Feedback On GSX Setup

[Shane2GSX]

First off, I have done plenty of research on the different aspects of my setup as well as different profiles of people with similar times as my goals. I'm hoping the mods below will get me to my goals, and from the research I've done I think they will. However, this is just a rough draft (for lack of better term) of my planned setup. All constructive criticism is welcome. If anyone has any comments or suggestions please post. Thanks.

Platform:
1999 GSX - 56,000 Miles (Completely Stock) MT
Not my Daily Driver

Goals:
Low to mid 12 second 1/4 time *EDIT* On Pump Gas *EDIT*
Hoping for something in the range or 300-350 AWD HP
Stock weight

Initial Mod List:
Boost, EGT Guages
Apexi N1 3" Catback
Apexi 2.75" DP
Colder Plugs
Dejon Tool Intake
Blitz SS BOV (old style)
Greddy Profec B BC
ACT 2100 or 2600 *EDIT*
Apexi SAFC II
GM MAF
MAFT
Walbro 190 or 255 *EDIT*
650's
Evo III 16G (ported) or 20G not sure which yet
FMIC w/short route 2.25" piping

Future:
DSM Link
Light weight racing rims
Cams


Updated Mod List: (Edited*)
NGK 7's
K & N Intake Filter - Installed
Blitz Dual Turbo Timer - Installed
A-Pillar Pod (Gaugepods.com) - Installed
Boost, EGT, and Oil Pressure Gauges (Autometer) - Installed
Megan Racing 3" DP and Catback - Installed
Blitz SS BOV (Old Style) - Installed
Hallman MBC - Installed
3" Dejon Tool Intake
Megan Racing Short Throw Shifter* - Installed
Symborski Shift Kit* - Installed
SBR 3500 Clutch*
XACT Streetlight Flywheel*
PLX M-300 Wideband Kit
Walbro 255*
AFPR
PTE 780cc Injectors (not sure which)
95' EPROM ECU - Have
DSM Link
50 Trim (PTE T-Tech Ball Bearing 5031)
38mm Tial WG off O2*
VP O2 Housing (Recirculated)*
Ported 2G Manifold*
XS Power FMIC Kit - Have
ARP Headstuds & Headgasket*

Future:
264 HKS Cams
Lighter Weight Rims
Springs*

 

[TalonD27A]

Holy crap this is confusing. I thought choosing parts would be the easy part, I'm more confused now than ever. When a friend of mine (mustang owner) told me a DSM is dificult and expensive to make over 300 AWD wheel horsepower, I told him he was crazy and it could be done easily. Now I'm not so sure about things....

The AEM EMS is one expensive piece of equipment. But I guess just about any stand alone is. I already have an SAFC, but I could sell that. Even with selling that, not buying DSM Link, MAFT, MAF or boost controller, I'm still losing around $600 going the AEM EMS route. Plus, it looks kinda difficult to tune. Would seem easier to just get a 95 EPROM ECU and a DSMLink to log/tune, MAF and MAFT so I can vent (if I want, still debating).

So the Evo III 16G is not a good turbo to choose for between 300-350 AWD wheel hp? I've seen people running it, I don't understand why it wouldn't be a good turbo to do the job. What about the Bolt On Garrett T04B 50-trim Turbocharger from Bullseye power? It seems like plenty for what I want and is a lot cheaper as well. http://www.bullseye-power.com/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=68

Wasn't intended to confuse you just give you the proper info. The AEM EMS is expensive and should be setup from a certified AEM EMS facility. Once it's setup then the a/f and ignition tables are very easy to adjust. Don't over analyze it. Yes it is a little more expensive, but if it's only another 600.00 for something that will accommodate anything you do then I say it's a good investment.
Most DSM owners, correct me if I'm wrong, want more and more and more at some point. If you've owned a DSM for a while, like I have, you can remember when parts were limited and you bought what you could get. The as the want for more power came along I would have to sell old parts to accommodate newer better parts. As the years have gone by more stuff has become available and if I could add up all that money I waisted on parts I would be much further along. I tell people to purchase parts that give then room to grow like the AEM system. When you decided that whatever turbo you installed on your car just isn't enough anymore you won't have to wonder if your current engine management control will accommodate what you want.
The 16G family of turbochargers are great for no more than 300-325whp and that is with cams and over 20psi on race gas. Maybe 350 if you beat the crap out of it. I would say the average whp from cars I've dyno tuned would be 222-280whp without cams and at 17-18psi.
I just got some new feedback from Bullseye Power and their new TO4B 57 Trim came back with very good numbers. At 15psi it made 349; 20psi 390; 27psi 459 on a Dynapack Dyno with proper supporting parts. Very good choice, but the reason I recommended the S200 is because of the newer technology in it, it will make more power overall than the TO4 series. It is a good choice though if it's more in your budget, I'm glad to see you brought it up.

 

[Shane2GSX]

Wasn't intended to confuse you just give you the proper info. The AEM EMS is expensive and should be setup from a certified AEM EMS facility. Once it's setup then the a/f and ignition tables are very easy to adjust. Don't over analyze it. Yes it is a little more expensive, but if it's only another 600.00 for something that will accommodate anything you do then I say it's a good investment.
Most DSM owners, correct me if I'm wrong, want more and more and more at some point. If you've owned a DSM for a while, like I have, you can remember when parts were limited and you bought what you could get. The as the want for more power came along I would have to sell old parts to accommodate newer better parts. As the years have gone by more stuff has become available and if I could add up all that money I waisted on parts I would be much further along. I tell people to purchase parts that give then room to grow like the AEM system. When you decided that whatever turbo you installed on your car just isn't enough anymore you won't have to wonder if your current engine management control will accommodate what you want.
The 16G family of turbochargers are great for no more than 300-325whp and that is with cams and over 20psi on race gas. Maybe 350 if you beat the crap out of it. I would say the average whp from cars I've dyno tuned would be 222-280whp without cams and at 17-18psi.
I just got some new feedback from Bullseye Power and their new TO4B 57 Trim came back with very good numbers. At 15psi it made 349; 20psi 390; 27psi 459 on a Dynapack Dyno with proper supporting parts. Very good choice, but the reason I recommended the S200 is because of the newer technology in it, it will make more power overall than the TO4 series. It is a good choice though if it's more in your budget, I'm glad to see you brought it up.

Well it's not that you really confused me. You just opened up my eyes to new options and things I had not thought about, and for that I thank you. However, the more answers I seek, the more questions I end up with. I'm just trying to do things right and smart. I feel that good planning is the best thing I can do to ensure that I spend my money wisely and effectively on parts that will get me to where I want to be.

I am going to definately consider the AMS EMS, I just have to see if I can work it in my budget. As of right now, I have about $3000 to work with, and I'm trying to get 12's with that. Which is why I opted for the AWD in the first place, so it would be cheaper to achieve faster times.

As far as that turbo goes, I was actually looking at the TO4B 50 Trim. Judging from what I read about it, seems like it should be enough for what I want and should fit into my budget. I'm not sure about doing the external gate or just going with the high pressure internal that it comes with tough. I've read many things about the internal gates not performing well at high psi. But I don't even know what psi I could safely run on the turbo without cams and no internal work either. I really don't want to get into doing cams or internals if I don't have to. At least not initially. I'm still new to much of this and don't really know when I would need cams. Guess I better do some looking to see. But in looking at the upgrade path for the 2G on this site, they aren't even mentioned. I guess I didn't think i was gonna get this deep in just for 12's. But in any event, all the help is greatly appreciated.

 

[2gGSX]

There is really no need for you to go AEM--the stock ECU with piggybacks (I count DSMLink as a piggyback) is more than enough to handle 300-350 whp.

As for your turbo choice, an Evo III or a T04B will be more than enough to get you into the 12's. However, the power they make will only differ slightly (please remember that the SBR turbo tests were done on an engine that's about as advanced and built as they get). The main difference as I see it is perhaps a slight difference in their maximum limits, as well as their spool ups. The Evo III just seems more viable to me for daily driving, or autocross, as well as almost anything you can think of since it combines huge power and quick spool.

In all honesty though, if you know for sure you will be content at 300-350 whp 3000 is more than enough to get you there. I've spent a little over 2000 now and I'm a clutch away before the car's in consistent 12's (note I said car not necessarily driver )

 

[Shane2GSX]

There is really no need for you to go AEM--the stock ECU with piggybacks (I count DSMLink as a piggyback) is more than enough to handle 300-350 whp.

As for your turbo choice, an Evo III or a T04B will be more than enough to get you into the 12's. However, the power they make will only differ slightly (please remember that the SBR turbo tests were done on an engine that's about as advanced and built as they get). The main difference as I see it is perhaps a slight difference in their maximum limits, as well as their spool ups. The Evo III just seems more viable to me for daily driving, or autocross, as well as almost anything you can think of since it combines huge power and quick spool.

In all honesty though, if you know for sure you will be content at 300-350 whp 3000 is more than enough to get you there. I've spent a little over 2000 now and I'm a clutch away before the car's in consistent 12's (note I said car not necessarily driver )

Yeah, no doubt about that. I just want to build my car to do 12's, never said I could drive it.

I see your on the 28 and like you said a clutch away from consistent 12's. That's definitely encouraging. How many lbs are you pushing? Which 3" exhaust do you have if u don't mind me asking? PM me if necessary.

 

[2gGSX]

I actually have a Hahn Racecraft O2 eliminator downpipe setup, magnaflow 3" cat and some ebay catback that they don't sell anymore.

I'm actually switching to an Evo III right now, but the T28 would have been capable of getting me into the 12's except
1. It's getting old and worn down
2. I was having wastegate problems and didn't want to spend 100 dollars on the FP 17 psi actuator when well, #1 was happening

Even with the wastegate problems, at about 17-18 psi dropping to 15 psi by about 6000 RPM I hit a logged max of 28 lbs/min airflow. Many people with the same problem as me who switch to the FP 17 psi actuator have increased their airflow to the normal ~32-34 lbs/min airflow, with boost holding much better.

 

[TalonD27A]

Well it's not that you really confused me. You just opened up my eyes to new options and things I had not thought about, and for that I thank you. However, the more answers I seek, the more questions I end up with. I'm just trying to do things right and smart. I feel that good planning is the best thing I can do to ensure that I spend my money wisely and effectively on parts that will get me to where I want to be.

I am going to definately consider the AMS EMS, I just have to see if I can work it in my budget. As of right now, I have about $3000 to work with, and I'm trying to get 12's with that. Which is why I opted for the AWD in the first place, so it would be cheaper to achieve faster times.

As far as that turbo goes, I was actually looking at the TO4B 50 Trim. Judging from what I read about it, seems like it should be enough for what I want and should fit into my budget. I'm not sure about doing the external gate or just going with the high pressure internal that it comes with tough. I've read many things about the internal gates not performing well at high psi. But I don't even know what psi I could safely run on the turbo without cams and no internal work either. I really don't want to get into doing cams or internals if I don't have to. At least not initially. I'm still new to much of this and don't really know when I would need cams. Guess I better do some looking to see. But in looking at the upgrade path for the 2G on this site, they aren't even mentioned. I guess I didn't think i was gonna get this deep in just for 12's. But in any event, all the help is greatly appreciated.

Glad to see someone is taking the time to look at their options. If your initial budget is 3000.00 then do what you know must be done. I'm not sure what parts you have yet, but you'll need that DP & Exhaust anyway, lets say 1000.00; then intake and if your going to get the AEM EMS which is 1620.00 (I checked online). That leaves you with about 380.00 or so. Save the rest for getting the system setup and running on AEM's base map for stock mas. Then the next you will need to do your turbo, manifold, o2 housing, FMIC with piping, AEM 5 bar map, intake air temp sensor, and a custom intake for your new turbo with filter (filter on a stick). If you do it in this order you won't waist money. You should do your fuel system before the turbo just in case.
Your 3000.00 budget is good but not enough for your requested hp. I wouldn't try to squeeze as much as you can out of that 3k since it won't cut it. Just start with the basics.

 

[TalonD27A]

About the internal or external option on the turbo. The internal gate is actually more than enough since bullseye make all their own castings for the turbine side. Just make sure you upgrade the o2 housing. If you want to go external that fine it just costs more.

If you have any questions about where to purchase the AEM system, setup, or anything just PM me.

 

[2gGSX]

Glad to see someone is taking the time to look at their options. If your initial budget is 3000.00 then do what you know must be done. I'm not sure what parts you have yet, but you'll need that DP & Exhaust anyway, lets say 1000.00; then intake and if your going to get the AEM EMS which is 1620.00 (I checked online). That leaves you with about 380.00 or so. Save the rest for getting the system setup and running on AEM's base map for stock mas. Then the next you will need to do your turbo, manifold, o2 housing, FMIC with piping, AEM 5 bar map, intake air temp sensor, and a custom intake for your new turbo with filter (filter on a stick). If you do it in this order you won't waist money. You should do your fuel system before the turbo just in case.
Your 3000.00 budget is good but not enough for your requested hp. I wouldn't try to squeeze as much as you can out of that 3k since it won't cut it. Just start with the basics.

WTF

I'm sorry, but 3000 dollars is way more than enough for 300 whp. There is absolutely no need for someone who's searching for 300 whp to go with an AEM. What benefits will he gain from this over the stock ECU and DSMLink? He'll be speed density (before he overruns his MAS) and he'll most likely end up either spending more money or time just to get the damn thing baselined. He could run 13's on a GT35R but would that be a good use of his money? No.

As for the downpipe and exhaust, he could easily even shop from a vendor and spend much less than 1000 dollars. If he wanted to save any more money he could get one custom made locally for around 500 dollars probably.

If he does it in your order perhaps he won't waste money, if he eventually wants to run 8's or 9's. What you're telling him to do is beyond overkill for his goals. Had he been shooting for twice his goals then perhaps this wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[2gGSX]

About the internal or external option on the turbo. The internal gate is actually more than enough since bullseye make all their own castings for the turbine side. Just make sure you upgrade the o2 housing. If you want to go external that fine it just costs more.

If you have any questions about where to purchase the AEM system, setup, or anything just PM me.

The massive internal gate is fine for low boost perhaps and to avoid boost creep, but it will absolutely hit you in the face when you try to run high boost. SBR's turbo testing has shown that as well, and when they attempted to preload the wastegate spring it caused compressor surge (on the T04B v-trim). While they do have an option to put a high pressure spring into the actuator, this may cause the same problems as preloading the actuator.

Since pressure is force x area, you can see that as the area increases so does the pressure. A whole lot. For example, an Evo III's stock wastegate flapper size is 31mm. Thus pressure exerted is (pi)(r)^2, or 754 (units will not matter since they will stay constant). The common 34mm upgrade increases this to 907, and Bullseye's 38mm increases this to 1133. Increased pressure will cause the wastegate flapper to blow open early hurting spool and not letting you hold as much boost as you could normally.

 

[eclipse_20g]

Im going to have to agree with the EMS being a huge waste of your money for your goals. That is over half of your budget for an engine management system that you may never need the full potential of.

Im currently on my second run-through of modding a DSM from stock. This time around, I'm taking a different route. ALL basics first. Things you absolutely must have in order to achieve more performance reliably. The following is considering you will already have a full exhaust system.

The tuning tools are first. For your setup, I'm sure you could run well with a SAFC/MAF combo, but the DSMlink is light years ahead of that setup. Find an eprom ecu, get it socketed, get the link, and be all said and done with. You most likely will never see the need to upgrade from it and is a fraction of the AEM unit. I dont care if you are still running a stock motor, you should get your tuning tools in place. You can even pick up some hp on a bone stock motor with a good tune.

The fuel system is coming next. Pump, lines, Aeromotive filter, AFPR, stock rail, and injectors. It still doesnt matter if you dont have a monster turbo or anything that warrants the need for a bunch of fuel, it still needs to be in place for future plans. You can still tune the system to run correctly with your bone stock motor.

Drivetrain: This is a tough one considering you are on a 7-bolt. The 2100 will be quite sufficient for your needs, but beware of crankwalk. Fear it. It is the spawn of satan himself. The extra load put onto a 7-bolt motor by an aftermarket clutch has been known to make the feared crankwalk show its ugly self much much quicker. If it does happen, Mitsu does nothing for you. To make reliable power though, you will need a decent clutch. It would be best if you could use some of your budget for a 6-bolt swap, but thats another story. Get the 2100, get a lightweight flywheel, and cross your damn fingers. Its all you can do.

After everything is now in place, let the power adding begin. You now have the capability to run a larger turbo and make some real power without a worry to the other parts of the system as a whole. Slap on whichever turbo you so desire, get it tuned properly by someone knowledgable to your specific tuning device, and then start planning whats next. Believe me, there is always going to be something on the "whats next" list.

Hopefully I havent really missed anything here. I may have as I am at work typing this in increments as I get time. Good luck and dont be a stranger. You got Q's, we got the A's.

 

[TalonD27A]

WTF

I'm sorry, but 3000 dollars is way more than enough for 300 whp. There is absolutely no need for someone who's searching for 300 whp to go with an AEM. What benefits will he gain from this over the stock ECU and DSMLink? He'll be speed density (before he overruns his MAS) and he'll most likely end up either spending more money or time just to get the damn thing baselined. He could run 13's on a GT35R but would that be a good use of his money? No.

As for the downpipe and exhaust, he could easily even shop from a vendor and spend much less than 1000 dollars. If he wanted to save any more money he could get one custom made locally for around 500 dollars probably.

If he does it in your order perhaps he won't waste money, if he eventually wants to run 8's or 9's. What you're telling him to do is beyond overkill for his goals. Had he been shooting for twice his goals then perhaps this wouldn't be a bad idea.

I figured at some point someone would disagree and try to put their opinion on the table.

First off 3000.00 is not enough for 300whp so unless you have some magical formula besides ebay, let me know. I finished a DSM the other day with a EVO III Big 16G, tubular manifold, 550cc inj, walbro255, fpr, o2 housing, intake, safc, 2.5" muffler brothers special mild steel exhaust and made only 230whp on our dyno. Thats not 300whp and all those parts are more than 3k.

The AEM system is more than he needs with what he currently wants. What happens when he wants more? The AEM EMS will ac comadate whatever he changes and will get the maximum out of his setup. As for benefits over the dsmlink (which i think is a very good option for those who know where their stopping point is) I don't think I need to list them since they are on AEM's website. You comment on speed density and as stated before it will work with the stock mas.

You are very right about the GT35R, but that would be the same for every turbo upgrade without the supporting parts that is why I mentioned at the end to do the fuel system before the turbo. Not to mention the GT35R is much larger than any turbo discussed up to this point so I'm not sure where that came from?

As for the exhaust I mentioned the Apexi GT Spec (800.00) since it was the closest to the N1 and the RRE DP (250.00) comes to to 1050.00. Fairly simple math! The GReddy Evo 2 is a full stainless 3" catback that is 560.00. The GT Spec was only recommended because of his choice in Apexi. I've seen the 500.00 specials and you get what you pay for!

I think the comment about 8's and 9's was a little far out of place. The number 2G DSM's in the country that run 9's I can probably count with my fingers and the 8's ....well if someone knows of one please let me know. Not even Magnus ran 8's with their 2G AWD Drag Car.

 

[2gGSX]

I figured at some point someone would disagree and try to put their opinion on the table.

First off 3000.00 is not enough for 300whp so unless you have some magical formula besides ebay, let me know. I finished a DSM the other day with a EVO III Big 16G, tubular manifold, 550cc inj, walbro255, fpr, o2 housing, intake, safc, 2.5" muffler brothers special mild steel exhaust and made only 230whp on our dyno. Thats not 300whp and all those parts are more than 3k.

These parts can easily be had for less than 3000 dollars, but if you do insist on buying a blinging GReddy exhaust and matching downpipe then perhaps you are spending more. By all means an Evo III with supporting mods can be had for less than 3000 dollars, and has been proven to make over 300 whp.

The AEM system is more than he needs with what he currently wants. What happens when he wants more? The AEM EMS will ac comadate whatever he changes and will get the maximum out of his setup. As for benefits over the dsmlink (which i think is a very good option for those who know where their stopping point is) I don't think I need to list them since they are on AEM's website. You comment on speed density and as stated before it will work with the stock mas.

He has already stated his goals of 300-350 whp, which is well within even AFC territory. DSMLink has already been proven on high horsepower setups running very quick times, so I stand by my statement that unless he wants to run 8's or 9's DSMLink will be more than enough for his goals. As far as your comment on the limitations of the stock MAS, DSMLink already has capabilities to get around this as stated previously in this thread.

You are very right about the GT35R, but that would be the same for every turbo upgrade without the supporting parts that is why I mentioned at the end to do the fuel system before the turbo. Not to mention the GT35R is much larger than any turbo discussed up to this point so I'm not sure where that came from?

The GT35R was an analogy for what you're wanting him to do; simply put it's overkill for his goals.

As for the exhaust I mentioned the Apexi GT Spec (800.00) since it was the closest to the N1 and the RRE DP (250.00) comes to to 1050.00. Fairly simple math! The GReddy Evo 2 is a full stainless 3" catback that is 560.00. The GT Spec was only recommended because of his choice in Apexi. I've seen the 500.00 specials and you get what you pay for!

Even for a well designed vendor exhaust (not from ebay as you so fondly refer to where less expensive parts come from) cost less than 1000 dollars. For example, RNR's exhaust system has been proven to work well http://rnrracing.com/cgi-bin/ccp5/c...532414&rrc=N&cip=24.216.67.143&pg=cat&ref=DSM and definitely does not cost 1000 dollars. Yes, you do get what you pay for in an exhaust; piping to redirect exhaust gases to the rear of the car. No matter how much you spend that's the basics of it, an exhaust system is an exhaust system.

I think the comment about 8's and 9's was a little far out of place. The number 2G DSM's in the country that run 9's I can probably count with my fingers and the 8's ....well if someone knows of one please let me know. Not even Magnus ran 8's with their 2G AWD Drag Car.

The comment about 8's and 9's is what you're preparing him for it seems like. There are much more cost-effective alternatives to the mods you've listed.

There are many cars done correctly and have been proven to run consistent, quick times without going to those extremes of a budget.

 

[TalonD27A]

The massive internal gate is fine for low boost perhaps and to avoid boost creep, but it will absolutely hit you in the face when you try to run high boost. SBR's turbo testing has shown that as well, and when they attempted to preload the wastegate spring it caused compressor surge (on the T04B v-trim). While they do have an option to put a high pressure spring into the actuator, this may cause the same problems as preloading the actuator.

Since pressure is force x area, you can see that as the area increases so does the pressure. A whole lot. For example, an Evo III's stock wastegate flapper size is 31mm. Thus pressure exerted is (pi)(r)^2, or 754 (units will not matter since they will stay constant). The common 34mm upgrade increases this to 907, and Bullseye's 38mm increases this to 1133. Increased pressure will cause the wastegate flapper to blow open early hurting spool and not letting you hold as much boost as you could normally.

What is high and low boost in your eyes The turbos you refer to don't have much of a problem under 18-19psi which at 15psi the turbo put down 331whp and 390whp at 18psi. I don't see that stock seven bolt motor handling much over that with those flow rates from that turbo. I do recommend the Evo III or the Big T28. Both have sent 2G's to the high 11's.

I don't think you described compressor surge correctly. Compressor surge is the area of a turbocharger compressor map in relation to an engines rpm's. A turbocharger has stability limitions defined by a minimum air flow rate on a psi rise vs flow and when that limit is reached it will cause a pulsation in the motor or surge. Basically there is more air than the motor can handle at that specific point.

As for the 38mm internal wastegate flap opening under boost rise, they have a stronger actuator that will solve that problem. Fairly simple.

 

[TalonD27A]

Again I don't think you read everything posted up to this point. He wanted feedback from members on his build and based on my experience I gave mine. Some discrepancy is my tuning experience comes from a Mustang Dyno and with that I have not seen a single 2G DSM in over 3yrs put down 300whp with a TDO5 series turbo. Maybe come close with cams but he specified he didn't want to do that.

If I was pointing him toward the 8's and 9's then the first thing mentioned would have been 35k min. Those time slips come with more than just engine parts and more turbo than anything discussed especially on a 2G.

The GT35R should have never been mentioned; poor analogy

I'll agree with everyone that the AEM EMS is not needed for the his build of 300whp. However, how many people purchase a DSM as a non-daily driver and don't find themselves wanting more at some point??? As for those who haven't used the AEM systems, known someone with it in there car, or don't have ambition for more then any true engine management isn't for you.

 

[2gGSX]

What is high and low boost in your eyes The turbos you refer to don't have much of a problem under 18-19psi which at 15psi the turbo put down 331whp and 390whp at 18psi. I don't see that stock seven bolt motor handling much over that with those flow rates from that turbo. I do recommend the Evo III or the Big T28. Both have sent 2G's to the high 11's.

High boost to me, or in terms of an Evo III would be up to 24 psi. To say that a stock seven bolt motor wouldn't handle 331 whp and 390 whp is also unfounded; there are plenty of people on stock motors making huge numbers. If not stock, then minimal mods such as ARPs. Also, The SBR turbo testing thread specifically stated that this was *not* on a stock motor, and the thread was only meant to serve as a comparison between turbos, not to show how what normal people can expect out of a turbo.

I don't think you described compressor surge correctly. Compressor surge is the area of a turbocharger compressor map in relation to an engines rpm's. A turbocharger has stability limitions defined by a minimum air flow rate on a psi rise vs flow and when that limit is reached it will cause a pulsation in the motor or surge. Basically there is more air than the motor can handle at that specific point.

Directly from the last thread about the T04B: "We did also run into a little bit of compressor surge when we did try to tighten the WG actuator down to hold more boost."

As for the 38mm internal wastegate flap opening under boost rise, they have a stronger actuator that will solve that problem. Fairly simple.

Again, that is what caused the compressor surge.

Again I don't think you read everything posted up to this point. He wanted feedback from members on his build and based on my experience I gave mine. Some discrepancy is my tuning experience comes from a Mustang Dyno and with that I have not seen a single 2G DSM in over 3yrs put down 300whp with a TDO5 series turbo. Maybe come close with cams but he specified he didn't want to do that.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156794&highlight=evo+dyno
Both Josh Wingell and the GVR4 in that thread have ran 11's with the Evo III, which you must admit puts them at well over 300 whp. I understand that they have cams, but the cams alone will not push them down to below 300 whp.

If I was pointing him toward the 8's and 9's then the first thing mentioned would have been 35k min. Those time slips come with more than just engine parts and more turbo than anything discussed especially on a 2G.

The GT35R should have never been mentioned; poor analogy

Perhaps, I've never been known to make good analogies

I'll agree with everyone that the AEM EMS is not need for the build. However, how many people purchase a DSM as a non-daily driver and don't find themselves wanting more at some point??? As for those who haven't used the AEM systems, known someone with it in there car, or don't have ambition for more then any true engine management isn't for you.

He never stated that this was not his DD. There are always people who want more, and those are the people in the 10's, 9's and beyond. For the other 99.9% of DSMers that use their car to get to school/college/work, a more traditional set of mods will do fine.

I have already answered the thread starter's questions, and he has already gotten a wide variety of input from people so I'll leave this thread now.

 

[TalonD27A]

I should have elaborated on the turbo I was referring to. I thought it was understood since you referred to the TO4 having compressor surge. The 16G is not going to produce those numbers on a 2G w/o money spent in all the right supporting parts sending the build well over 3k as well as getting into cams which was stated he didn't want to do. The car you are talking about (GVR4) has the larger port cylinder head which explains the higher hp. Lets stick with apples to apples.

The 16G at 24psi is a hot hair dryer at that boost and sends it out of its efficiency range.
Take a larger turbo at 15-16psi, you'll make more power with better efficiency and more air volume.

As for the overall numbers...we aren't on the same page since SBR has a Dynapack and we have a Mustang Dyno. Your's measures hp at the hubs and ours measures it at the wheels with a generated load to simulate road conditions. Your hp numbers are going to be higher since the driveline loss is less on a Dynapack than a Mustang Dyno. Thats the reason for my response to the over 300whp with a 16G on a 2G w/o cams.

I missed the exhaust comment. An exhaust is not an exhaust even if its the same diameter. You have different materials which are better for retainling heat which increases velocity for better exit, the number of bends should be considered since each 90deg bend or number of bends equaling 1-90deg bend is good for a 4-5% power loss, diameter which is another reason for jumping to the Apexi GT Spec since it expands to almost 3.25", some materials weigh more than others and for ever 10lbs you save it's equivalent is about 1hp. If anything was good then why do motorsports teams use 304,312, & 320 stainless; titanium; Inconel used in formula one for its superior heat retention, low expansion, and light weight.

I'm not going to get into the wastegate flap again since we haven't seen the problem with those turbos. However simple physics should tell you the same problem would apply and could happen to an external wastegate.

It's a waist of my time to comment on the rest since the focus of these topics have been missed. Instead pointless, nit-picking has taken place and for what? This thread has been picked apart so for this I apologize to Shane2GSX . I think most peoples opinions are from personal experience and all this should be left up to the person to make his decision.

My objective was to help Shane2GSX pick the pars that would last and give him room to grow with what he requested. When you make your decision please fill us in on what you decided and I'm sure everyone will help as much as we can with anticipation of the end results.

 

[Shane2GSX]

Okay, I appreciate the help from everyone. It's helping me more than you know.
Here is what I'm thinking of doing, once again give me feedback.

Boost, EGT Guages
3" Ex & DP
3" Intake
Blitz SS BOV (Old Style) - Have
Greddy Profec B BC
ACT 2100
Apexi SAFC II - Have (sell to get MAFT)
MAFT
Walbro 255
650's
Evo III 16G
FMIC w/short route 2.5" piping
95' EPROM ECU & DSM Link

Total cost about: $3700

Obviously, to do some of the things I want to do it's going to take a little more money than I thought, I'm just gonna have to save up and spend an additional $700, which is fine.
However, I have a few questions. Can I use the just the MAFT and a Pocketloger ($170) to tune/log with, without both the SAFC II and GM MAF until I can get DSMLink? Or do I need the SAFCII when using the MAFT? I could keep the SAFCII if needed until I get ready to buy DSMLink. I am assuming I can use the MAFT without the GM MAF (I don't see what difference it would make).

 

[Shane2GSX]

As far as exhausts go, I found this Megan Racing exhaust, it says it's 2.5" in the title but then in the description it says it's a 3". I'm going to call them for details but it's priced very low and I've read good things about these exhausts. Anybody know anything about these exhausts?
http://www.thespeedfactor.com/catback_dsm2.html

 

[TalonD27A]

Okay, I appreciate the help from everyone. It's helping me more than you know.
Here is what I'm thinking of doing, once again give me feedback.

Boost, EGT Guages
3" Ex & DP
3" Intake
Blitz SS BOV (Old Style) - Have
Greddy Profec B BC
ACT 2100
Apexi SAFC II - Have (sell to get MAFT)
MAFT
Walbro 255
650's
Evo III 16G
FMIC w/short route 2.5" piping
95' EPROM ECU & DSM Link

Total cost about: $3700

Obviously, to do some of the things I want to do it's going to take a little more money than I thought, I'm just gonna have to save up and spend an additional $700, which is fine.
However, I have a few questions. Can I use the just the MAFT and a Pocketloger ($170) to tune/log with, without both the SAFC II and GM MAF until I can get DSMLink? Or do I need the SAFCII when using the MAFT? I could keep the SAFCII if needed until I get ready to buy DSMLink. I am assuming I can use the MAFT without the GM MAF (I don't see what difference it would make).

Sounds Good.

You can't use the MAFT on its own. That would really have no benefit over an SAFC. You can use the GM setup with the SAFC till you get the DSM Link. Use the Link to set the a/f base and the adjust the rpm points with the SAFC. Works well and gives the SAFC a wider capability.
I would get a wideband a/f meter with your build. It makes tuning much much easier. You can't tell what makes power but if you tune for 11.5:1 it should be fairly safe. Then if you go to get your car tuned it won't be as expensive since it will be simple for the techs running the dyno to lean out the car or add fuel to see if it makes any more power. If you save a couple hours on the dyno with most shop AWD Tuning being 175.00 or more then the wideband expense will be justified. Not to mention you'll be switching to the DSM Link and will have to tune again.

 

[Shane2GSX]

Sounds Good.

You can't use the MAFT on its own. That would really have no benefit over an SAFC. You can use the GM setup with the SAFC till you get the DSM Link. Use the Link to set the a/f base and the adjust the rpm points with the SAFC. Works well and gives the SAFC a wider capability.
I would get a wideband a/f meter with your build. It makes tuning much much easier. You can't tell what makes power but if you tune for 11.5:1 it should be fairly safe. Then if you go to get your car tuned it won't be as expensive since it will be simple for the techs running the dyno to lean out the car or add fuel to see if it makes any more power. If you save a couple hours on the dyno with most shop AWD Tuning being 175.00 or more then the wideband expense will be justified. Not to mention you'll be switching to the DSM Link and will have to tune again.

Would I still need the GM MAF?

 

[TalonD27A]

Would I still need the GM MAF?

Yes...or else its no different than the SAFC by itself. The whole advantage to the GM system is less air intake restriction.

 

[Shane2GSX]

Yes...or else its no different than the SAFC by itself. The whole advantage to the GM system is less air intake restriction.

Yes, I understand that apsect of it. But the MAFT is also used (even though not its main function) to vent. That's the one and only reason I was even buying it. Can it be used to vent without the GM MAF? I may still get the GM MAF anyway if it will help my setup perform better. Then again I may do niether, all just thoughts at this point.

 

[eclipse_20g]

There isnt just one or the other with the Maf-t. The GM Maf takes place of your stock mitsu Mass air sensor. Then the translator plugs into the GM Maf, and the stock DSM connector that was originally connected to your stock MAS. It translates the new signal from the GM unit, and sends it to the ECU via the stock Mitsu connector.

And with your budget, buying a part just to be able to vent is lame. Rethink that idea. Venting to atmosphere isn't all its cracked up to be.

 

[Shane2GSX]

There isnt just one or the other with the Maf-t. The GM Maf takes place of your stock mitsu Mass air sensor. Then the translator plugs into the GM Maf, and the stock DSM connector that was originally connected to your stock MAS. It translates the new signal from the GM unit, and sends it to the ECU via the stock Mitsu connector.

And with your budget, buying a part just to be able to vent is lame. Rethink that idea. Venting to atmosphere isn't all its cracked up to be.

Never said I was or was not venting, just trying to get information so I can infact make decisions on all aspects of my setup. But the whole MAFT & GM MAF thing makes sense to me now thanks to your info as well as some searching.

 

[2gGSX]

Would I still need the GM MAF?

You do *not* need this as a tuning tool (as in you either don't plan on overrunning your 2g MAS or you plan on using DSMLink to compensate).

Once you get DSMLink however you won't need the AFC, any other logger or the MAFT (for tuning). I would say save up for DSMLink first before putting your injectors in, as you'll have a much easier time compensating for them that way.

You also do not absolutely need the 255hp lph fuel pump right now, the rewired 190 will do fine for people into the mid 40 lbs/min airflow range. Should you stick with the 255 lph though you will need an aftermarket AFPR to keep from overrunning the stock FPR.