2G Engine assembly timing

[Bedicine]

Hoping for some insight as I’m in the process of assembling my motor which just came back from MAP.

I didn’t realize when starting that the crank key way was in the up position and it looks like it should be at the 9pm for timing. I’ve currently got the cams installed, sprockets, water pump, pretty much everything but will I be able to set timing at this point if my starting position is off? Cam pulley dowels are at 12pm and timing on them lined up, balance shafts have been deleted so I can get the oil pump sprocket to also line up.

Appreciate any insight. Head is fully assembled, cam pulleys and crank sprocket are just hand tightened at the point

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[99dsmer4g63]

Yes, just rotate the bottom end to where it needs to be. Spinning the crank a quarter turn is not going to hurt your valves by any means.

Seems like you may just be nervous and now slightly overthinking on yourself.

Also here’s this, I used this the first time and still glance at it for torque specs when doing a timing job. Hopefully you have invested in the 3 piece tool kit as it makes the job easier to apply proper tension.

https://pdfslide.net/documents/2g-timing-belt-vfaq.html?page=1

Your motor looks really nice too . I realize your not done yet but some things I noticed; one you should put a bolt in the front case where the balance shaft tensioner used to be. Also your pressure sensor on the evo 3 housing should be in the one on the bottom in the rear.

On my evo 3 housing I drilled and tapped the one port that was blocked off so I could run both my oil sensors and feed my turbo from there.

Also not sure if you know or not but one of them 3 bolts that hold the motor mount on above the tensioner pulley intersect with a oil galley. IIRC it’s the one behind the tensioner pulley. If you already know great ignore this. If not you may wanna pull tensioner off quick and that bolt and dab a small bit of rtv on the threads and re install.

Something else; not sure the brand of your cam gears but I see that you can un bolt the inner and outer gear and switch the orientation for the camshaft dowels. I have BC cam gears and they came set up for an evo 8/9. I had to separate the two pieces and rotate them and bolt them back together. This was in the cam gear package and instructions and showed me how to tell the difference on the setup and which one I needed for my 2g. Just something to check if you haven’t already.

Sorry not trying to make you take steps backwards but much easier to do now and have piece of mind that you will have done it right the first time.

-Daniel

 

[Bedicine]

Yes, just rotate the bottom end to where it needs to be. Spinning the crank a quarter turn is not going to hurt your valves by any means.

Seems like you may just be nervous and now slightly overthinking on yourself.

Also here’s this, I used this the first time and still glance at it for torque specs when doing a timing job. Hopefully you have invested in the 3 piece tool kit as it makes the job easier to apply proper tension.

https://pdfslide.net/documents/2g-timing-belt-vfaq.html?page=1

Your motor looks really nice too . I realize your not done yet but some things I noticed; one you should put a bolt in the front case where the balance shaft tensioner used to be. Also your pressure sensor on the evo 3 housing should be in the one on the bottom in the rear.

On my evo 3 housing I drilled and tapped the one port that was blocked off so I could run both my oil sensors and feed my turbo from there.

Also not sure if you know or not but one of them 3 bolts that hold the motor mount on above the tensioner pulley intersect with a oil galley. IIRC it’s the one behind the tensioner pulley. If you already know great ignore this. If not you may wanna pull tensioner off quick and that bolt and dab a small bit of rtv on the threads and re install.

Something else; not sure the brand of your cam gears but I see that you can un bolt the inner and outer gear and switch the orientation for the camshaft dowels. I have BC cam gears and they came set up for an evo 8/9. I had to separate the two pieces and rotate them and bolt them back together. This was in the cam gear package and instructions and showed me how to tell the difference on the setup and which one I needed for my 2g. Just something to check if you haven’t already.

Sorry not trying to make you take steps backwards but much easier to do now and have piece of mind that you will have done it right the first time.

-Daniel

Thank you, I’ll throw some rtv on the one bolt behind the tensioner. I do have a boot for the balance shaft pulley that came off. I’ll throw some rtv on that when I instal it. I followed the attached picture for the pressure gauge, is that location not correct? Mine matches the photo, can get a different angle later

Can I rotate the crank with the belt off? Just was nervous not to bend valves. Looks like I need to rotate it a quarter then left, heard people also say to only go clockwise.

Thank you

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[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Loosen up all the cam caps, pull the camshafts up and you will KNOW that all of the valves are closed. Rotate to TDC then put the camshafts back in and tighten their caps back down. That will give you peace of mind if you are worried.

 

[99dsmer4g63]

Rotating the crank with the belt off is fine. I say you can rotate either way with the belt off because your not creating slack in the belt by going the wrong way.

You can loosen the cam caps if you want as Marty stated. As long as your cams are at TDC rotating the crank to the left that small amount will be fine.

As far as the evo 3 housing. Go to post #29 on the following thread.

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/7-bolt-evo-iii-oil-filter-housing-on-a-2g.287955/page-2

It is what I’ve done to mine own as well. I use the other unfiltered 3/8 hole for a mechanical oil pressure gauge.

For the oil galley bolt hole just look in the back right corner of the bolt hole. You will just barley see a hole through it. I learned the hard way on mine after the motor was in. Some use rtv on the shoulder bolts that hold the timing tensioner through the case front as well.

-Daniel

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I see something else that "could" give you a problem. You have brass crush washers on the oil cooler fittings. If they seep or leak, use THESE. They are the factory seals and have a rubber insert. I run them on my OFH as opposed to brass. If the fittings were steel, I could tighten them up so brass would seal but my fittings are aluminum and I don't trust getting them tight enough to "crush" and seal. The OEM washers don't require you to put the muscle to them to get them to seal. They were made for a banjo fitting which is why there are 4 in a set. You only need 2. If I had 2 EXTRA'S, I would just mail them to you.
To be clear on the motor, if the camshafts are in, SOME valves are open and you do run a risk of bending valves. You choose how you would like to attack it.

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[pauleyman]

Rotating the crank with the belt off is fine. I say you can rotate either way with the belt off because your not creating slack in the belt by going the wrong way.

No. No.no.

This is true only under the following conditions.

The pistons are siamesed. When 1 and 4 are TDC, 3 and 4 are BDC. Depending on where crank is will determine which way you can turn it to get number 1 to TDC. Basic rule of thumb is you don't want to rotate crank more than 180 degrees. If you do you for sure make 2 and 3 go past TDC where they could contact valves. For I stance if crank if 30 or 40 degrees past TDC. Turn it backwards(CCW) to TDC NOT all the way around to TDC. If you go CW 330 degrees then 2 and 3 pass TDC. Does this make sense?

 

[97egl]

Yes, just rotate the bottom end to where it needs to be. Spinning the crank a quarter turn is not going to hurt your valves by any means.

Seems like you may just be nervous and now slightly overthinking on yourself.

Just for any future persons reading this thread this statement is ONLY true if the cams are in the 12' o'clock position and you are rotating the engine 90 degrees to bring 1 & 4 to TDC

Tons of damage can occur from rotating these engines a 1/4 turn

 

[Bedicine]

Loosen up all the cam caps, pull the camshafts up and you will KNOW that all of the valves are closed. Rotate to TDC then put the camshafts back in and tighten their caps back down. That will give you peace of mind if you are worried.

Will do that today, when I do I can rotate the crank counterclockwise back to the 9pm position (no belt or anything on it)?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Yes sir. Without the belt, you can turn the crank either way. I would turn it clockwise and see how the pistons feel going up and down, just curiosity, since you didn't assemble it.
I was worried that some valves may be open with the camshafts bolted in. It doesn't take 5-10 mins to loosen their caps and pop them up so you KNOW you won't touch a valve as these are interference engines.

 

[Bedicine]

Yes sir. Without the belt, you can turn the crank either way. I would turn it clockwise and see how the pistons feel going up and down, just curiosity, since you didn't assemble it.
I was worried that some valves may be open with the camshafts bolted in. It doesn't take 5-10 mins to loosen their caps and pop them up so you KNOW you won't touch a valve as these are interference engines.

Agreed

For me to take the cam caps off is 10 minutes. Unfortunate to go back but would rather no forsure I’m not bending a valve when I have to rotate the engine 270 degrees. Learned something assembling this motor

 

[99dsmer4g63]

You can loosen the cam caps if you want as Marty stated. As long as your cams are at TDC rotating the crank to the left that small amount will be fine.

I did state that the cams must be at TDC. The OP also said in the very first post that his cam dowels are at 12 o’clock. Which is TDC.

I didn’t say rotate the motor over 180 degrees or even close to that. A small turn with the crank key way at 12 turning back to 9 will not hurt the valvetrain.

-Daniel

 

[Bedicine]

I did state that the cams must be at TDC. The OP also said in the very first post that his cam dowels are at 12 o’clock. Which is TDC.

I didn’t say rotate the motor over 180 degrees or even close to that. A small turn with the crank key way at 12 turning back to 9 will not hurt the valvetrain.

-Daniel

If I can rotate 90 degrees counterclockwise without removing the cam caps that is a lot easier but can pull cam caps if needed

 

[pauleyman]

I did state that the cams must be at TDC. The OP also said in the very first post that his cam dowels are at 12 o’clock. Which is TDC.

I didn’t say rotate the motor over 180 degrees or even close to that. A small turn with the crank key way at 12 turning back to 9 will not hurt the valvetrain.

-Daniel

My point is anybody doing this needs to know the position of cylinders 2 and 3. 1 and 4 are fine if cams are 12 oclock. Which way you turn and how much becomes important because 2 and 3 can and will bend valves even if cams are at 12 o'clock. Only 1 and 4 are safe.

 

[Bedicine]

For any future readers, is the best way to avoid any of that is just to undo the cam caps and the position will not matter if there is a fear of bending valves?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Yes. Paul puts it into perspective that 2 of the 4 pistons are 180* away from the other 2. If the cams are in, valves ARE open somewhere, and in that instance, when you turn the motor over without a belt or out of time, at least one piston WILL come into contact with a set of open valves. IF that happens, do you want to pull the head and fix the problem or take a few extra minutes to make sure it DOESN'T happen. When I build these motors, I bolt the cams down last, after all other marks are at TDC.
I rolled a cam over once in a 4g motor, not the crank. I heard a light "ting", and sure as hell, an exhaust valve had hit an open intake valve and that little touch was all it took to bend a couple valves. I hate for anyone else to have to pull one back apart when such a small thing can prevent any such damage. If a PISTON touches an open valve, you will have some of these....
Marty

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[99dsmer4g63]

I will agree with Marty that unbolting your cams will be the safest thing to do IF you are in doubt. I do stand by what I said though as if you do what I said and the conditions are the same as yours absolutely no valve damage will occur.

-Daniel

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Nice catch @99dsmer4g63 on the balance shaft OPEN HOLE. As Dan says, put a bolt in there and silicone it. It will leak all over the timing components if you don't plug it.

 

[99dsmer4g63]

To the OP, did you confirm that your cam gears are set properly for your specific application? I see you have 2 camshaft dowel holes.

Mine are the same way and are for evo 8/9 and 2g. One hole is slightly off center opposed to the other one. On your outer cam gear you can see dots that are pointing at 12 o clock.

These dots usually face each other like in the first link I posted of the vfaq. The exhaust is 3 and the intake is 9.

I’m not saying this is the actual case but if you haven’t confirmed I would be skeptical that you may to need to unbolt the cam gears outer and inner shells and spin them possibly.

-Daniel

 

[Bedicine]

To the OP, did you confirm that your cam gears are set properly for your specific application? I see you have 2 camshaft dowel holes.

Mine are the same way and are for evo 8/9 and 2g. One hole is slightly off center opposed to the other one. On your outer cam gear you can see dots that are pointing at 12 o clock.

These dots usually face each other like in the first link I posted of the vfaq. The exhaust is 3 and the intake is 9.

I’m not saying this is the actual case but if you haven’t confirmed I would be skeptical that you may to need to unbolt the cam gears outer and inner shells and spin them possibly.

-Daniel

Mark is hard to see but the line at the top on the Magnus pulleys is for the timing. Two dowel marks, one for dsm and one for evo. Just undoing the cam caps now

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[Bedicine]

Think I’ve got everything lined up now. There isn’t a mark on the crankshaft sprocket but it can only go one way with the notch.

Is there a gasket that goes on the head by the rear camshaft position sensor where the housing bolts to the head?

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[99dsmer4g63]

Ahh that’s good you have the cam gears figured out. I couldn’t see in the pictures that it clearly states evo and dsm. Mine do not have it labeled just in the paperwork for the gears is how I knew.

TBH I’m not sure if there is an oem gasket that goes there. I have always just used a nice thin bead of rtv and has always worked well. Minus cleaning it off to reinstall when the time would come.

Looks like you have it under control.

-Daniel

 

[pauleyman]

Does anybody else think cams still aren't lined up?

 

[Bedicine]

Does anybody else think cams still aren't lined up?

The marks are lined up and dowels at the top? It’s a pair of Brian crower cams, curious as to what you think looks off on them?

 

[donniekak]

Loosen up all the cam caps, pull the camshafts up and you will KNOW that all of the valves are closed. Rotate to TDC then put the camshafts back in and tighten their caps back down. That will give you peace of mind if you are worried.

This.
After one time of bending valves by torquing down a head with cams in it I started installing cams after the head is on.