Feedback On GSX Setup

[Shane2GSX]

First off, I have done plenty of research on the different aspects of my setup as well as different profiles of people with similar times as my goals. I'm hoping the mods below will get me to my goals, and from the research I've done I think they will. However, this is just a rough draft (for lack of better term) of my planned setup. All constructive criticism is welcome. If anyone has any comments or suggestions please post. Thanks.

Platform:
1999 GSX - 56,000 Miles (Completely Stock) MT
Not my Daily Driver

Goals:
Low to mid 12 second 1/4 time *EDIT* On Pump Gas *EDIT*
Hoping for something in the range or 300-350 AWD HP
Stock weight

Initial Mod List:
Boost, EGT Guages
Apexi N1 3" Catback
Apexi 2.75" DP
Colder Plugs
Dejon Tool Intake
Blitz SS BOV (old style)
Greddy Profec B BC
ACT 2100 or 2600 *EDIT*
Apexi SAFC II
GM MAF
MAFT
Walbro 190 or 255 *EDIT*
650's
Evo III 16G (ported) or 20G not sure which yet
FMIC w/short route 2.25" piping

Future:
DSM Link
Light weight racing rims
Cams


Updated Mod List: (Edited*)
NGK 7's
K & N Intake Filter - Installed
Blitz Dual Turbo Timer - Installed
A-Pillar Pod (Gaugepods.com) - Installed
Boost, EGT, and Oil Pressure Gauges (Autometer) - Installed
Megan Racing 3" DP and Catback - Installed
Blitz SS BOV (Old Style) - Installed
Hallman MBC - Installed
3" Dejon Tool Intake
Megan Racing Short Throw Shifter* - Installed
Symborski Shift Kit* - Installed
SBR 3500 Clutch*
XACT Streetlight Flywheel*
PLX M-300 Wideband Kit
Walbro 255*
AFPR
PTE 780cc Injectors (not sure which)
95' EPROM ECU - Have
DSM Link
50 Trim (PTE T-Tech Ball Bearing 5031)
38mm Tial WG off O2*
VP O2 Housing (Recirculated)*
Ported 2G Manifold*
XS Power FMIC Kit - Have
ARP Headstuds & Headgasket*

Future:
264 HKS Cams
Lighter Weight Rims
Springs*

 

[2gGSX]

Great info! Sounds like I won't need a 20G after all, which is good news. Another question I have for you DSMLink users, does anyone know if it can store different tunes? Say I want my car to have 2 settings, like being able to ride around on 12 lbs of boost for normal driving and having the appropriate mix for that, then being able to switch to 20 lbs whenever I feel the need and having the right mix for that? Or am I making things too complicated?

You can save any number of sets of settings you wish. By either saving/loading logs with different settings then loading the settings onto your ECU, or actually saving ECU configs.

 

[MrBoxx]

Just so you know, if you're going with DSMLink (which I would recommend) you'll need to track down an Eprom ECU. Check the classifieds here, any junkyards around your area, find a used car dealership with a '95 turbo DSM and take it for a test drive and swap out ECU's while you're gone, whatever you need to do, but it has to be an Eprom ECU, which only came on the 95 turbo models. The DSMLink website has a pic of how to identify one of these from the ECU case and there are a few threads around here with this info, too.

 

[98GSXboosted]

find a used car dealership with a '95 turbo DSM and take it for a test drive and swap out ECU's while you're gone

hahahah I love that, is it really that easy to do? Will my 98 ECU fit in a 95? and will they know the difference? awesome idea

 

[2gGSX]

Yes, the CAS is inverted and so everything fires in reverse order. You could try switching around plug wires I suppose...

 

[MrBoxx]

It would work fine. No switching of anything around. It was an idea a friend of mine was throwing around with his 98 GST when he decided to go with DSMLink. We eventually found a 95 in a junkyard and took the ECU. Paid $100 or so for it. I think the dealership wants like $700 for one brand new, but I don't think it would come from the dealership as an Eprom.

 

[2gGSX]

It would work fine. No switching of anything around. It was an idea a friend of mine was throwing around with his 98 GST when he decided to go with DSMLink. We eventually found a 95 in a junkyard and took the ECU. Paid $100 or so for it. I think the dealership wants like $700 for one brand new, but I don't think it would come from the dealership as an Eprom.

No, the 95-96 and 97+ CAS signals are inverted, it would start and run almost like normal but it is not fine.

 

[Shane2GSX]

I thought u could ship off your ecu to dsmlink and they'll convert it. Am I wrong here?

 

[2gGSX]

I thought u could ship off your ecu to dsmlink and they'll convert it. Am I wrong here?

They will socket an EPROM ECU for you, but not "convert it" (I guess you mean make a non EPROM an EPROM).

Also, don't steal ECUs.

 

[Shane2GSX]

They will socket an EPROM ECU for you, but not "convert it" (I guess you mean make a non EPROM an EPROM).

Also, don't steal ECUs.

Yeah, just read over the FAQ's again on the DSMLink site. Oh well, I'll have to do some thinking about this I guess, I didn't know it was gonna be that much trouble. Maybe I'll just buy a pocket logger and tune with the safc/maft setup.

 

[MrBoxx]

No, the 95-96 and 97+ CAS signals are inverted, it would start and run almost like normal but it is not fine.

Okay. When my friend put it in his car, he must have done the switch and just not said anything. I guess I never noticed. Thanks! One more little iota of information for me to store.

Also, don't steal ECUs.

I would never actually advocate swapping ECUs; I was just joking.

 

[Shane2GSX]

Yeah, just read over the FAQ's again on the DSMLink site. Oh well, I'll have to do some thinking about this I guess, I didn't know it was gonna be that much trouble. Maybe I'll just buy a pocket logger and tune with the safc/maft setup.

Is the above a popular way to go?

Also, I failed to mention I want to reach my goals on pump gas (93). Anybody see any probs with that?

 

[Wicked95AWD]

Version 3 of DSMlink should be released soon and the software developers have been hinting that the new version is going to include the ability to use a 3" or 3.5" GM MAF. If I were you, I would wait a few months until the new version of DSMlink is released and make sure that this functionality is included. If so, you could buy DSMlink for the same price as purchasing an SAFC and the MAFT setup. That way, you could have all of the extra features and fuctionality that DSMlink has to offer for the same price as the crappy SAFC+MAFT combo.

 

[femmeDSM]

Also, I failed to mention I want to reach my goals on pump gas (93). Anybody see any probs with that?

Pump gas goes a long way. Check out this link: http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclfuel.htm
(scroll about halfway down the page) for ideas on what you can do w/ injector sizing and fuel octane. Should give you a pretty good idea of how far you can go...

 

[2gGSX]

Is the above a popular way to go?

Also, I failed to mention I want to reach my goals on pump gas (93). Anybody see any probs with that?

300-350 AWHP is definitely do-able on pump with enough supporting mods and a good tune (many have done it without cams or a SMIM).

As for V3 of DSMLink coming out, they have not yet specified exactly when, and said that next spring would be the very earliest. It is up to you what you want to do, although upgrading from V2 to V3 will likely only cost 50 dollars, like when they went from V1 to V2.

 

[Shane2GSX]

Version 3 of DSMlink should be released soon and the software developers have been hinting that the new version is going to include the ability to use a 3" or 3.5" GM MAF. If I were you, I would wait a few months until the new version of DSMlink is released and make sure that this functionality is included. If so, you could buy DSMlink for the same price as purchasing an SAFC and the MAFT setup. That way, you could have all of the extra features and fuctionality that DSMlink has to offer for the same price as the crappy SAFC+MAFT combo.

I already have the SAFC, so that's one reason I'm considering doing that combo. Plus then I could avoid having to take out the ECU and swap that. Anybody know how hard of a swap that is, and btw I am a computer tech if that means anything.

 

[2gGSX]

I already have the SAFC, so that's one reason I'm considering doing that combo. Plus then I could avoid having to take out the ECU and swap that. Anybody know how hard of a swap that is, and btw I am a computer tech if that means anything.

Just involves pulling old ECU and putting new, socketed, DSMLink EPROM(ed?) ECU in while making sure you have them burn the CAS inversion as a default setting. Beyond that, maybe switching your spark plugs around (I haven't really read about that yet, will look later if you want).

 

[Dark_Horse]

I already have the SAFC, so that's one reason I'm considering doing that combo. Plus then I could avoid having to take out the ECU and swap that. Anybody know how hard of a swap that is, and btw I am a computer tech if that means anything.

It takes all of about 10 min to remove the ECU and swap for an EPROM ECU.

 

[Xtraction]

For sure get the walbro 255 instead of the 190. But just because your car is modded and you see people with the same setup, dosent mean your going to run the same 1/4 mile time. Remember its also up to how good of a driver your are.

And at what altitude you race.
I race at Bandimere in Colorado...a mile above sea level.

 

[Shane2GSX]

Pump gas goes a long way. Check out this link: http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclfuel.htm
(scroll about halfway down the page) for ideas on what you can do w/ injector sizing and fuel octane. Should give you a pretty good idea of how far you can go...

Interesting they say you can't run 26psi on pump gas. I did not know that.

 

[Shane2GSX]

Just involves pulling old ECU and putting new, socketed, DSMLink EPROM(ed?) ECU in while making sure you have them burn the CAS inversion as a default setting. Beyond that, maybe switching your spark plugs around (I haven't really read about that yet, will look later if you want).

What is a CAS inversion?

 

[2gGSX]

You can run whatever boost you'd like as long as your mods and car are up to par, and you tune for no knock.


- What does CAS inversion mean?

For 1G DSMLink, nothing. For the 2G guys, the '95-'96 style Cam Angle Sensor (CAS) sends out a signal that's electrically "inverted" from other DSM cam sensors (1G or '97+ style). When you put a '95 ECU into a car with a non-95 CAS, the ECU ends up swapping the firing order of the injectors. In most cases, this produces very little noticeable difference in drive quality. But we offer the option to invert the CAS signal anyway just in case. You can selectively invert this signal with the DSMLink software as you wish. You will still need to swap your spark wires, though. We can't control spark firing order in the EPROM at crank time. So even with CAS inversion, you still have to swap plug wire 1 with 2 and 3 with 4.

http://www.dsmlink.com/faq.html#cas

My chip was originally burned with CAS inversion on by default, which caused the car to bog when going WOT at first then all of a sudden surge forward, along with massively high EGTs. What was happening was all the fuel was combusting either very late, or mostly inside my exhaust manifold.

 

[Shane2GSX]

You can run whatever boost you'd like as long as your mods and car are up to par, and you tune for no knock.


- What does CAS inversion mean?

For 1G DSMLink, nothing. For the 2G guys, the '95-'96 style Cam Angle Sensor (CAS) sends out a signal that's electrically "inverted" from other DSM cam sensors (1G or '97+ style). When you put a '95 ECU into a car with a non-95 CAS, the ECU ends up swapping the firing order of the injectors. In most cases, this produces very little noticeable difference in drive quality. But we offer the option to invert the CAS signal anyway just in case. You can selectively invert this signal with the DSMLink software as you wish. You will still need to swap your spark wires, though. We can't control spark firing order in the EPROM at crank time. So even with CAS inversion, you still have to swap plug wire 1 with 2 and 3 with 4.

http://www.dsmlink.com/faq.html#cas

My chip was originally burned with CAS inversion on by default, which caused the car to bog when going WOT at first then all of a sudden surge forward, along with massively high EGTs. What was happening was all the fuel was combusting either very late, or mostly inside my exhaust manifold.

Awesome info man, brownie points 4 you!

 

[TalonD27A]

First off, I have done plenty of research on the different aspects of my setup as well as different profiles of people with similar times as my goals. I'm hoping the mods below will get me to my goals, and from the research I've done I think they will. However, this is just a rough draft (for lack of better term) of my planned setup. All constructive criticism is welcome. If anyone has any comments or suggestions please post. Thanks.

Platform:
1999 GSX - 56,000 Miles (Completely Stock) MT
Not my Daily Driver

Goals:
Low to mid 12 second 1/4 time *EDIT* On Pump Gas *EDIT*
Hoping for something in the range or 300-350 AWD HP
Stock weight

Planned Mods: (In no certain order)
Boost, EGT Guages
Apexi N1 3" Catback
Apexi 2.75" DP
Colder Plugs
Dejon Tool Intake
Blitz SS BOV (old style)
Greddy Profec B BC
ACT 2100 or 2600 *EDIT*
Apexi SAFC II
GM MAF
MAFT
Walbro 190 or 255 *EDIT*
650's
Evo III 16G (ported) or 20G not sure which yet
FMIC w/short route 2.25" piping

Future:
DSM Link
Light weight racing rims
Cams

I got to this post a little late and it looks like the topic turned into what engine management he should run. Most people run piggy back or chipped ecu's because they are cheaper, simpler to operate and maintain more of your daily driveability. I'll just jump in and say if its not your daily driver then get the AEM EMS. This solves all your problems with the mas since you can run a map sensor deleting the mas. No air intake restriction is one of the best performance mods for a turbocharged car. You don't need to switch it right away because the system will run off the stock mas if needed. The stock mas will support well over 400whp and since the map sensor is an additional cost, your budget may not allow it. The EMS is around 1700.00
The best thing about the AEM systems is that you can never out-grow it and it will make more power than any piggyback or chipped ecu with many features not offered with other systems.

Lets look at the parts you have on your list....

1. Boost Meter...yes EGT...Not Needed, unless you are road racing or street tuning and with wideband o2 meters becoming more affordable it's waisted money. If your going to get the car dyno tuned then a wideband isn't immediately necessary. The AEM UEGO is 380.00.
2. The good old Apexi N1 3" Catback that isn't a full 3" system and isn't full stainless. Sure it sounds good but you are missing out on some turbo spool up and about 10whp from the reduction at the end of the catback that would mate up to you downpipe. Yes most exhaust systems have reductions in them so they can mate up to the factory exhaust parts since the manufactures don't know what parts everyone has on their cars. Get a full stainless system like the Apexi GT Spec...sounds better than the N1, will last forever, keeps heat in better, and have a good performance shop cut off the reduction and tig weld on a stainless flange and 3" extension to the downpipe.
3. Apexi 2.75" Downpipe...no Get the Road Race DP. It is a 2.5" up to the oil pan and then 3" out to the catback matching up perfectly to your newly modified catback. Again you'll loose power with the smaller dp. I would pay good attention to the exhaust system since the exhaust is where allot of power is and most people just bolt on parts without any real knowledge of what they are doing. Many cars that I have dynoed have made over 50whp from a good full 3" Stainless exhaust.
4. Stay with stock heat range and a good A/F mixture. Only run colder plugs if you have them tuned in, your running more than 20psi, or your getting some decent knock activity.
5. A good intake is fine, but I would go with Injen on the intake pipe if your fitting it up to the stock mas. The aluminum doesn't heat soak as bad and won't rust. If your going map based get an intake made from aluminum and push the filter as close to the fender as possible. Make sure the intake is bigger than the inlet of the turbo.
6. Blitz BOV...sure BOV's, as long as they are from a reputable company and not an ebay special, then its just personal preference.
7. GReddy Profec B...No The AEM EMS can control boost better than any other boost controller. The solenoid is around 45.00 or just run a Hallman Manual Boost Controller for 105.00. You'll save around 200.00 or more.
8. ACT 2100lb 6-puck...Yes Contrary to what most people believe a good clutch should be rated a little under what the engine is making. If you are making say 500hp at the crank then get a clutch ratted at or a little under that. The reason for this is a clutch should slip a little before it engages completely. You don't want to launch your car at the strip with a heavier clutch and send all that power from a stand still to an abrupt 5500rpm. You will spend more money in driveline parts than you would ever want to.
9. Apexi SAFC 2...No Not needed and has very limited tuning ability. 680cc injectors will put you at it's limit. You'll save 340.00
10. & 11. GM MAF & MAFT...No Again not needed. You save 300.00
12. Walbro 255....Yes I'm not sure why the 190 is even sold. The 255 is a good fuel pump and will support about 400whp
13. Get 780cc injectors if you get the AEM EMS. They can be tuned in really well at idle and give you room for more in the future. I recommend RC Engineering
14. Turbos, Turbos, Turbos...So many to choose from and so much scattered info out there. If your requested HP rating was for the crank then I would go with the Evo III Big 16G or Big T28. Don't get any other one than the one from Forced Performance. If properly tuned with the AEM EMS you can get full boost (18-20psi) by 3200rpm. This makes for a great street turbo. If the HP rating was at the wheels then get the BorgWarner S200 from Bullseyepower.com. The turbo is good for 550whp depending on setup and will spool better than a 20G. It will bolt right up to your manifold, o2 housing, and has an internal 38mm wastegate that won't boost creep. Porting is important for spool up and top end power. The Borg Warner turbo won't need ported though and Forced Performance has the option for porting when you order. Again no ebay specials. Purchase a turbo from a real shop with real personal feedback.
15. FMIC w/2.25" Piping...No Get 2.5" piping with a good bar & plate intercooler. 2.25" is to small and would only be accepted on the hot side of the intercooler in some casses. the smaller piping will reduce air volume and for drag that's a no no.

Light weight rims are a must. Unsprung weight has like a 3 to 1 ratio. So say your stock wheels & tires weigh in at 40lbs and your new setup weighs in at 36lbs you saved 4lbs a corner x4=24lbs total. Then in order to save the same kind of weight from the chassis take 24x3=72lbs. It would take 72lbs of dead weight from the chassis to equal that 24lbs of unsprung weight. Ask any DSM owner and they will tell you the Flywheel upgraded is one of the best mods they ever did because of the weight saved the motor would normally turn. The wheels can be an even more noticeable difference. Increase HP, TQ, Throttle Response, Spool Up. Etc.

I think that's enough for now.

 

[TalonD27A]

I forgot about a good FPR like Aeromotive or SX with lines and fittings. Mount the fuel press gauge on the FPR, not the fuel rail. Also a good tubular stainless manifold and a larger o2 housing. Should be good with all the other parts for the power you want.

 

[Shane2GSX]

Holy crap this is confusing. I thought choosing parts would be the easy part, I'm more confused now than ever. When a friend of mine (mustang owner) told me a DSM is dificult and expensive to make over 300 AWD wheel horsepower, I told him he was crazy and it could be done easily. Now I'm not so sure about things....

The AEM EMS is one expensive piece of equipment. But I guess just about any stand alone is. I already have an SAFC, but I could sell that. Even with selling that, not buying DSM Link, MAFT, MAF or boost controller, I'm still losing around $600 going the AEM EMS route. Plus, it looks kinda difficult to tune. Would seem easier to just get a 95 EPROM ECU and a DSMLink to log/tune, MAF and MAFT so I can vent (if I want, still debating).

So the Evo III 16G is not a good turbo to choose for between 300-350 AWD wheel hp? I've seen people running it, I don't understand why it wouldn't be a good turbo to do the job. What about the Bolt On Garrett T04B 50-trim Turbocharger from Bullseye power? It seems like plenty for what I want and is a lot cheaper as well. http://www.bullseye-power.com/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=68