Evo wanna be! Suspension help

[FutureGSXOwner]

Long Answer

IMO, stock evo's have that "feeling" of handling good because the OEM shocks have too much damping force. It works, and they do put down impressive times but it shouldnt take much to make your DSM handle just as well.

The areas we are behind the evo's in is chassis stiffness (A cage doesnt fix this unless youre tying in the front strut towers), and in the 04(& up) RS/MR and 05 (& up) GSR, the ACD and torsen LSD.

Let us know how aggressive you're willing to go, and we can help you more. I say this because if you want 600+lb/in front springs, then a greater split in the spring rates along with a softer rear bar should make things a bit more predictable. If just just want something like eibach pro-kit with koni's then both front and rear sways would be appropriate because of your lack of spring in the front.

Short Answer

Low Cost - eibach springs, tokico's, RM bars (can you still buy these?)

Med Cost - Ground Controls, Koni's, RM bars, and a few extra spring rates to play with the car balance.

High Cost - Uhh, I havent gotten there yet.

Sorry to chime in so late but it's been a busy week. I'm willing to go high cost and would prefer a coilover system. Are GC's better than Tein? Also what is the lb split on the evo? I'm willing to get sway bars but I don't know what getting a "softer" one means..I'm fairly new to suspension but I'm catching on a bit just from reading the thread Thanks for the help so far. I basically just wanna have a smooth ride on long drives and not feel like im gonna get a flat tire every time I hit a bump, all while having superb cornering..So what does the dream setup look like guys? I need prices..

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Sorry to chime in so late but it's been a busy week. I'm willing to go high cost and would prefer a coilover system. Are GC's better than Tein? Also what is the lb split on the evo? I'm willing to get sway bars but I don't know what getting a "softer" one means..I'm fairly new to suspension but I'm catching on a bit just from reading the thread Thanks for the help so far. I basically just wanna have a smooth ride on long drives and not feel like im gonna get a flat tire every time I hit a bump, all while having superb cornering..So what does the dream setup look like guys? I need prices..

If you want a smooth ride, go with bigger sway bars and a softer spring rate. Higher the spring rate, the more "bumpy" the ride will be. Sway bars have no effect on the smoothness of the ride, but while turning where wieght is being transfered, the sway bar will "try" and level the ride out giving more equal weight to each tire.

 

[ACM]

I have 700 fr/550 rr on Shocktek Bilsteins with RM antiroll bars for my street DSM - a very comfortable setup. The autocrosser has 800 fr/650 rr on Penske 8760s with RM bars - again, very comfortable. Both of these setups are noticably more comfortable than my winter setup of 500/350s on Koni Sports.

Damper quality has a much larger effect on comfort that spring rate.

Charles

 

[Dallas J]

I have 700 fr/550 rr on Shocktek Bilsteins with RM antiroll bars for my street DSM - a very comfortable setup. The autocrosser has 800 fr/650 rr on Penske 8760s with RM bars - again, very comfortable. Both of these setups are noticably more comfortable than my winter setup of 500/350s on Koni Sports.

Damper quality has a much larger effect on comfort that spring rate.

Charles

Whats the cost for the Shocktek's vs the Penske's? Next winter Im gonna need to either rebuild the koni's and get them revalved or just step up to something a little better to run higher rates.

Also, with your car hows the corner entry oversteer with the 650's and rm bar on the rear? My car was uncontrollable with the 450s and rm bar in the back.

 

[ACM]

Whats the cost for the Shocktek's vs the Penske's? Next winter Im gonna need to either rebuild the koni's and get them revalved or just step up to something a little better to run higher rates.

Also, with your car hows the corner entry oversteer with the 650's and rm bar on the rear? My car was uncontrollable with the 450s and rm bar in the back.

With the 35:65 centre diff it's a little loose, specially in rain I disconnect the rear bar for rain events now, which balances the car beautifully. This is a dedicated autocross car, so the setup is optimised for autocross speeds - it would be uncontrollable at higher speed.

How loose a car is depends both on how you drive it and also how skilled a driver you are. I used to share a car with an autocrosser who was a much better driver than I - his 'nicely loose' was uncontrollable for me, it took two seasons of dedicated driving before I was able to drive the car with any confidence.


ShockTeks are sadly no longer available. Penskes are very expensive as they have to be custom made for the 2G. This obviously adds a premium compared to off-the-shelf Penske prices, my guess is that a basic Penske damper will run around $1k per corner, and go up from there with additional features. You'd then need to add the cost of springs, mounts, hardware, etc.

I have not found anybody to build Ohlins for a 2G so far (I'm still trying though !) which would be a much more cost-effective solution for a basic suspension package. They would cost the same as Penskes though when built to a similar level of sophistication.

TrueChoice have built DA Koni kits for the 2G, but more importantly they have built a 2512 setup for at least one 2G that I know of - no idea what they charged though or whether that type of Koni would survive normal street driving for any length of time. Street duty is why I am still pursuing Ohlins, I know that Ohlins will survive indefinitely on the street, including winter use.

Charles

 

[Dallas J]

The talon is slowly becoming a dedicated auto-x car. Itll probably get driven on the street just for the fun of it, and tuning but not on a daily basis. Ill have to check with truechoice to see what they can do for me.

I know you run in ESP (or were at least); what have you been able to do to stiffen up the chassis? I need to find a non-sunroof car, but theirs still the issue with "The Fold" as marco puts it. I with SM would let us put in triangulated bars since some the cars come with them anyways (SN95 mustangs, evos..)

 

[ACM]

A non-sunroof bodyshell is critical, otherwise you need a full rollcage which adds a lot of weight, all up high. If you run SM you can just weld sheet steel over the sunroof hole and get pretty much the same rigidity with just a small weight penalty, but if you run Stock, ST* or SP you would have to do a factory conversion to be legal.

All I run in the autocrosser are RRE's 3 braces, and whilst I don't have instrumented data to back up my observations, I don't think the car is flexing much, if at all. Against this, my sunroofed 98 felt like over-cooked lasagna, even with the RRE braces in place, and that's just on street tyre - the flex is very obvious. I just transferred all the parts from my sunroofed 98 (it's rusting away) onto a new-to-me non-sunroof 95.5 - the difference is night and day, it's amazing how much better, more precise, the 'new' car is.

What's this "fold" ?

Charles

 

[Dallas J]

Ive been looking for a non-sunroof 2g around here, but of course because im looking none are available.

The fold can be seen by jacking up the car at the front crossmember and putting jackstands up as far as possible. Then let the the front down and observe the amount of flex. I got the term from Marco and he was saying the only way to get a real stiff chassis in a 2g is to tie together the strut towers to the bar under the dash or a knee bar.

 

[Flash]

:ugh: , If you want good handling stay away from most of the "JDM" names. All they add to youre car is hype.

I guess that is why the HKS Evo came over from Japan and wiped everyones ass at the Redline Time Attack at ButtonWillow by like 4 seconds.

Any suspension part that actually works well on the track will cost more as it is developed with a performance oriented objective. Most cheap tuner parts in the US or for the US are not developed with a performance oriented objectives. Cheap parts are built around cost and profitability.
Tein makes an entry-level suspension system that works for the street. They also equip the Cyber Evo in Japan with their suspension, and it is constantly on the tail of the HKS Evo. So don't just discredit Japan parts totally. To compare track suspension components to street-oriented suspension components is comparing apples to oranges.
But there are also a lot of great track suspensions out there like Moton, Sachs, Ohlins, Quantum,etc... just all cost money and aren't built around the cost.

 

[Black95TSIawd]

I guess that is why the HKS Evo came over from Japan and wiped everyones ass at the Redline Time Attack at ButtonWillow by like 4 seconds.

Any suspension part that actually works well on the track will cost more as it is developed with a performance oriented objective. Most cheap tuner parts in the US or for the US are not developed with a performance oriented objectives. Cheap parts are built around cost and profitability.
Tein makes an entry-level suspension system that works for the street. They also equip the Cyber Evo in Japan with their suspension, and it is constantly on the tail of the HKS Evo. So don't just discredit Japan parts totally. To compare track suspension components to street-oriented suspension components is comparing apples to oranges.
But there are also a lot of great track suspensions out there like Moton, Sachs, Ohlins, Quantum,etc... just all cost money and aren't built around the cost.

You cannot compare company sponsored vehicles that have custom one off pieces specifically made for that vehicle and that type of racing. Although they may be built by tein or HKS does not mean that they are the off the shelf parts available on market. The only decent performing cars i've seen with a set of JIC's or teins or whatever have all been re-valved or "tuned up" by a shop. I'll stick to my koni/hypercoil setup and I'm sure they are just as good as any other without spending a quazillian dollars. (yes, i made that word up)

 

[Dallas J]

I guess that is why the HKS Evo came over from Japan and wiped everyones ass at the Redline Time Attack at ButtonWillow by like 4 seconds.

Any suspension part that actually works well on the track will cost more as it is developed with a performance oriented objective. Most cheap tuner parts in the US or for the US are not developed with a performance oriented objectives. Cheap parts are built around cost and profitability.
Tein makes an entry-level suspension system that works for the street. They also equip the Cyber Evo in Japan with their suspension, and it is constantly on the tail of the HKS Evo. So don't just discredit Japan parts totally. To compare track suspension components to street-oriented suspension components is comparing apples to oranges.
But there are also a lot of great track suspensions out there like Moton, Sachs, Ohlins, Quantum,etc... just all cost money and aren't built around the cost.

What that car had on were almost guaranteed to be nothing like the OTS compenants sold. And when I say "JDM" Im talking about the cheap tein, D2, Skunk2, etc. For the most part, these are moderate upgrades. The big problem comes when you actually need to rebuild or revalve one. While koni isnt the easiest thing to get revalved, it can at least be done in country.

 

[Flash]

You cannot compare company sponsored vehicles that have custom one off pieces specifically made for that vehicle and that type of racing. Although they may be built by tein or HKS does not mean that they are the off the shelf parts available on market. The only decent performing cars i've seen with a set of JIC's or teins or whatever have all been re-valved or "tuned up" by a shop. I'll stick to my koni/hypercoil setup and I'm sure they are just as good as any other without spending a quazillian dollars. (yes, i made that word up)

Read Dallas J's post, I was pointing that out.
You are right though about custom pieces. Tein offers custom suspension parts, so does Zeal, Sachs, Moton, Quantum, and they all range up into the multi-thousands of dollars. But if you are serious about a suspension, then there is no cheap way around it.
I just brought it up to Dallas because I didn't see his point, but now I understand he was referring to the less expensive street stuff.

 

[Dallas J]

Read Dallas J's post, I was pointing that out.
You are right though about custom pieces. Tein offers custom suspension parts, so does Zeal, Sachs, Moton, Quantum, and they all range up into the multi-thousands of dollars. But if you are serious about a suspension, then there is no cheap way around it.
I just brought it up to Dallas because I didn't see his point, but now I understand he was referring to the less expensive street stuff.

Sounds like were on the same page now

 

[Black95TSIawd]

Read Dallas J's post, I was pointing that out.
You are right though about custom pieces. Tein offers custom suspension parts, so does Zeal, Sachs, Moton, Quantum, and they all range up into the multi-thousands of dollars. But if you are serious about a suspension, then there is no cheap way around it.
I just brought it up to Dallas because I didn't see his point, but now I understand he was referring to the less expensive street stuff.

Gotcha

How does that song go..... "If I had a million dollars....." Yea....if.

 

[RipperXX]

Long Answer



Short Answer

Low Cost - eibach springs, tokico's, RM bars (can you still buy these?)

Med Cost - Ground Controls, Koni's, RM bars, and a few extra spring rates to play with the car balance.

High Cost - Uhh, I havent gotten there yet.

Yes you can buy RM bars, infact I installed a RM rear sway bar w/urathane bushings, Eibach springs, AGX shocks/struts and strut tower bars. And it is a HUGEnight and day difference. One of my friends who is building up his 94 RX-7 / FD3S got a chance to ride in it and the difference shocked him.

Also I just checked Bilsteins website and the only shocks I could find for a 1g anyway were Touring class shocks, any idea how they would compair to my AGX's? Are they kind of like GR2's?

 

[JOEY A]

LSD all 3 diffs!

 

[JOEY A]

I wonder then if you will be if/when you resolve your fender issues. That's the issue I have and will be throwing on some overfenders (and of course cutting up the stock metal) after xmas is over.

They make quit a few wide body fenders for 2Gs

 

[TSiAWD666]

They make quit a few wide body fenders for 2Gs

Not that integrate with the rest of the stock body panels, and none that are a bolt-on affair. Of course if you know of an option to the contrary please post it I'd love to find something easy to use. There are a handful of widebody kits but they look god awful.

 

[JOEY A]

Not that integrate with the rest of the stock body panels, and none that are a bolt-on affair. Of course if you know of an option to the contrary please post it I'd love to find something easy to use. There are a handful of widebody kits but they look god awful.

Ever think of having the rear fenders pulled out like the 240/RX7 guys do?


2Gs front fenders are not metal correct? Those would have to have some unvi flares added and molded on...


Yeah again wish somone made some bolton stuff, but most wide bodies for all cars is custom shit

 

[ACM]

LSD all 3 diffs!

I wish it were that simple ! There are already 2 LSDs in an AWD DSM (most at least), and adding a third - the front - is very much a double-edged sword. Front LSDs cause all kinds of unwanted behaviour, and typically only improve the car's dynamics in 1 or 2 tightly defined situations, so depending on the use of the vehicle it's possible to fit a front LSD and actually degrade the car's dynamics under all the conditions it actually experiences. A mechanical LSD in front only works for you if you go in straight lines, and a helical front understeers badly off throttle, forcing you to attack every turn under +ve throttle - fine on autocross and road course, but do you really want to on the road, all the time ? The active Evos all run front helicals, and by playing with the throttle mid-turn (far below the limit) this effect can be felt very clearly. Not the kind of dynamic you want to expose an average driver to.

The same applies to replacing the other 2 LSDs with different types other than VC.

A mechanical (ie clutch plate) rear LSD makes the car noisier, harsher, and less comfortable for driver and passenger. A mechanical centre LSD makes the car a 4WD truck on lockup - for most driving environments that will be a major degradation (along with the previously noted disadvantages).

A Torsen/Quaife (helical) in the rear would be very bad, as most DSMs lift their inside rear when running race tyres - instant open diff and no drive. A helical in the centre probably doesn't have any negatives, except that it doesn't help shunt power to the rear when the rear starts to move around, where an open/VC centre diff will, thereby helping the car to steer under throttle. A centre helical will shunt that power to the front instead, so now you're overworking the front tyres, increasing the stresses they have to manage. For autocross at least, a car that is pushy will rapidly overwork the front tyres leading to loss of grip, making the car more pushy which overworks them some more which...Not good at all.

Charles (needs a spellchecker)

 

[Dallas J]

From what Ive read, the front helical LSD works wonders on an Auto-X dsm. My guess is that since our set ups generally require us to get on the throttle very early (slow in, fast out) to get boost to use the AWD advantage of pulling out of the corner. This should allow you to accelerate earlier which lets you get into power earlier, all good in my book.

It probably requires a bit of a change in driving style since a lot of us come in hot to get more rotation and let the tires scrub off speed. I think id like to drive a car before I get one, but Ive been real tempted to just order one while the engine/tranny is already out of the car.

-Dallas J

 

[TSiAWD666]

Ever think of having the rear fenders pulled out like the 240/RX7 guys do?


2Gs front fenders are not metal correct? Those would have to have some unvi flares added and molded on...


Yeah again wish somone made some bolton stuff, but most wide bodies for all cars is custom shit

My thoughts on getting fenders to fit big tires are to have something somewhat replaceable in an accident. Pulled fenders (modified stock) or pieces molded into place don't meet this goal. You can see from the goal why I was looking for a bolt-on affair. As for the front, they are metal like the rear.

I'll have to hope the 240z overfenders on the way will suffice, like they did for Mavisky. If they don't, I'll have to talk to a local shop that did what you describe to an EVO that turned out amazingly well.

 

[ACM]

From what Ive read, the front helical LSD works wonders on an Auto-X dsm. My guess is that since our set ups generally require us to get on the throttle very early (slow in, fast out) to get boost to use the AWD advantage of pulling out of the corner. This should allow you to accelerate earlier which lets you get into power earlier, all good in my book.

It probably requires a bit of a change in driving style since a lot of us come in hot to get more rotation and let the tires scrub off speed. I think id like to drive a car before I get one, but Ive been real tempted to just order one while the engine/tranny is already out of the car.

-Dallas J

Indeed it does - under power a helical front pulls the nose into the turn, allowing you to apply more throttle and earlier. A lot of things need to change - car setup, driving style - you have to commit totally because if you back out of the throttle, the understeer is far more severe compared to a stock front diff. The transition from off- to on-throttle induces a significant change in the car's behaviour, so you have to be far more precise than before. In reality, under autocross conditions the negative aspects of a helical front should not interfere - but we all get it wrong at times, and this is one "aid" that will really slap you for being sloppy, imprecise etc.

Charles

 

[Flash]

My thoughts on getting fenders to fit big tires are to have something somewhat replaceable in an accident. Pulled fenders (modified stock) or pieces molded into place don't meet this goal. You can see from the goal why I was looking for a bolt-on affair. As for the front, they are metal like the rear.

I'll have to hope the 240z overfenders on the way will suffice, like they did for Mavisky. If they don't, I'll have to talk to a local shop that did what you describe to an EVO that turned out amazingly well.

This way requires some metal work, but it looks like it rolled out of the factory that way. Best way to do it.

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