Faster spool than a Holset?

[dsm-onster]

Not sure what logs you're seeing. But they could have issues or running different turbine housings other than the bolt on. Here's is what the bolton hx40 does with the bolton housing: 20psi by 3900rpms in 3rd. Looks more like what you're seeing.

Considering the hx35 has a 20% smaller area turbine wheel with the same aero tech, it certainly must spool substancially faster than the hx40 with the same housing. . . I have logs somewhere in the holset threads of the older tech h1c spooling about like the small 16g. Older tech, same basic turbine wheel shape though. In the bolton housing.

And WRT sub-30psi results. 11.2 @28psi with stock manifolds and 272s. Not bad for a bolton and not the best 60ft. Havn't seen too many fp3052s that can do that at that "lower" boost level with stock manifolds. I know 99% of the dsmlink logs of any holset are of setups that dont have a smim upgrade.

And here's 500whp on a lower reading mustang dyno w/ bolton hx35. 31psi, fp2s, stock intake mani, slipping clutch. That's right on par with a fp3052 if you ask me or even a little better considering the slipping clutch. Look at his torque curve. Nearly full torque at 3900rpms. So FULL boost was clearly before that.

The fp3052 (non hta) spools later than the hx35. And the hotside flows more up top. The stock 12cm^2 hx35 turbine housing puts the spool at about the same, but then you also have a much larger housing for that high end pull (that hx35 hotside has done 132mph in a full weight car). Thing is the compressors flow the same (actually the 7blade compressor flows 60lb/min, 8 more than the fp3052) so the larger hotside that the fp3052 is only really helping to create more hp per psi up to choke; chokes at a lower boost as the hx35 chokes at a higher boost. since the compressors flow similarly. Difference, the hx35 likes the higher boost more than the fp3052 by far. You can get an ERL t3 manifold and a 7blade hx35 and spool about the same as the fp3052 have at least jsut as much power per psi and have 8lb/min more potential flow, while spending less than half in costs for a better flowing setup since you have the erl upgrade manifold.

 

[JusMX141]

I would be looking at flow rates at the same rpm, it is not all about what boost level you are pushing at a given rpm.

Boost level has more to do with airflow than RPM does in my opinion. Compare the airflow numbers on an Evo III 16G, FP 3052, and HX35 at 25psi....then crank the boost up to 30psi with each turbo and see how those peak numbers change.

There are too many variables considering spool time and when a certain turbo generates the most airflow, which is why most guys gauge compressor efficiency by looking at peak airflow numbers at a given RPM and not just airflow at one particular RPM across the board. You can't just figure that all three of the turbos I listed above will make their most airflow at 5375rpms and gauge them on that.

 

[Cassera]

So in your opinions, which ar housing should I use for a hx-40 concidering it is a 2.3 stroker reving to 7000, fp4 cams and power designed for up top. I want to get the most out of the hx-40.

If it is a bigger AR housing what does that effect?
Im assuming slower spool time but more power up top
and a lower AR housing produces faster spool but less power up top than a bigger housing?

Is this right?

If thats the case than I think I'll settle for the hx-40 in a smaller housing because I am confident i will be seeing better results considering I wont be maxing out the hx-40

 

[JusMX141]

I want to get the most out of the hx-40.

T3 .70 without a doubt.

If thats the case than I think I'll settle for the hx-40 in a smaller housing because I am confident i will be seeing better results considering I wont be maxing out the hx-40

Make up your goddamn mind.

 

[Cassera]

Lol, I see how that can be contradicting.....I meant I want to get a wide powerband with the hx-40....or I should say WIDER powerband. Thats what I mean by get the most out of it. I should have said that instead .

Now that this is said, do you still reccomend the .70 ar or smaller?

 

[JusMX141]

Buy the housing that best-supports your engine. Since you have a stroker (not sure of the compression), the added displacement is going to offset the difference between the .55 and .70 housings. Your car may spool a HX40 with the .70 housing as quickly as a 2.0 with the .55 housing, who knows?

Results have shown that the HX40 turbine is better-suited to the .55 housing than the HX35 turbine if you're looking to make some serious airflow. Most HX35's using the DSM bolt-on housing are limited to 52lb/min no matter what compressor you're using, where the HX40 in a bolt-on housing has made big power on a few different cars / setups.

 

[Cassera]

I plan on going around 8:8:1 compression.
So yeah you've convinced of what I need

 

[jm1080]

Not sure what logs you're seeing. But they could have issues or running different turbine housings other than the bolt on. Here's is what the bolton hx40 does with the bolton housing: 20psi by 3900rpms in 3rd. Looks more like what you're seeing.

Considering the hx35 has a 20% smaller area turbine wheel with the same aero tech, it certainly must spool substancially faster than the hx40 with the same housing. . . I have logs somewhere in the holset threads of the older tech h1c spooling about like the small 16g. Older tech, same basic turbine wheel shape though. In the bolton housing.

And WRT sub-30psi results. 11.2 @28psi with stock manifolds and 272s. Not bad for a bolton and not the best 60ft. Havn't seen too many fp3052s that can do that at that "lower" boost level with stock manifolds. I know 99% of the dsmlink logs of any holset are of setups that dont have a smim upgrade.

And here's 500whp on a lower reading mustang dyno w/ bolton hx35. 31psi, fp2s, stock intake mani, slipping clutch. That's right on par with a fp3052 if you ask me or even a little better considering the slipping clutch. Look at his torque curve. Nearly full torque at 3900rpms. So FULL boost was clearly before that.

The fp3052 (non hta) spools later than the hx35. And the hotside flows more up top. The stock 12cm^2 hx35 turbine housing puts the spool at about the same, but then you also have a much larger housing for that high end pull (that hx35 hotside has done 132mph in a full weight car). Thing is the compressors flow the same (actually the 7blade compressor flows 60lb/min, 8 more than the fp3052) so the larger hotside that the fp3052 is only really helping to create more hp per psi up to choke; chokes at a lower boost as the hx35 chokes at a higher boost. since the compressors flow similarly. Difference, the hx35 likes the higher boost more than the fp3052 by far. You can get an ERL t3 manifold and a 7blade hx35 and spool about the same as the fp3052 have at least jsut as much power per psi and have 8lb/min more potential flow, while spending less than half in costs for a better flowing setup since you have the erl upgrade manifold.

Thanks for the informative response, but when you stated what I put in bold, if that is the case that is extremely fast spool for such a big turbo, never heard of that on the hx35, so your saying the old aerotech on h1c is faster spooling with around same airflow as the hx35?

Also maybe it is peoples results that make me stay away, like I havent seen 11sec in a 2g with this turbo, yet I can make it in the 11 sec in my evo 16g running e85, which is a much smaller turbo. Not sure how well this turbo would be running e85, but I think it will yield very good results as well, guess the only way to see is to test it for myself!

I just remember one guy stating he went from evo 16g at 26lbs and switched to BEP hx35 at same boost level and it felt literally the same (a bit lower airflow) with later spool. It supposedly wakes up at 30+lbs from what I heard. Yet a fp green or 3052 from my experience, it pulls much harder at the same boost level of 26lbs. So that makes me real confused as to how the hx35 does not pull hard in that same boost level.

 

[untouchablecc]

Hmm now you got me thinking. I was going for a smaller holset but im curious what would the spool up difference be between a hx 35/ h1c compared to a
hx40 all having the same .55 housing.

Thanks for the informative response, but when you stated what I put in bold, if that is the case that is extremely fast spool for such a big turbo, never heard of that on the hx35, so your saying the old aerotech on h1c is faster spooling with around same airflow as the hx35?

Also maybe it is peoples results that make me stay away, like I havent seen 11sec in a 2g with this turbo, yet I can make it in the 11 sec in my evo 16g running e85, which is a much smaller turbo. Not sure how well this turbo would be running e85, but I think it will yield very good results as well, guess the only way to see is to test it for myself!

I just remember one guy stating he went from evo 16g at 26lbs and switched to BEP hx35 at same boost level and it felt literally the same (a bit lower airflow) with later spool. It supposedly wakes up at 30+lbs from what I heard. Yet a fp green or 3052 from my experience, it pulls much harder at the same boost level of 26lbs. So that makes me real confused as to how the hx35 does not pull hard in that same boost level.

What you are stating though is not facts. Its opinions from people we dont know which has no real place here. Thats like me saying i have a friend with an hx40 that runs 11s. We need dyno sheets facts or just straight personal experience with truth behind it. I dont mean to be argumentative but untill you have actually drove a holset car its kinda hard to share an experience. The fp 3052 is a bad turbo man, i mean it is just nasty. Fast spool and pulls up top good, most of us on here know this. But you can have the same power with minor minor differences for a fraction of the cost. I have not had many people complain about spool up on the smaller holsets. The guys getting into the bigger holsets know that there getting into and want the most power they can get, lag is a bi-product of this. A holset will never spool the same as a 16g, look at the two. I myself have a 16g and love the spool up just like you but if i can do a few small things to make my car spool faster from ideas i have and throw on a bit larger of a turbo like a hx 35 which outspools a 20g then im willing to give it a shot to have a truly impressive street car. Your car is an e85 car so that kinda changes things for us pump gas guys. It gives you a lot more room for error and will pull more out of that 16g. Btw props on running 11s on that thing thats pretty sweet.

 

[dsm-onster]

Thanks for the informative response, but when you stated what I put in bold, if that is the case that is extremely fast spool for such a big turbo, never heard of that on the hx35, so your saying the old aerotech on h1c is faster spooling with around same airflow as the hx35?

hx35 turbine wheel flows a little better with the same spool as the h1c. The blade tips are rounded instead of cut flush with the exducer. And the blades have different aero shape in their thickness.

Also maybe it is peoples results that make me stay away, like I havent seen 11sec in a 2g with this turbo, yet I can make it in the 11 sec in my evo 16g running e85, which is a much smaller turbo. Not sure how well this turbo would be running e85, but I think it will yield very good results as well, guess the only way to see is to test it for myself!

Why don't you think a 2g car can run 11s with this turbo when a 1g car ran 11.2 with stock manifolds and hks 272s at 28psi (see my last post)? the 2g car weighs how much more? Why would a 2g car not be able to run low 11s with 500whp: 500whp bolton housing at 26psi, 500whp bolton housing stock intake manifold (already posted)?

I just remember one guy stating he went from evo 16g at 26lbs and switched to BEP hx35 at same boost level and it felt literally the same (a bit lower airflow) with later spool. It supposedly wakes up at 30+lbs from what I heard. Yet a fp green or 3052 from my experience, it pulls much harder at the same boost level of 26lbs. So that makes me real confused as to how the hx35 does not pull hard in that same boost level.

I just remember a dosen who said different . See the 28psi 11.2 second run and the 500whp at 26psi dyno to which I refered above. Obviously bolton the hx35 is right with the fp3052 and fp green for power at the same boost level in question.

 

[dsm-onster]

. . . but after looking at logs of hx35 (what I planned to buy), these turbos are slow spooling in my eyes. From the logs I have seen. . . Some are 2nd gear pulls too!

The lower the load, the lower slower the spool. 3rd puts more load. The general consensus: start at 2K in 3rd and floor it to red liine to get spool speed.

 

[Cassera]

like I havent seen 11sec in a 2g with this turbo, yet I can make it in the 11 sec in my evo 16g running e85,

YouTube - 11 second Holset hx40 1g dsm

11.9 seconds in a 1g at ONLY 23 PSI AND HE MISSED 4TH GEAR, INJECTORS AT %112 DUTY CYCLE AND A BOOST LEAK

 

[jm1080]

You guys got good points, I just checked out the links as well, checked out this one as well:

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Nice vids, will probably try out the hx35 7 blade in bep housing, prices are getting steep on these turbos though, if it gets too steep, ill have to end up just buying a 50 trim or gt30 bb. Turbo rebuilt + bep housing + lines, external, o2 housing, etc = around 1k+ I guess it still not too bad, just saying though.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yea. I don't know where you can get a used gt30r setup for $1k. And you're including the rebuild in that cost too.

the 8blade hx35 compressor flows the same as a gt30r compressor. The old 54mm h1c compressor flows as much as a 50-trim compressor.

 

[Cassera]

Looks as if those of us that plan on using holset have something to prove.
Dont worry, I plan on proving them in a stroker

I just cant see why everybody puts them down saying other turbos are capable of running 9's meanwhile a good percentage of those people don't run 9's anyway.

We are all dsm'ers and need to stick together instead of bashing eachother

 

[jm1080]

I meant PTE version of gt30r, but yes I have heard bad things about PTE, so I do not plan on buying it anymore hehe. I think I will stick with hx35 once I decide to switch, so a 7 blade flows a bit more than the 8 blade from my readings, so that is a bit more airflow then the gt30r? And from what you are saying h1c is like 50 trim with faster spool, so I'm assuming the 7 blade is like in between the 50trim and gt30r with fast spool? Sounds great! I could always improve spool speed by increasing timing in low rpms so I guess it is no biggy

And I do not see us bashing each other, I see us helping each other.

 

[dsm-onster]

There's nothing to prove to the self-deluded . . . The results are already out there. Whining about et with dyno proof in your face is a farce at best. We should all be runing FWD 14b cars since Bucci runs mid 10s with those.

Cassera is likely refering to the other thread that's proving that one CAN type with their foot in their mouth.

The 7blade hx35 and 8blade hx35 spool close to the same in the bolton housing. The 7blade seams to spool a little later. The 54mm h1c (1991-1993 INTERCOOLED cummins pickup) and 8blade hx35 and wh1c (8blade hx35 compressor) all spool the same.

gt30r has a 52lb/min compressor. hx35 8blade/wh1c has a 52 lb/min compressor. The 54mm h1c has a 49lb/min compressor like the 20g or 50-trim. The 7blade hx35 has a 60lb/min compressor like an s256 and fp red.

 

[red1993gsallmt]

i love my holset and ive went threw many turbos, i also have close to 5k mi on it and there is no hint of shaftplay, just make sure you get your oil supply and drain setup right

 

[Cassera]

Cassera is likely refering to the other thread that's proving that one CAN type with their foot in their mouth.

Yup....This thread is clean tho...no arguing like it should be. The less you argue the more information gets put out there.

Oh you guys can call me Joey.....that is if you remember l
'll be on these forums for a WHILE

 

[jm1080]

There's nothing to prove to the self-deluded . . . The results are already out there. Whining about et with dyno proof in your face is a farce at best. We should all be runing FWD 14b cars since Bucci runs mid 10s with those.

Cassera is likely refering to the other thread that's proving that one CAN type with their foot in their mouth.

The 7blade hx35 and 8blade hx35 spool close to the same in the bolton housing. The 7blade seams to spool a little later. The 54mm h1c (1991-1993 INTERCOOLED cummins pickup) and 8blade hx35 and wh1c (8blade hx35 compressor) all spool the same.

gt30r has a 52lb/min compressor. hx35 8blade/wh1c has a 52 lb/min compressor. The 54mm h1c has a 49lb/min compressor like the 20g or 50-trim. The 7blade hx35 has a 60lb/min compressor like an s256 and fp red.

Thanks for that info dsm-onster! To me it would seem as the 54mm h1c, would have the fastest spool speed, then 8 blade hx35, then 7 blade, I will try and dig up some logs comparing these together and maybe comparing with a 50trim/20g and gt30r turbos. I sort of want something like the 50 trim - gt30r so im thinking either 8 blade or 54mm h1c turbo.

 

[rarson]

Many things effect spool as well. Air flow, compression, displacement, engine timing. There are things you can do to speed up your spool time.

Compression ratio does not affect spool at all. Higher compression ratio makes an off-boost engine more responsive, so it takes less time to get there (and seems like it is spooling faster), but the turbo still spools at the same RPM.

 

[V8killerturbo4]

Thanks for the informative response, but when you stated what I put in bold, if that is the case that is extremely fast spool for such a big turbo, never heard of that on the hx35, so your saying the old aerotech on h1c is faster spooling with around same airflow as the hx35?

Also maybe it is peoples results that make me stay away, like I havent seen 11sec in a 2g with this turbo, yet I can make it in the 11 sec in my evo 16g running e85, which is a much smaller turbo. Not sure how well this turbo would be running e85, but I think it will yield very good results as well, guess the only way to see is to test it for myself!

I just remember one guy stating he went from evo 16g at 26lbs and switched to BEP hx35 at same boost level and it felt literally the same (a bit lower airflow) with later spool. It supposedly wakes up at 30+lbs from what I heard. Yet a fp green or 3052 from my experience, it pulls much harder at the same boost level of 26lbs. So that makes me real confused as to how the hx35 does not pull hard in that same boost level.

The 500whp HX35 is me, I actually fixed a decent boost leak I had that dyno day and now see 35 psi by 3800-3900 rpm. It spools very fast. I need to mount my Hero camera and take a video of boost and rpm and post it up. HP and torque jump so quick the poor tires cant hang on, and I'm AWD.

 

[jm1080]

v8killer, you have a 7 blade hx35 in a BEP housing? That is very fast spool if true, do you happen to have a log of this just as proof? I'm not saying I do not believe you, but people want to see facts.

EDIT: Nevermind I see in your profile you are T3. I wonder what BEP housing would be like then.

 

[dsm-onster]

Compression ratio does not affect spool at all. Higher compression ratio makes an off-boost engine more responsive, so it takes less time to get there (and seems like it is spooling faster), but the turbo still spools at the same RPM.

Higher compression has been known to increase exhaust heat slightly. And higher heat affects spool greatly since the amount of work done on the turbine is a function of exhaust temp.

 

[V8killerturbo4]

v8killer, you have a 7 blade hx35 in a BEP housing? That is very fast spool if true, do you happen to have a log of this just as proof? I'm not saying I do not believe you, but people want to see facts.

EDIT: Nevermind I see in your profile you are T3. I wonder what BEP housing would be like then.

Yes I'm on a 7 blade with T3 housing, my fault I should have said that. I don't have dsm link, best thing I can do is a video...I need link