Evo wanna be! Suspension help

[RedRex02]

I test drove an Evo we got in on trade. I was very pleased the way it handled. It felt very tight and felt GLUED to the pavement. How can I get my 2g FWD to feel close to this of the Evo.
I was thinking a good spring shock combo. Don't have that much to spend. I was looking at the Tokico package, some tein springs mated with some decent KYB's(non adjustable)...
What would you guys reccomend?

Jon

 

[Rx3]

Comparing your DSM suspension to the EVO suspension is not a comparison. Save yourself the headache.


How much are you willing to spend?

Tokico package comes with springs, those are fine, and will probably cost the least amount of money.

 

[ACM]

Making a 2G handle on a par with an Evo is a simple, albeit expensive, exercise.

1 Convert to AWD
2 Convert all suspension arms to spherical bearings or Prothanes instead of soft rubber bushings.
3) Suspension arm adjustability to optimise camber & caster
4) Real dampers (ie not AGX, Illumina, etc).
5) Optimised spring rates, anti-roll bar rates.

Once you have the above, stir in several months of full-time testing to dial everything in and a 2G will hold its own against any Evo, regardless of spec. Well, maybe not against an ACD Evo

Charles

P.S. I forgot, you also need big wide sticky tyres with rock-hard sidewalls !

 

[Flash]

I don't get why you'd have to convert to AWD. Maybe there's something Greg Collier is missing here.

 

[ACM]

You need powered rear wheels for effective steering.

Charles

 

[Rx3]

Making a 2G handle on a par with an Evo is a simple, albeit expensive, exercise.

1 Convert to AWD
2 Convert all suspension arms to spherical bearings or Prothanes instead of soft rubber bushings.
3) Suspension arm adjustability to optimise camber & caster
4) Real dampers (ie not AGX, Illumina, etc).
5) Optimised spring rates, anti-roll bar rates.

Once you have the above, stir in several months of full-time testing to dial everything in and a 2G will hold its own against any Evo, regardless of spec. Well, maybe not against an ACD Evo

Charles

P.S. I forgot, you also need big wide sticky tyres with rock-hard sidewalls !

Somehow, I don't think he's looking to make that kind of investment

I don't get why you'd have to convert to AWD. Maybe there's something Greg Collier is missing here.

Believe me, if Greg had a choice between his current car and an "equally prepared" EVO, he would take the EVO every time. As well as Collier has done with his FWD car, I think he could do better with an AWD car. He does as well as he does now because he is comfortable/familiar with his current setup and he has a considerable amount of skill and experience as a driver, which should probably get more credit than the car. IMHO of course.

 

[Ultimatedsm]

I test drove an Evo we got in on trade. I was very pleased the way it handled. It felt very tight and felt GLUED to the pavement. How can I get my 2g FWD to feel close to this of the Evo.
I was thinking a good spring shock combo. Don't have that much to spend. I was looking at the Tokico package, some tein springs mated with some decent KYB's(non adjustable)...
What would you guys reccomend?

Jon

My advice to you is just buy an EVO .

 

[92awddsm]

Making a 2G handle on a par with an Evo is a simple, albeit expensive, exercise.

1 Convert to AWD
2 Convert all suspension arms to spherical bearings or Prothanes instead of soft rubber bushings.
3) Suspension arm adjustability to optimise camber & caster
4) Real dampers (ie not AGX, Illumina, etc).
5) Optimised spring rates, anti-roll bar rates.

Once you have the above, stir in several months of full-time testing to dial everything in and a 2G will hold its own against any Evo, regardless of spec. Well, maybe not against an ACD Evo

Charles

P.S. I forgot, you also need big wide sticky tyres with rock-hard sidewalls !

You also forgot, replace the the flexy stamped steel control arms on all 4 coners with ridgid aluminum pieces.

 

[Greg Collier]

Believe it or not, I spend a lot of time on this site reading everyone's concepts about power and suspension. What amazes me is all the analogies and theoretical conceptualizations based on mathematical computations and physics 101. I could sit for years with my pro-engineering software and design the ultimate vehicle then throw a chimpanzee in the drivers seat and watch my efforts dissolve before my very eyes. With any mechanically controlled challenge the key element is the individuals abilities to influence the effect with optimum results. Bottom line is, an exceptional driver can drive an AWD, FWD, or RWD, with similar results based on his abilities with car control. If the idea is to be an average driver then go with all the bells and whistles to make it a simple as you possibly can. You'll still be an average driver, and I'll wave as I blow by you on a hairpin turn in my FWD...

Greg
Here's a buddy of mine running his EVO at a Laguna Seca race last year
http://www.muellerized.com/videos/92-silver_car/Laguna_Seca/KJ_at_LagunaSeca.wmv

 

[RedRex02]

Well I guess I will start off with the Tokico Shock/Spring combo and see how I like it. I should have said earlier, that I just want a better feel for daily driver. Stock suspension on a 2G compared to a 2G with the previously mentioned Tokico combo, I am sure I would be happy.

Jon

 

[ACM]

Believe it or not, I spend a lot of time on this site reading everyone's concepts about power and suspension. What amazes me is all the analogies and theoretical conceptualizations based on mathematical computations and physics 101. I could sit for years with my pro-engineering software and design the ultimate vehicle then throw a chimpanzee in the drivers seat and watch my efforts dissolve before my very eyes. With any mechanically controlled challenge the key element is the individuals abilities to influence the effect with optimum results. Bottom line is, an exceptional driver can drive an AWD, FWD, or RWD, with similar results based on his abilities with car control. If the idea is to be an average driver then go with all the bells and whistles to make it a simple as you possibly can. You'll still be an average driver, and I'll wave as I blow by you on a hairpin turn in my FWD...

Greg
Here's a buddy of mine running his EVO at a Laguna Seca race last year
http://www.muellerized.com/videos/92-silver_car/Laguna_Seca/KJ_at_LagunaSeca.wmv

A poor driver will always be slow no matter what (s)he's driving. My 95 hung with the Evos and STis at Nationals last September with me driving like a complete dork. I have no doubt that, had a competent driver been behind the wheel, the car would have finished a lot higher than 6th. Equal drivers in identically prepared AWD and FWD 2Gs will always see the AWD turning faster times - fact of life, rooted in physics.

92awddsm, no need to replace any of the 2G control arms, they're plenty stiff enough - at least up to 1.5 G. If you can build a 2G to consistently pull more than that, well, please come and take over my car ! At these levels it's the bodyshell's torsional rigidity that's more of a problem (not instrumented fact, observational).


RedRex02, forget the Illuminas, at least use Konis with probably JToby's suggestion of H&R springs. If you're going to spend the money at least spend it on something worth the effort.

Charles

 

[RedRex02]

A poor driver will always be slow no matter what (s)he's driving. My 95 hung with the Evos and STis at Nationals last September with me driving like a complete dork. I have no doubt that, had a competent driver been behind the wheel, the car would have finished a lot higher than 6th. Equal drivers in identically prepared AWD and FWD 2Gs will always see the AWD turning faster times - fact of life, rooted in physics.

92awddsm, no need to replace any of the 2G control arms, they're plenty stiff enough - at least up to 1.5 G. If you can build a 2G to consistently pull more than that, well, please come and take over my car ! At these levels it's the bodyshell's torsional rigidity that's more of a problem (not instrumented fact, observational).


RedRex02, forget the Illuminas, at least use Konis with probably JToby's suggestion of H&R springs. If you're going to spend the money at least spend it on something worth the effort.

Charles

So Koni(non-adjustable) and some H&R's ehhh? I do not want them TOO low at all, but I would like a somewhat stiff ride.
Jon

 

[wret]

Most people would add Ground Control collars to that combo.

 

[ACM]

So Koni(non-adjustable) and some H&R's ehhh? I do not want them TOO low at all, but I would like a somewhat stiff ride.
Jon

Adjustable Konis - otherwise you have to find out what springs they were valved for and only go with those rates, plus you can't adjust to taste. You have a much better shot at getting suspension you can live with if you have adjustability.

JToby detailed the particular springs Koni Sports were valved for, which don't lower the car too much and aren't too stiff - that would be the combination I would choose. Or, as wret mentioned, you can go with 2.5" race springs and GC collars, but that will bump your outlay up quite a bit.

Charles

 

[suicidal2af]

A poor driver will always be slow no matter what (s)he's driving. My 95 hung with the Evos and STis at Nationals last September with me driving like a complete dork. I have no doubt that, had a competent driver been behind the wheel, the car would have finished a lot higher than 6th. Equal drivers in identically prepared AWD and FWD 2Gs will always see the AWD turning faster times - fact of life, rooted in physics.

Charles

I have no doubt of that statement when autocross is concerned, however on a roadtrack you probably would not see much difference. Any time a FWD would lose in the turns, it would make up for on the straights. Would it still lose, given equal preparation and drivers? Probably, but not by a large margin.

 

[bjones18]

I test drove an Evo we got in on trade. I was very pleased the way it handled.... How can I get my 2g FWD to feel close to this of the Evo.
Jon

The dartboard approach (throw parts at it) may improve cornering capacity, but it might not change how it feels to the driver.

The big difference in "feel" comes from a team of driving experts working with design engineers and component suppliers to "tune" the vehicle response to driver input (along with providing feedback to the driver).

Good luck if you have little or no vehicle dynamics and part swap - evaluation experience. It can take years to develop this talent.

Think about it...
- EVO is known as a hot little car.
- Auto mag's have identifed this as a fun car.
- all auto companies benchmark competitive vehicles.
- If it were easy to do... don't you think all cars would feel this way?

 

[jtmcinder]

H&R OE Sports go hand in hand with Koni Sports and do not over-lower the car. Yes, they say FWD only. Ignore them and put them on any 2G.

As to adding GC collars to such: that is not possible. No aftermarket spring designed to replace the stock springs has a flat bottom. They are all very uneven at the bottom to match the stock lower perch, so they won't work on a flat collar.

- Jtoby

 

[daren_p]

Well I guess I will start off with the Tokico Shock/Spring combo and see how I like it. I should have said earlier, that I just want a better feel for daily driver. Stock suspension on a 2G compared to a 2G with the previously mentioned Tokico combo, I am sure I would be happy.

Jon

I have never been in an evo so I can't compare but I do run the tokico springs with their illumina shocks and its a HUGE improvement over stock. With the shocks on the weekest setting their abit firmer then stock in normal ride but when you start to push it abit they get firmer as the springs are progressive. On the firmest setting they are pretty firm not bad for smooth roads or short trips but could get annoying otherwise. I run 4 front & 3 rear (1 weekest 5 firmest). Also a set of strut tower bars and sway bars will really help to flatten out the corners & finally a true lsd such as the Quaife will help you power through the corners.

 

[RedRex02]

I have never been in an evo so I can't compare but I do run the tokico springs with their illumina shocks and its a HUGE improvement over stock. With the shocks on the weekest setting their abit firmer then stock in normal ride but when you start to push it abit they get firmer as the springs are progressive. On the firmest setting they are pretty firm not bad for smooth roads or short trips but could get annoying otherwise. I run 4 front & 3 rear (1 weekest 5 firmest). Also a set of strut tower bars and sway bars will really help to flatten out the corners & finally a true lsd such as the Quaife will help you power through the corners.

Ok, gotta bring this thread back to life. It's summer time, I got my tune/power mods all done, and now it's time to kmake the car feel more fun.
Are some guys still sayin some Tokico springs with Illumina's are a good combo for the average Joe?

 

[RedRex02]

I am thinking Tokico Illumina(adjustable) and some Tein S Tech's... What ya'll think?
Jon

 

[RedRex02]

Or some KYB GR's and some tein S Tech. I was looking at the Eibachs and it seems the pro kit only drops it about an inch, whgich seems VERY little, and the sportlines are too much(without a camber kit)
tein S Tech seems best of both worlds.

maybe these... Says 1.5-2, thats a big difference...http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=1912&

Let me know guys

 

[wongster]

welll i have the tokico illumina and eibach springs sitting at home right now.. cant install them this weekend.. prob next weekend.. will let you know how they feel..

 

[RedRex02]

welll i have the tokico illumina and eibach springs sitting at home right now.. cant install them this weekend.. prob next weekend.. will let you know how they feel..

Or even some KYB AGX's and just cutting the stock spring to lower it about an inch?

I just like the idea of adjustable struts, due to the fact I am FWD and it is hard to hook 300/300+ to the wheels...

Lemme know.
Jon

 

[RedRex02]

or this Tokico ILL package is looking nicer and nicer every time I look at it. Adjustable shocks with a drop that is in between the prokit and sportlines.

Ebay prices are looking even better! I read a huge thread about cutting stock springs. They said the heat could mess up the modules of the spring, creating the wrong resistance and whatnot.

I am replying to my own thread, this is like the Rogerian Method of Psycho Therapy, I am allowingmyself to explore my own options, .

 

[LONEWOLF01]

i don't really see the point of looking for a evo style suspension there is very few roads in nyc that take advantage of it. how many twisty roads are in your neigborhood? i thought of doing something for my 1g but i mat get a hotbits suspension energy suspension bushings if anybody can provide a link for those adjustable control arms i will appriacte it. evo's are ment for the track but in the streets i think 1g and 2g are better. (less weight). plus if you are weekend warrior just build a racecar from scratch. beleive me it will make your life easier.

i am looking to purchase a sports d race car for my self but find out they are about 50g's i may get a used 350z gut it and put all the saftey i need then race. i don't like fixing carsjust driveing them

america roads are mostly straight. not as twisty as other contries. i say tune for the area you will be driveing in.