Dual intank fuel pumps

[BluemeanieTSi]

i started trying to figure out how to put dual pumps in the stock housing but that wasn't happening without major hacking. since it was my only housing i had i started looking for alternatives so i decided to build my own.

the housing cost me about 10 bux and 2 days to make, i still need to wire it.

here's what i started with but this ended up not working well due to return line placement.

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the housing isn't all that thick it was the thickest metal i could find at the local tractor supply company. i just cut a circle to match the upper piece and welded a support rod to it, then welded the inner ring piece for the gasket, test fit to make sure it sealed ok then started on the feed lines. they are 3/8th brake line i bought 3/8th brake unions and ordered 3/8th flare to 6 an fittings from summit. the housing cost me around 10 bux and the fittings cost around 15 total for that part.

(ignore the twisted screens the pumps weren't secured yet for this pic)

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after about a days work (i'm not much for planning things out) i realized i had no room for wiring or a return line. soooooo i started over

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the two 45 degree 6an hose ends clear the back seat with no modification following the factory feed lines. the "y" block is a BG (barry grant) fuel block i got from jegs for around 30 bux and it is 3/8th NPT, it comes with a pressure tap source that needs to be plugged (i see no need to put a gauge back there) the lines are 6 an then 3/8 to 6an 45 degree fittings for inlefts with a 3/8th to 8 an and 8 an line from then on.

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i kept the float for street car use, and i kept the gauge light crap just so i didnt' have to cut it apart. the return line is 3/8th and the vent is 1/4 brake line, i'll be using the factory feed hard line as a larger return line so i dont' have to run another line under tha car i'll use the existing one which i think is 5/16ths

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everything is soldered with plumbing solder and leak tested. here's a good shot of the flare to an fittings from summit.

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here's what i have so far, all the lines (not cut to length) and the filter i will be using (caution this filter is over a foot long) everything is 8an from the y block up including the rail. i will be using a magnafuel fuel pressure regulator as i was not impressed with the aeromotive one i had been using in the past.

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questions, comments, personal experiences......for reference i'm planning on an fp3065 for the setup at the moment.

 

[TimG]

Not to mention the baffles in the stock tank make dual pumps that much more of a pain. There is only a few ways they can go in and it accomplishes almost nothing for a sub-500HP car (which I'm sure all of us are driving).

 

[larsrya8]

There has to be a reason why the Bosch 044 is immediately recommended when someone is striving to go past ~500HP. Proven to perform.

 

[Rick@AP]

WHY THE HELL IS EVERYONE AGAINST THIS IDEA?!?!?!??!?!??!

I got a good idea from my friends janky ass car the other day. He ziptied his fuel pump to his assembly, and I realized, if you take two fuel pump assemblies, cut the bottom part off, weld them together so they have lower supports, and then just ziptie the pumps to the assembly really well and drill a second port for the second pump. The reason why the zip tie works is because he had a layer of foam around his fuel pump, which allowed the zip ties to hold the pump tight without slipping up or down. I'll probably end up simply doing that. Two supra pumps with 6 an- fuel lines joined to a 8 an- main fuel line with a 6 an- return would be perfect for me (and almost anyone else too probably)

Bro, I am all for it. I just need to firgure out in my mind how to make the entire assembly work.

Also, realize that the Supra pumps like a min of 12 volts so your going to need to feed each pump its on seperate voltage. You won't be able to split the voltage from one pump to the other.

 

[Rick@AP]

I don't get it. If you need a bigger pump, why not just install a bigger pump? Is there something I'm missing here?

For me it's not that simple. Installing a Bosch 044 pump in place of the Supra pump would let me pick up maybe another 50-75 whp from all that I have read. I need head room for another 150-200 whp. The only way to achive this is either going to be an a1000 and somehow figure out how to sump a plastic tank (or otherwise) or dual Supra pumps. I would even entertain the idea of another inline pump if there was data showing that adding a Bosch 044 inline with a Supra would give me the added fueling headroom that I need.

Not to mention the baffles in the stock tank make dual pumps that much more of a pain. There is only a few ways they can go in and it accomplishes almost nothing for a sub-500HP car (which I'm sure all of us are driving).

This is not dreaming by any means. I maxed out my daily driver with a Supra pump on the dyno Saturday at 536 whp. If I had this problem with a 1g then I would simply sump the metal tank like I did with my 1g race car and the problem would be solved. However, since the 2g has a plastic tank and I don't really want to hear the whine of an external pump or hope and pray that it doesn't go out on me while I'm out picking up groceries, options become limited.

On another note, I've been investigating using an methanol injection system as well. Speaking to others that have this system in place, I may be able to achive the numbers that I want by adding a system pumping pure methanol with a little lube. The installation of a system such as this may be an easier solution than two pumps or an external pump.

 

[Hal]

A supra pump can pass a LOT of fuel when it doesn't have to push against any line pressure.

I've used them to supply A1000's as well as my 17140.

Hal

 

[Rick@AP]

A supra pump can pass a LOT of fuel when it doesn't have to push against any line pressure.

I've used them to supply A1000's as well as my 17140.

Hal

So if I went with an Aeromotive Eliminator external with a Supra internal pump, how much of the full capacity of the external pump would I be able to achieve?

 

[Rick@AP]

One more thing, would it be possible to set the Supra pump up in series with the Aeromotive Eliminator and have the external pump set to come on at a certain boost level? I guess what I am asking is, is it possible to have fuel pushed through the unit without it being energized? One of the problems I had before with an external is that running it all the time killed the pump. If I can setup the stock pump to run all the time and have the larger pump only come in at a set boost level this could save the external pump from wear failures.

 

[wishihadatalon]

One more thing, would it be possible to set the Supra pump up in series with the Aeromotive Eliminator and have the external pump set to come on at a certain boost level? I guess what I am asking is, is it possible to have fuel pushed through the unit without it being energized? One of the problems I had before with an external is that running it all the time killed the pump. If I can setup the stock pump to run all the time and have the larger pump only come in at a set boost level this could save the external pump from wear failures.

What tuning software are you running? Most systems will give you outputs with different options. Also you could use a pressure switch or something along those lines.

 

[Rick@AP]

What tuning software are you running? Most systems will give you outputs with different options. Also you could use a pressure switch or something along those lines.

The AEM EMS that I use has outputs that can be used for this however I'm wondering if the intank pump can handle the extra stress that would be caused by pushing fuel through the external pump.

 

[tstkl]

Bro, I am all for it. I just need to firgure out in my mind how to make the entire assembly work.

Also, realize that the Supra pumps like a min of 12 volts so your going to need to feed each pump its on seperate voltage. You won't be able to split the voltage from one pump to the other.

yeah, theres a great thread on a dual pump set up on dsmtalk. Its in the advanced tech forum, you know, the one they closed... who knows why....

you just do the same thing as rewiring one fuel pump, except 1 fuse, 1 relay, and 1 supply/ground wire for each pump.

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127979

 

[GVR4592]

Rick, check out the flow charts for the A1000 and the Bosch 044. There is really not much difference between the two. The A1000 has a high rating, but it doesn't do well at higher presssures. Failures are also pretty common, according to a few very large threads on http://www.corral.net/forums/ and www.ls1tech.com.

My brother has the A1000 in his Talon, but he's only put a few miles on it so we have no idea what's going to happen.

 

[Rick@AP]

yeah, theres a great thread on a dual pump set up on dsmtalk. Its in the advanced tech forum, you know, the one they closed... who knows why....

you just do the same thing as rewiring one fuel pump, except 1 fuse, 1 relay, and 1 supply/ground wire for each pump.

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127979

I knew this thread existed but I couldn't find it for the life of me after searching everywhere. Thanks!

 

[Rick@AP]

Rick, check out the flow charts for the A1000 and the Bosch 044. There is really not much difference between the two. The A1000 has a high rating, but it doesn't do well at higher presssures. Failures are also pretty common, according to a few very large threads on http://www.corral.net/forums/ and www.ls1tech.com.

My brother has the A1000 in his Talon, but he's only put a few miles on it so we have no idea what's going to happen.

Your correct from the little bit of info I was able to find.

It looks like the A1000 is out. I am currently looking at a Weldon 1600a (or the overkill D2025a) or the Magnaflow MP-4303 which have both recieved great reviews for street use.

One thing that I noticed that popped up as a frequent subject of disscusion is the subject of vapor lock caused by high fuel recirculation. I've never heard of this problem before with DSM's and I'm hoping it will not be a problem after installation. Am I being too optimistic?

 

[Rick@AP]

Can anyone tell me any reason why this would not work?

The idea is to have the Supra intank pump function at idle, low boost and cruise situations while priming the external pump at startup. At mid/high boost the standalone would signal the external pump to activate.

 

[poorboyj]

Most of you guys seem to be perfect candidates for adding a Bosch 044 external, and upgrading the feed lines as well. The Bosch is louder than a Walbro, but no where near an Aeromotive, and the Weldons are even worse (and expensive too). The Bosch is OEM quality and designed for continuous use unlike some. Keep what ever intank pump you have, and use it to feed the externally mounted Bosch 044 fuel pump.

 

[sunflashx]

Most of you guys seem to be perfect candidates for adding a Bosch 044 external, and upgrading the feed lines as well. The Bosch is louder than a Walbro, but no where near an Aeromotive, and the Weldons are even worse (and expensive too). The Bosch is OEM quality and designed for continuous use unlike some. Keep what ever intank pump you have, and use it to feed the externally mounted Bosch 044 fuel pump.

Hey, I know a guy that sells a real nice kit for accomplishing just that.

 

[poorboyj]

Brian, do you have any pictures of your installation of this kit?

 

[sunflashx]

Brian, do you have any pictures of your installation of this kit?

It's not installed yet. My car hasn't ran in a year due to the new manifold fiaco I've been having, so changing out the fuel system is last on the list. I will definately take some when it's done though.

 

[diambo4life]

It's such a PITA getting 2 intank Walbros through that hole into the fuel tank in a 1G. Trust me. It's even harder doing it in a 2G from what I have read but I know someone who fitted 2 Bosch 044's in there (2G). Quite a few people do run them though successfully. I know Jake Montogomery (aka evil-eagle) runs this twin setup unless he recently changed it. PM him. Personally, I run a 255 intank and a 255 inline with a -8AN line from tank to rail. Works great and it's actually not "loud" as people think. I have no panelling, carpeting, backseat behind the driver's seat and it's just slightly audible. I'm sure with carpeting and a backseat in place I wouldn't even hear it. I dont really have pictures.

 

[ICE_T]

Like Rick@Ap said, he make over 530whp on a stock supra TT pump. So I think it's enough tfor your setup !!

 

[Slippi84]

It's such a PITA getting 2 intank Walbros through that hole into the fuel tank in a 1G. Trust me. It's even harder doing it in a 2G from what I have read but I know someone who fitted 2 Bosch 044's in there (2G). Quite a few people do run them though successfully. I know Jake Montogomery (aka evil-eagle) runs this twin setup unless he recently changed it. PM him. Personally, I run a 255 intank and a 255 inline with a -8AN line from tank to rail. Works great and it's actually not "loud" as people think. I have no panelling, carpeting, backseat behind the driver's seat and it's just slightly audible. I'm sure with carpeting and a backseat in place I wouldn't even hear it. I dont really have pictures.

Do you suffer from overunning your return line ever like they mentioned before cause I"m not really into doing PITA customizing when I could just get a inline.

 

[Rick@AP]

Ok, I finally found someone local that has the Bosch 044's in stock so that's the way that I'm going. Now all that's left is figuring out the installation method I want to use will work.

 

[diambo4life]

Do you suffer from overunning your return line ever like they mentioned before cause I"m not really into doing PITA customizing when I could just get a inline.

No...no issues at all & I run the stock fuel return. However, if any of the pumps fail, I will replace them with Bosch 044 units. Two of those inline with -8AN line = PLENTY of fuel.


FWIW...IIRC Ryan Woon (1400whp+ 6 speed MKIV Supra) ran 3 walbro intank pumps so I wouldn't just laugh them off.

However, quality wise and due to the capability of handling higher fuel pressure better, I would go with the Bosch units.

Rick, are you doing 1 or 2 pumps? Inline or parallel? Andre at PINA Motorsports fabs the 1g sending unit really nicely to drop in a bosch pump. There are some pix on their site.

 

[Rick@AP]

The plan right now, and it changes hourly, is to run one intank Supra pump connected to two Bosch 044 inline pumps. The Supra pump and one of the Bosch pumps will run continuosly while the second will be triggered by the standalone to come on at a predetermined boost level. As far as the lines go, I'm going to try to fab up a -10 line from the Supra pump, Y off with -8 lines to the Bosch pumps with one of them recieving a check valve, and then Y back together to a -8 line that will feed the fuel rail and then a -8 return line. The -10 line may turn into a -8 but we will see what fits.

With this setup I should have enough fuel, don't you think?

 

[GVR4592]

Rick it seems that you've been doing a fair amount of research on this. If you're feeling up to doing a little more reading check out the fuel pumps made by Product Engineering.

http://productengr.com/

They're very popular among the forced induction V8 guys. It flows a little less than the Weldon 2025 but it's a hell of a lot quieter. You also don't have to deal with the issues of plumbing in two pumps. The best part is the 2 year warranty.