else has been in there before searching for the same thing........no I have not noticed any light that says security....how does it work? theres no chip in the key, does it just set itself when you lock the door then? Is it defeatable. Im still leaning towards headlight switch....there was a big recall for jeep cherokees for the exact same symptoms, and it was a faulty headlight switch.....plus it appears I have aftermarket headlights so maybe something is wired wrong.....pulling the headlight fuse will tell me I guess....if the inside lights flash after that then Ill know its something else....

 

[BoostedBen]

Do a synchro test. Put the car in neutral and on a level surface. Crank it up and then without touching the clutch pedal start to nudge the shifter into gear. The RPMs should dip slightly as it begins to engage. If they don't bad synchros. One thing that could clear this up is B&M synchroshift trans oil. But be aware its just a bandaid fix.

 

[twicks69]

Great, bandage fixes and synchro tests....

Russel, your answer is only partially correct, a worn syncho by itself will not cause gear popout.

*Here is a simple list of things internally that can cause the gear popout issues. This is of course only for transmission internal wear issues, NOT if you have an issue with your shifter assembly, shift cables, bracketry connections for shift cables, shift cable or shifter bushings, worn motor mounts (normally the front and rear and passenger side mounts would cause popout issues when they are torn), or other issues.

*Also, you may have a clutch disengagement issue causing more problems, so it is imperative to make sure your clutch hydraulics including your clutch master cylinder rod adjustment and clutch fork/clutch fork pivot ball are allowing for complete clutch disengagement.

*Drain and inspect the transmission gear oil. This will tell you quite a bit of how the car was treated. The AWD turbo 5-speed takes 2.4 quarts of gear oil. The transmission prefers a GLI-4 gear oil for non-synthetic, such as Coastal 80w90; semi-synthetic, such as Pennzoil or Valvoline or GM or BG synchromesh 80w90; or synthetic gear oils such as Redline MT90 (75w-90), Redline MT-85 (75w-85), Redline 75w-90NS (no-slip). These gear oils are all good for low horsepower/torque setups and are good for almost all temperature conditions in your specific transmission. The T350/F5MC1 420a non-turbo 2G FWD transmission uses organic synchros and does not like these fluids in stock form unless you have the transmission rebuilt with full-brass synchros.

Synchroshift (all the brands) is a cheap bandage fix to cover a problem up.

Once you have checked all the things above, and it is confirmed as an internal transmission issue, then it would likely be one of these issues listed below:

Symptoms of a gear popout issue would be:

1) Worn dog engagement teeth on gear causing either partial engagement or popout of associated slider on hub/slider assembly.

2) Excessive thrust loading of gear on the shaft causing partial engagement or popout of associated slider on hub/slider assembly.

3) Excessive wear of hub and slider dog engagement teeth on slider causing partial engagement or popout of associated gear. This portion of the hub and slider gets worn down excessively fast with missed shifts or worn out synchros causing the gear to not slow down when the slider engages it, resulting in wiping out the dog engagement teeth.

4) Excessively worn out shift fork pads which are normally due to people doing numerous load pulls (i.e. street racing ), damaged or loose shifter cables resulting in the driver "trying" to shift into gear without engagement so the fork thrust loads against the slider and burns it out. Same wear patterns are seen when the synchros are worn out and the associated hub/slider has worn out dog engagement teeth.

5) Damaged shift fork causing shifting issues and incomplete engagement of the slider onto the gear.

6) Excessive bearing end play from worn out bearings/races, damaged bearings, or improperly shimmed gear clusters. This is also a precursor to transmission failure when you have 2nd gear popout issues under on/off acceleration. It is telling you that your intermediate shaft tapered roller bearings are totally ###ko'd.

7) Excessively worn synchros -- IN CONJUNCTION WITH A WORN OUT HUB/SLIDER ASSEMBLY -- would cause gear popout because the engagement area is simply not there. If the synchro is damaged and the gear/hub & slider are in good shape, or the tapered engagement cone on the gear is wiped out or warped from excessive heat/lack of oiling/damaged synchro, it would more than likely cause gear LOCKOUT first, then resulting in excessive wear of the gear and hub/slider from grinding into gear over and over.

8) Excessively worn hub and slider keys, or broken hub/slider springs. Normally worn out slider keys would make the slider pop out of gear, while the other side of broken springs results in not enough spring pressure on the backside of the keys causing a lack of engagement pressure on the shift keys that engage the keyways on the synchro, so the synchro will not apply pressure onto the gear tapered cone. This would normally still shift into gear, but you will get a "buzz" grind while still completing the shift. Usually a broken spring happens from a very hard clutch dump or hard shift or usage of a twin disk clutch, while a shift key breaking is from excessively hard miss-shifts from jammed synchros (improperly clearanced hub not allowing a modified double synchro to float, so it binds, and fails almost immediately), or from very heavy handed drivers with the shifter on a single-disk clutch or again, twin disk novices. Excessively worn shift keys are from a long life of usage and shifting, or galling from contaminated oil or debris getting stuck between the hub and slider assembly, or lack of oiling.

9) Worn out or missing shift detent springs/balls/poppets resulting in lack of detent engagement on the shift rails so the issue will be popout from lack of spring pressure on the detent keeping the shift fork engaging the hub and slider in the associated gear.

10) Excessively worn shift rail end or shift selector causing partial engagement of the hub and slider past the synchro onto the gear.


Personally, I would likely place your shifting issues on severely worn out intermediate shaft tapered roller bearings being the root cause of the other problems if it is an internal transmission issue. That doesn't mean that it would be the only thing wrong, but more than likely the main reason that there is now excessive wear of parts in your transmission. This is due to bearing lifespan being exceeded, lack of oiling, contaminated oil, etc.

This would be your indicator that you need a transmission rebuild.



And for the love of God, please learn how to write a sentence. It is frustrating to help someone when you can barely read what their problems are due to grammatical errors, spelling, and punctuation.

Use proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation when posting in our Tech Forums - don't use texting/instant messaging lingo here. This isn't an English class, but we demand that you at least make an attempt or your posts will be deleted. Internet Explorer users should download IEspell or just use Firefox since it has spell check built-in.

 

[Ejnovinsky]

Wow, that is alot to take in.......did some more driving today, and now Im getting used to the way the car is I can almost shift normally.......first is almost not a problem anymore as long as the car is moving......let it come to complete stop before you shift, and its a pain to get into first....there is no grinding just doesnt want to get in there....in motion its easy I just move the shifter into the 1st, and as the revs come down with the clutch in I just lean on the shifter slightly, and you can feel it pop in as the car slows.....second is fine too as long as you give it a good strong pull....same deal though....miss the shift and let it come down too far and its a bi*** to get in.......Iam going to drain the gear oil and replace, Im also going to check the clutch and make sure I have enough travel to fully disengage......While working on my electrical issue I did notice a hose clamp around one of the shift cables so I need to figure out what that is doing there...

 

[twicks69]

It sounds like you likely have a clutch adjustment issue being the root cause on top of a worn out transmission. I would suggest that you thoroughly inspect your clutch hydraulics, clutch master cylinder adjustment, and pedal assembly pivot points. There shouldn't be a hose clamp around your shift cable; it could be a damaged shift cable that was bandage-fixed.

Also, please be sure to read up on the numerous technical resources available to us, including the following:

Tech Article Archives - DSM Forums
Visual Frequently Answered Questions - Home Page
Tech Articles - DSM Forums: Mitsubishi Eclipse, Plymouth Laser, and Eagle Talon Forum: DSMtalk.com
Magnus Motorsports » Tech
RRE's Eclipse Tech Tips and Magazine Articles
Misterdeedub's DSM Articles
Jacks Transmissions LLC — Tech Articles
Autocross.dsm.org - DSM Specific Autocross Tech Articles
Stealth 316 - Technical Information
DIY, and How To Tech Articles - Team-2G Mitsubishi Forum