Evo 3 16g Setup

[maxtsitalon]

I bought the Evo 16g turbo and ported 2g manifold for my 92 fwd tsi. I was planning on buying 550cc injectors and a 190 lph fuel pump and SAFC 2. Should i get bigger injectors and and 255 injectors and fpr? I was told i would max out the 550's and the fuel pump. Also what type of numbers can i expect with this set up. I also have 2.5 inch exaust and the mods that are on my profile.

 

[white92tsiawd]

Well, I am basically in the same boat as you. I also have a big 16g (wish it was an evo III big 16g), I instead have a tubular exhaust manifold, but the difference between those in this stage is minimal. With the stock 2g manifold, you will notice spooling is much quicker because of the short runners as compared to the tubular manifolds with longer runners. You will not max out a 190 fuel pump with your mods listed. 255 is only necessary if you are plannning on putting a HUGE turbo in your car. I just purchsed a 255 and now Im kinda bummed knowing I have to buy an AFPR kit eventually to make it run like its supposed to. Stick with your 190 IF you already have it, when I bought my car there was no fuel pump in it so I just went for the 255 (also ### some guy I knew was selling it for $70 brand new!)

550 injectors would be good, but save the money and go with some evo 560 injectors. OEM quality, fit DSMs perfectly, in my opnion better than paying $200+ for some RC or FIC injectors. I just bought mine last week for $145. Get an SAFC-II, you will need it, but also make sure you buy a 2g MAS, you will need this for sure, and in turn will need an SAFC to control the increased airflow.

I dont know much about track runs and what to expect from these upgrades, but my guess is you would run maybe a 14? Then again, I dont know what to expect from FWD cars. Let me know if I helped any, or if you have any other questions.

 

[ILLiCliPSE]

go with 550's and a 190...thats what im doing for my agp t28. itll be too hard to tune with an safc if you have anything more IMO.

 

[appleyard777]

go with 550's and a 190...thats what im doing for my agp t28. itll be too hard to tune with an safc if you have anything more IMO.

x2 thats what i did with my evo316g setup, just running SAFCII and a datalogger, tuning is not too bad at all

 

[andymoraitis]

The pump and injectors you've chosen are fine if you plan to stay relatively moderate on the boost but if you plan on maxing out the EVO III 650's and a 255/AFPR combo are required.

When building your fuel system you should always over build it to handle more than you need as this avoids doing the work twice. I'd also ditch the AFC as a sole tuning device. Those things are garbage.

Just my .02,

Andy

 

[maxtsitalon]

So i was planning on running like 20 psi i should go with the 650's and 255 fuel pump?

 

[ILLiCliPSE]

if you have a wideband, just watch your a/f ratios, also watch your IDCs, watch your timing, and if you have an EGT guage, watch that. 20psi shouldnt be a problem.

 

[Siral3x]

HMM..you guys should buy a logger and a/f ratio gauge before you bolt any turbo/fuel upgrade. For a EVO3 yeah a 190lph and 550cc is an ok upgrade, however most people upgrade from that basic setup in no time...so I would go BIG with the fuel upgrade that wya you don't have to worry abt it latter....then go from there..
Buying new parts 550cc inj/190lph pump/SAFAC etc they will lose value, and it will end up costing you more when you want to upgrade latter..

 

[wvturbo2]

how hard is it to max out the 190. I got a 190 and 680cc.

 

[daveyfx]

When building your fuel system you should always over build it to handle more than you need as this avoids doing the work twice. I'd also ditch the AFC as a sole tuning device. Those things are garbage.

Just my .02,

Andy

Andy,

What would you recommend as an affordable (yet viable, in your eyes at least) alternative to the AFC?

 

[wvturbo2]

Maf and maf translator gen 2 is about the same except it has things like wideband tracking. Look into it and make sure its GEN 2 not 1

 

[JayRolla]

I know what Andy will say. He does not like the SAFC at all. He will say go with a keydriver chip with custom fuel maps, and timing. You would need an eprom ecu.

Andy also didnt you say the 190lph/550's where fine untill you put in cams than you ran out of fuel? On a stock head wont the 190 and 550's be enough? This is what im going with.

 

[wvturbo2]

How much can a 190lph push ?

 

[2gGSX]

As a disclaimer to what I'm about to post, the numbers given are absolute maximums and do not account for any pressure drops within the lines, faulty injectors, etc etc and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. Understand that this is all stated in theory and should be understood as such. If you are going to use this data for pump sizing then at least multiply all numbers by .9 to give yourself a 10% margin of safety. With that said...





You can use the regressions
[12.5V] y=455.165(.9789)^x where y is the flow in LPH and x is fuel pressure.
[14.0V] y=585.432(.9771)^x same as above

Given a base fuel pressure of 43 psi. The format I'll give is boost pressure, flow (lph) at stock voltage and then rewired

Psi/Stock Voltage/Rewired 14v
15 132.13 152.74
16 129.34 149.24
17 126.61 145.82
18 123.94 142.48
19 121.32 139.22
20 118.76 136.03
21 116.26 132.91
22 113.80 129.87
23 111.40 126.90
24 109.05 123.99
25 106.75 121.15

The absolute maximum amount of fuel flow supported (cc/min, e.g. same as injector sizes) that these flow rates will support per injector for 4 injectors and a specific gravity of .76 (93 octane) fuel is...



Psi/Stock Voltage/Rewired 14v

15 550.54 636.42
16 538.92 621.83
17 527.54 607.58
18 516.42 593.67
19 505.50 580.08
20 494.83 566.76
21 484.42 553.79
22 474.17 541.13
23 464.17 528.75
24 454.38 554.13
25 444.79 504.79

Thus, at 25 psi and rewired to 14v the fuel pump will only supply 504cc/min of fuel regardless of what size injector you have. Meaning, with 550cc or 1000cc injectors you're still only going to get 504cc/min MAX.



The absolute maximum fuel flow (lbs/min) at said boost levels for 4 injectors and .76 sg
Psi/Stock Voltage/Rewired 14v
15 3.686 4.262
16 3.608 4.164
17 3.532 4.068
18 3.458 3.975
19 3.385 3.884
20 3.313 3.795
21 3.244 3.708
22 3.175 3.623
23 3.108 3.541
24 3.043 3.711
25 2.978 3.380

Hopefully if you understand why I gave this data in lbs/min you'll know how to use it. For everyone else, this gives you a VERY general idea of how much airflow your setup can support at a given boost level when limited by the fuel pump. To calculate that, multiply your fuel flow by your target air/fuel ratio (AFR) to get maximum supportable airflow. An example would be 3.380 x 10.8 = 36.5 lbs/min maximum supportable airflow.

As you can see from the numbers above, a rewired 190 is not big enough to support large injectors at higher boost levels (or even low actually). Regardless of that, it should supply enough fuel for most people until they start seeing close to 40 lbs/min airflow.

Oh, and to answer the original question above, to find the "maximum power" you can push, find out your maximum supported airflow and multiply that by 10. That is an estimate of your crank hp.

 

[maxtsitalon]

Well im kinda a newb so its hard to understand all that, but i have an a/f gauge, and boost gauge. ported 2g manifold and evo 3 16g. I want to run like 20 or 21 psi. what is my best setup for this as far injectors and fuel pump? can i still use the evo 560's or should if go with the 650's? also 190 lph or 255 fuel pump? with a fuel pressure regulator?

 

[oldman]

HMM..you guys should buy a logger and a/f ratio gauge before you bolt any turbo/fuel upgrade.

No tuning should ever be done without an A/F gauge.

 

[maxtsitalon]

Anyone? I was planning on buying my injectors and fuel pump with in the week and i didn't want to make a mistake any ifno would be very help full .

 

[napoleon]

Im running the same turbo, 550s and 190lph, GM 3'' MAF and MAFT with crappy IC parts. I run 22-24 psi on 93 and never see AFR above 12.5 at WOT. I need to see what my AFPR is set at. Sounds like it shouldnt be a prob as long as you dial it in

 

[maxtsitalon]

I've been searching and found many different replies about this subject but becasue there are so many different responses its hard to come to one conclusion. I dont plan on buying a bigger turbo or upgrading. I have had my Evo 3 16g sitting in my garage for some time now and have some extra money to spend so i would like to finish my car. How much psi would i be able to run safley with 550's and a 190 lph fuel pump, compared to 550's with a 255 and a fuel pressure regulater? My tuning will be done with a pocket logger and Safc 2. My car will mostly be set up to run on the streets there isn't a track close to me. Thank you for all the help.

 

[TSIMonsteR]

Go with the 255 and AFPR. They have a kit on www.importevolution.com for like $270.

Go DSMLink on the tunning. Save your pennies and nickles.. you won't regret it.

 

[JayRolla]

I've been searching and found many different replies about this subject but becasue there are so many different responses its hard to come to one conclusion. I dont plan on buying a bigger turbo or upgrading. I have had my Evo 3 16g sitting in my garage for some time now and have some extra money to spend so i would like to finish my car. How much psi would i be able to run safley with 550's and a 190 lph fuel pump, compared to 550's with a 255 and a fuel pressure regulater? My tuning will be done with a pocket logger and Safc 2. My car will mostly be set up to run on the streets there isn't a track close to me. Thank you for all the help.

The 190lph will be fine. You will beable to run the same amount of boost most likely with both setups. The 190lph rewired can handle more airflow than the evo is even capable of producing, so its fine. Andy one of the wisemen on here was running an evo16g on a 2.3 stroker and had enough fuel. When he added some comp cams he said he ran a little lean in the upper rpm range running around 26psi if I remember right.

 

[DSMunknown]

The pump and injectors you've chosen are fine if you plan to stay relatively moderate on the boost but if you plan on maxing out the EVO III 650's and a 255/AFPR combo are required.

When building your fuel system you should always over build it to handle more than you need as this avoids doing the work twice. I'd also ditch the AFC as a sole tuning device. Those things are garbage.

Just my .02,

Andy

Andy, I was wondering what you thought about this:



http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245963post#21

 

[gringo72884]

I have a evo III and all supporting mods. I have a 255 hp FP rewired , a aeromotive FPR with a guage, and FIC 650 injectors and I am able to run 21-22lbs of boost with no knock. I would suggest this combo as it really leaves you room to upgrade to a larger turbo in the future also if you are getting to much fuel with this combo you can just use a afc to lower the fuel. I am about to put on my built head that has crower retainers/springs, stainless steel valves, ferrea valve keepers, comp 101200 cams, and some other stuff and after that install I should be well over 400 crank hp with the EVoIII.

 

[gringo72884]

the 21-22lbs i am running are with 93 octance pump gas by the way

 

[EuroGSTSpyder]

When I had my spyder I ran a 190pump and 650s for my ported B16g...never had any problems what so ever. All data read just fine

I have bought the same setup for my 1g talon now and I hope it will be good enough when I get the turbo.Right now I am on stock 14b but since I am upping boost some I got the pump injectors and all the other upgrades as well.