E85/16g/Emanage/1000cc injectors running awesome

[Mac3KGT]

I think he is running around 42psi fp. He is running about 22psi right now since the head gasket is blown because of upping the boost. He has all the parts and the new head should be done soon with a set of 272's. After that 26-28psi and lots of timing. Hoping for 400+whp, we will see.

Also, forgot to ask what options you have for the emanage. Harnesses, etc?

 

[deflator]

This thread is music to my ears, this is exactly the setup I am planning on, 1000cc's Link and a 16g equivalent turbo with e85. Thanks for sharing. e85 is widely available here now, god bless illinois cornfields, but I'd really like to get some e98.
By my calculations, you're really losing about 7% fuel economy to price over using premium 93 (due to ethanol having ~30% less energy than gas), but of course you get much higher octane. Compared to $5.50/gal 110 octane, its a bargain and a half.

So I really only need to replace the fuel line from the filter to the rail? I was afraid I'd have to replace all the lines.

 

[JayRolla]

This thread is music to my ears, this is exactly the setup I am planning on, 1000cc's Link and a 16g equivalent turbo with e85. Thanks for sharing. e85 is widely available here now, god bless illinois cornfields, but I'd really like to get some e98.
By my calculations, you're really losing about 7% fuel economy to price over using premium 93 (due to ethanol having ~30% less energy than gas), but of course you get much higher octane. Compared to $5.50/gal 110 octane, its a bargain and a half.

So I really only need to replace the fuel line from the filter to the rail? I was afraid I'd have to replace all the lines.

No he did replace the line from the tank to fuel filter with a hard SS line. He is losing about 15% fuel economy because the fuel is less dense than gasoline so you need more. Only about 30% at WOT.

He has the timing and fuel injector harness, thats It I think on the emanage. Not sure though this is not my car, its my brothers.

 

[Mac3KGT]

No he did replace the line from the tank to fuel filter with a hard SS line. He is losing about 15% fuel economy because the fuel is less dense than gasoline so you need more. Only about 30% at WOT.

He has the timing and fuel injector harness, thats It I think on the emanage. Not sure though this is not my car, its my brothers.

What fuel pump is he running?

 

[deflator]

No he did replace the line from the tank to fuel filter with a hard SS line.

Would you happen to know how much of a PITA that job was? And is regular SS line what he used? I would have thought the rubber on the inside would corrode.

 

[JayRolla]

We had someone run the SS line, and he said it wasnt hard. Its a solid line all the way to the bay and then uses a soft SS line to the rail. He is running a 255 walboro which will be close to being maxed.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Good info on this thread... Damn I wish E85 was in my area, I wonder how long it will be until it does? But as soon as it does I will be getting it.
I am really interested in this, I havent gotten too much research done on it yet, ( mods in profile.)but quick sum up I have a evo3 16g, completely stock engine except arp headstuds, and balance shaft removal, and I run a chipped ecu at the momment with 2g mass and FIC850s with the n/t fpr which gives 47.6psi base fuel pressure ( yes it rises 1:1 with boost.) in which this combo gives me about 920cc worth of injectors tuned in on my eprom chip. and a hp walbro 255lph, all stock fuel lines... to max out the evo3 with this fuel set up and e85 even with cams.
But my car is a daily driver so what im hoping is something like 24-25psi daily with 25-28 degrees timing 12:1 afr on the straight E85 ... This car has proven capable of trapping high 11s at 115mph on race gas with this tune and just to think this would be my daily power with e85 and no getting pissed having to switch back to boring weak pump gas power... This is great..
Im wondering what else I require to make this happen, any weird things have to be done with spark plug gap specs or is it truely neccessary to get bigger braided ss lines on fuel system?
Thanks...

 

[JayRolla]

All my brother did was run a new SS larger gauge line from the tank to the front. Then a aftermarket fuel filter and braided SS line from the filter to the stock fuel rail. To save yourself some money go with BC or DKS cams. They are way cheaper and perform just as well.

Also my mechanic has been playing with e85 for some time now and he said he has made more power at around a 11.1 afr on e85.

 

[JrCRXHF]

Good info on this thread... Damn I wish E85 was in my area, I wonder how long it will be until it does? But as soon as it does I will be getting it.
I am really interested in this, I havent gotten too much research done on it yet, ( mods in profile.)but quick sum up I have a evo3 16g, completely stock engine except arp headstuds, and balance shaft removal, and I run a chipped ecu at the momment with 2g mass and FIC850s with the n/t fpr which gives 47.6psi base fuel pressure ( yes it rises 1:1 with boost.) in which this combo gives me about 890cc worth of injectors tuned in on my eprom chip. and a hp walbro 255lph, all stock fuel lines...( I Plan on dsmlink and fp1/fp2 cam combo within next 6months, and will need a stronger clutch disc as currently my clutch slips on 5500 2step launches w/ a timed nlts into 2nd on anything more than 21psi...)
Im pretty sure I should be able to max out the evo3 with this fuel set up and e85 even with cams.
But my car is a daily driver so what im hoping is something like 23-24psi daily with 25-28 degrees timing 12:1 afr on the straight E85 ... This car has proven capable of trapping high 11s at 115mph on race gas with this tune and just to think this would be my daily power with e85 and no getting pissed having to switch back to boring weak pump gas power... This is great..
Im wondering what else I require to make this happen, any weird things have to be done with spark plug gap specs or is it truely neccessary to get bigger braided ss lines on fuel system?
Thanks...

you guys might want to watch your air fuel ratio cause it changes when you are on e85

"You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging."


I would look at my air fuel ratio again before you have big problems i tune E85 with lamda for that reason.

 

[turboglenn]

you guys might want to watch your air fuel ratio cause it changes when you are on e85

"You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging."


I would look at my air fuel ratio again before you have big problems i tune E85 with lamda for that reason.

What ratio is needed at WOT with e85? My wideband only goes to from 8:1 to 25:1, and i'm thinking about going e85 on 1000cc injectors and just having 2 maps that i can switch when i can't get e85. Right now there's only one place in Omaha that i'm aware of that even sells it for now. I'm thinking meth/alky injection might be less of a headache for me right now since i have very limited access to teh e85

 

[wishihadatalon]

you guys might want to watch your air fuel ratio cause it changes when you are on e85

"You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging."


I would look at my air fuel ratio again before you have big problems i tune E85 with lamda for that reason.

You are right, but any wide band will still display it as a "normal" afr mixture value. So the display will still show 14.7 at stoich even though it is most likely 9.76.

 

[wishihadatalon]

What ratio is needed at WOT with e85? My wideband only goes to from 8:1 to 25:1, and i'm thinking about going e85 on 1000cc injectors and just having 2 maps that i can switch when i can't get e85. Right now there's only one place in Omaha that i'm aware of that even sells it for now. I'm thinking meth/alky injection might be less of a headache for me right now since i have very limited access to teh e85

Just remember that mixing will give different results each time. There is supposed to be a way with megasquirt to use GM's e85 sensor, which alters your maps from 100% e85 to 100% gasoline of your choice. Based on your mixture, it auto adjusts your maps . I would like to play with it, but I don't know of anyone in my area running e85 just yet, other than the v8 crowd.

 

[JayRolla]

you guys might want to watch your air fuel ratio cause it changes when you are on e85

"You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging."


I would look at my air fuel ratio again before you have big problems i tune E85 with lamda for that reason.

Thats why you must have a wbo2 sensor installed at all times when running e85. Sometimes when the season changes the ethonal/gas mix will change to 75% not 85% like normal so yes you need to watch for that.

Also even if you do run a little lean on e85 the detonation characteristics are so good you wont even knock unless you run dangerously lean. If you run about 30% more fuel at wot than your gas tune that will give you a real good base afr.

My mechanic has been running e85 for more than a year now and has time to play with all types of afr's. He said the safest afr to make the best power is around a 11.1 afr from his experience.

 

[Black_Bullet]

So your saying to tune for 11.1 to make more power but isnt 11.1 real lean on e85, or just lean in lambda readings and not what your actual wideband would say?
Also dks cams may be ok but id prefer to stick with Fp, the bc would be a thought.
And is there any were that shows a possible arrival time of e85 amongst the states. I wonder how soon it will come to my area if at all, we dont do emissions testing or smog testing or any testing for that matter down here so they might not place much emphasis on the use of e85 in Fl... Everyone pretty much runs without cats here, which since my car has a 3in dump i think the clean burn of the e85 a good thing since i pollute the air bad enough as it is.

 

[JayRolla]

So your saying to tune for 11.1 to make more power but isnt 11.1 real lean on e85, or just lean in lambda readings and not what your actual wideband would say?
Also dks cams may be ok but id prefer to stick with Fp, the bc would be a thought.
And is there any were that shows a possible arrival time of e85 amongst the states. I wonder how soon it will come to my area if at all, we dont do emissions testing or smog testing or any testing for that matter down here so they might not place much emphasis on the use of e85 in Fl... Everyone pretty much runs without cats here, which since my car has a 3in dump i think the clean burn of the e85 a good thing since i pollute the air bad enough as it is.

I actually could not answer that. This is what my mechanic has told me is a good afr to make good power, but still staying safe. BC cams will save you a lot of money. I wont buy FP cams because my mechanic ordered a set and they ground the intake and exhaust cams backwards and ruined one of his motors.

Talked to my brother and he just finished the head. He tuned to a 11.1 afr and at high rpms about 10.8. They set boost to about 26psi but drops to 21psi by redline. He hopes he can tighten the custom actuator he has to hold boost better. By redline he said the motor is seeing about 30* of timing.

He said with the 272's he just installed that there is incredibly a lot more top end and feels awesome. I cant wait to see some dyno slips on this 16g. He said just getting on the boost around a slight curve in second caused all 4 tires to let loose. My mechanic was so surprised how fast first gear was because he said he is used to running his t67 and that the 16g would kill his car through first and that would be about it.

Anyways after all this a few days later he lost spark to all cylinders. He is going to install a different ECU and hope it fixes the issue since all other components check out so far.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I actually could not answer that. This is what my mechanic has told me is a good afr to make good power, but still staying safe. BC cams will save you a lot of money. I wont buy FP cams because my mechanic ordered a set and they ground the intake and exhaust cams backwards and ruined one of his motors.

Talked to my brother and he just finished the head. He tuned to a 11.1 afr and at high rpms about 10.8. They set boost to about 26psi but drops to 21psi by redline. He hopes he can tighten the custom actuator he has to hold boost better. By redline he said the motor is seeing about 30* of timing.

He said with the 272's he just installed that there is incredibly a lot more top end and feels awesome. I cant wait to see some dyno times on this 16g. He said just getting on the boost around a slight curve in second caused all 4 tires to let loose. My mechanic was so surprised how fast first was because he said he is used to running his t67 and that the 16g would kill his car.

Anyways after all this a few days later he lost spark to all cylinders. He is going to install a different ECU and hope it fixes the issue since all other components check out so far.

Sounds good. His torque is probably spiking over 350lbs/ft with a tune like that on the e3...

 

[silvreclips]

E-85 seems to be working out great for you guys. I may have to consider this in the future. My only question is this. You say tune for 11.1 in boost. What when your not boosting, is the ECU still going to try and put your a/f at 14.7? And would this be a problem.

 

[JayRolla]

At cruising you still want to tune too 14.7 for best fuel economy. Which is a big thing when runnig e85 since you loose a little fuel mileage.

 

[silvreclips]

At cruising you still want to tune too 14.7 for best fuel economy. Which is a big thing when runnig e85 since you loose a little fuel mileage.

That would be super lean with E-85 though. I guess it would be fine bc of the high octain. So basically the only difference is running a little bit richer under boost. As long as you have the supporting components its a direct swap.

 

[JayRolla]

Yes its lean, but too get to that afr we had to add a lot of fuel. Plus you are not under boost, so detonation should not be a problem. 3 guys at the shop are running e85 and have for a long time so they know what they are doing. One has a 2.3, one a 2.4 and the other a 2.0. All have t67 to4e turbos making 600+whp.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Yes its lean, but too get to that afr we had to add a lot of fuel. Plus you are not under boost, so detonation should not be a problem. 3 guys at the shop are running e85 and have for a long time so they know what they are doing. One has a 2.3, one a 2.4 and the other a 2.0. All have t67 to4e turbos making 600+whp.

One thing that is important is that you are likely talking about wbo2 gauge display readings and not the actual afr of the mixture. Everyone is working on different pages here. Your mechanic is likely doing the same thing and telling you what he tuned for on his wbo2.

 

[JayRolla]

One thing that is important is that you are likely talking about wbo2 gauge display readings and not the actual afr of the mixture. Everyone is working on different pages here. Your mechanic is likely doing the same thing and telling you what he tuned for on his wbo2.

Yea thats what I'm saying. I just know what afr he said to tune too on the guage readout. I really dont know the math, I wonder if someone more experienced can jump in and answer that question for us.

 

[JrCRXHF]

All i can tell you is that when i tune my honda on e-85 i tune to 7.7 air fuel or about .8 lambda but this is a different car it is not a DSM it is a B16 with only 10psi of boost.

All i can tell you is that i tuned in Lambda to try and not have the air fuel ratio issue



Converting to E85 (ethanol fuel) - Turbobricks Forums



Technical facts about the mentioned fuels:

E85 requires 39% more fuel to reach stoich even if that is not what you may come up with when doing calculations based on the table below. This is because the injector flow is slightly different when using E85 among many other things I can´t really think of at this time (will be added at a later time).

Fuel ........................ AFRst ........ FARst ....... Equivalence Ratio ... Lambda
Gas stoich ................ 14.7 .......... 0.068 ................ 1 ................... 1
Gas max power rich .... 12.5 .......... 0.08 ................. 1.176 .............. 0.8503
Gas max power lean .... 13.23 ........ 0.0755 .............. 1.111 ............. 0.900
E85 stoich .................. 9.765 ....... 0.10235 ............ 1 ................... 1
E85 max power rich ...... 6.975 ....... 0.1434 .............. 1.40 ............... 0.7143
E85 max power lean ..... 8.4687 ...... 0.118 ............... 1.153 .............. 0.8673
E100 stoich ................ 9.0078 ...... 0.111 ............... 1 .................... 1
E100 max power rich .... 6.429 ........ 0.155 .............. 1.4 .................. 0.714
E100 max power lean .... 7.8 .... ...... 0.128 .............. 1.15 ................ 0.870

The term AFRst refers to the Air Fuel Ratio under stoichiometric, or ideal air fuel ratio mixture conditions. FARst refers to the Fuel Air Ratio under stoichiometric conditions, and is simply the reciprocal of AFRst.

Equivalence Ratio is the ratio of actual Fuel Air Ratio to Stoichiometric Fuel Air Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express richer mixtures. Lambda is the ratio of actual Air Fuel Ratio to Stoichiometric Air Fuel Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express leanness conditions (i.e., less fuel, less rich) mixtures of fuel and air.

When driving purely on E85 you can blend it with up to 25% gasoline in case you want to raise the AFR number used to produce max. power. In that case you can raise the boost even further since the volume of fuel needed to reach the desired lambda is decreased.


Performance application and fuel needed:

Performance application:
Let´s pretend for a while that the ECU´s in our cars are pretty good at their jobs. On gasoline it will try to keep an AFR of 14.7 (lambda=1) all the time at idle, cruise and light load. It will also try to keep a good AFR at WOT/boost of 13.2-12.5, sometimes even lower than that, probably closer to 11.x.

Why? Because the fuel has a cooling effect on the intake charge and the space in which the combustion occurs.

As you can see from the table shown above this section, the ideal target AFR´s under boost for both gasoline and E85 are listed. For gasoline it´s 13.23-12.5, and for E85 it´s 8.47-6.975. However, with E85 you will not need to richen the mixture under WOT/boost as far as 6.975 or beyond. It does not need to be proportionally richer when compared to gasoline.

Why? Again, Because the fuel has a cooling effect on the intake charge and the space in which the combustion occurs. And at such a low AFR as 9.765 (lambda=1 on E85) or lower the fuel cools pretty good, don´t you think so?

Many people with some experience in mapping an ECU for use with E85 says that as high AFR as 8.5 or lambda=0.80-0.85 works well. No need to go to the extreme end of the useable scale to get safe power. It only uses a lot of fuel without giving any benefits.

Since you don´t have to richen the mixture as many percent (proportionally) as you have to on gasoline, you can make more power without having to use as much fuel. Instead you can keep the AFR´s leaner across the board and by doing so you can make room for higher boost without maxing out the injectors.

Fuel needed:
As you will see, both in my article as well as other places on the internet, different fuel requirements are listed. What numbers will you see and why?

1. A car converted, but not specifically mapped for E85 will consume ~30% more fuel.

2. A car running E85 will require ~42% more fuel.

3. According to your own calculations (if you have bothered to look in to it), it will not quite add up. Most people scratch their head.

Let me show you a table again:

Mode ........... Gas .... E85 ...... extra % (mass) ... extra % (flow)
Stoich .......... 14.7 .... 9.765 ........ +50.5% ................ +42%
Lean power ... 13.2 .... 8.47 .......... +55.8% ................ +47%
Rich power .... 12.5 .... 6.975 ........ +79.2% ................ +69%

E85 has a higher density than gasoline. The change in AFR from 14.7 (lambda=1 for gasoline) to 9.765 (lambda=1 for E85) is 50.5%. But the resulting flow needed is only 42% greater.

Explanations to this: E85 will need a fuel flow that is 42% greater than the flow needed for gasoline. However, it will not use 42% more fuel since it will actually be more efficient. Generally, the engine will consume ~30% more fuel.

If I am using 46.7lb/hr injectors (45% larger than stock) which are easy to get hold of, my AFR´s should theoretically look like this:

*At idle, cruise and low load (closed loop) the AFR will be 9.56, the O2-sensor sees this and will correct it to 9.765. A very small correction, and it lies well within the adaptation limits. Not even noticeable as more than normal adaptation by the ECU.

*When at WOT/boost (open loop) the AFR will be between 8.58-8.13. This looks a little lean according to the AFR table, doesn´t it? It isn´t even in the "rich" area according to the table. No worries, the cooling properties of E85 are pretty good. But in reality I will actually get an AFR of around 8-7.5 since my ECU wants to run a slightly richer mixture than 12.5 on gasoline. It obviously does not know that it is running E85...

EDIT:// I am now running 75lb/hr injectors and 3" AMM. This is to meet my performance goals of 300HP+.

 

[greentrbo_95gst]

Yes its lean, but too get to that afr we had to add a lot of fuel. Plus you are not under boost, so detonation should not be a problem. 3 guys at the shop are running e85 and have for a long time so they know what they are doing. One has a 2.3, one a 2.4 and the other a 2.0. All have t67 to4e turbos making 600+whp.

What is their fuel setup like? This is a very interesting idea. I haven't seen any e85 in the San Francisco area, but definitely willing to look into it. Our car runs ERC 120 octane at $12/gallon. 45 psi, 1600cc, dual 255hp. How do you go about upgrading the injectors for this setup? Secondary injectors?

 

[Ajax]

MS1 cannot use the FCS(Fuel composition sensor) only the new MS2 can.