Dry sump oiling system

[AWDlaserRS]

Since so many people keep saying that a PS pump wont work for this application and no one has actually tried it yet, I think I am going to put it to the test since I seriously want to use a dry sump system on my new 6 bolt. What Im going to do is hook up an electric drill to it to spin the pump and just let it pump oil in and out of a bucket for like a day straight. The things I will be observing are how efficiently the pump is moving the oil, airation of the oil, and any leaks or weak spots in the pump. I will be doing this today or tomorow. Any suggestions on what other things I should keep an eye out for?

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by i550
An option for you guys is to contact Brent Rau at OSOFAST Racing. He's was / is running the dry sump system on a 4g63 so I'm sure he could give some good info if you catch him at the right time.
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Sounds like this is the company that helped him with his system. Peterson Fluid Scroll down to the bottom of the page.
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i550 thanks for the url and constructive input. It will help those who need pictures and info. I didn't spend more than a couple of min browsing their site and others given before but noticed their filtration was not equal to that of a conventional well recognized brand spin on filter maker. This brings up an important concern which is how much back pressure can be tolerated so as to not rob hp gains. By running multiple filters in parallel this back pressure can in theory be reduced 1/2 if it becomes an issue. Particle size will be equal to that which the automotive industry has designed to give prolonged engine life and not that of an engine which will be torn down after every race and the oil discarded.

The worst enemy of any engine oiling system besides particulate matter is that of acid etch from not changing the oil frequent enough. Just because the oil looks clean doesn't mean it is. A simple test I've developed is to take an oil sample, add equal part of water and shake vigorously. Decant the water and test with litmus paper for acid content. This is actually more useful with diesels that don't have an engine hour meter and a log of when the oil
was last changed but if you are concerned it does establish just how your car engine is running from a preventative maintenance view.

Another observation was suggesting a 1.5 gallon tank, whether this was specific to some smaller Honda wasn't clear but my suggestion is doubling the existing capacity will provide a more reliable street application.

When approaching a professional it's best to have a reasonable working knowledge of the subject. However, not to compare what obviously is a very expensive piece of machinery with those of a street driven car may not net much support for the untried R&D of what's under discussion. His focus is that which he knows works for him and those playing in the big league with sponsors boasting particular products and not that of DIY construction.

It was suggested using a smog pump to pull a vacuum on the crankcase... that too was not what it was designed to do but that was acceptable misuse of an item to acheive a goal, I see no difference of adapting a P/S pump to achieve the same result of removing oil from the crankcase just because someone didn't read it elsewhere.

Under no circumstances can the exhaust of the smog pump be allowed to be re-introduced to the oil or air intake systems. Until it's been done and results established there may need for refinements but the basics have to be done first.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by AWDlaserRS
Since so many people keep saying that a PS pump wont work for this application and no one has actually tried it yet, I think I am going to put it to the test since I seriously want to use a dry sump system on my new 6 bolt. What Im going to do is hook up an electric drill to it to spin the pump and just let it pump oil in and out of a bucket for like a day straight. The things I will be observing are how efficiently the pump is moving the oil, airation of the oil, and any leaks or weak spots in the pump. I will be doing this today or tomorow. Any suggestions on what other things I should keep an eye out for?

If I may suggest forget the electric drill, it won't be up to the task and could burn out and start a fire. You would be much better off using an old washing machine motor but you can't direct couple with a piece of hose which would handle the misalignment unless it has an output shaft which will give the CCW rotation. If you are lucky and have one you can then use hose clamps and short section of heater hose to adapt to slight shaft size variations. Otherwise you will need belt and pulleys, if you have a table saw motor that you can easily rig then that would be another instant solution. The drill will work for short periods of time but just don't trust it or leave unattended.

If you have a pressure gauge and some sort of gate/ball valve you can experiment with GPM or GPH vs pressures. On the suction side plastic sprinkler pipe would be ideal, using unreinforced hose here could result in the hose collapsing and ruining the pump form oil starvation. A short span won't hurt but 6" could collapse. On the output hose or PVC pipe but don't excede 80 psi if you put a load on the system for you will have a big mess and could get hurt. These pumps will stall out a 2 hp motor in a heart beat if you simulate full steering wheel lock and 1500+ psi so everything must be bolted down with the idea it's going to rip it's self apart if you ask it to do some work besides that of a scavanger pump. If using a belt drive don't snug it too tight, for that can be a safety margin if you allow it to slip under load.

For the pickup use some window screen wrapped around a piece of pvc which has been drilled to allow oil to pass through as it gets to the inlet. This will keep leaves etc. out of the system... hehehe

Don't ask it to lift too high on the suction side for very long, for that will be an abnormal condition and could cause disolved solvents in waste oil to boil off plus expanding any disolved air. I wouldn't go any less than 1/2" on either side of the pump as being the smallest restriction, better 5/8". Also note that a 90 degree elbow can reduce efficiency by as much as 25% if using rigid pipe so these would be factors in real life when choosing pipe over hose.

The outlet into your tank should strike a deflector so it can difuse the oil rather than have it just dump straight into the tank and plunge the small bubbles into the pickup.

Does that help?

Sorry, may have missed some things but just learned a biker friend was killed while returning form Daytona Bike Week so my head is else where.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[AWDlaserRS]

Thanks for all the info but I just thought of the simplest way to accomplish this: Just pull my Laser up into the garage, temporarily disconect the power steering pump hoses from the pump and attach the ones from my parts car and dangle them both into a bucket of oil one as the pickup and one as the return, then I can simply just start my car and let it run, much easier than figuring out how to attach it to a table saw or ect. I do have a pressure guage also.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by AWDlaserRS

...
temporarily disconect the power steering pump hoses from the pump and attach the ones from my parts car and dangle them both into a bucket of oil one as the pickup and one as the return, then I can simply just start my car and let it run, much easier than figuring out how to attach it to a table saw or ect. I do have a pressure guage also.

... the mother of invention!!!

Super, that will solve a lot issues of torque and countertorque. I don't know how extensive you want to research this. Ideal would be to have 1 container say 3"-6" lower to represent the oil pan which you are trying to clear, the other higher up representing the new storage tank and then a means of monitoring / controlling the flow between the 2 containers relative to engine rpm, increased lube oil pressure. etc. Make sure you don't leave you car running and someone can break a window and drive away. Gasoline is $2.19 /gallon here in LA, so don't empty your tank, if you have the time letting it sit overnight and reaching outside temp will give a more viscous oil to pump. It would also be of value to monitor oil temp and record temp rise vs time. You aren't asking it to do any real work so the temp rise will not be impressive. There are a lot of obversations to take but be scientifically systematic if possible noting time intervals, when the radiator fan kicks in and blows warm air at the pump etc.

I am thrilled you have undertaken the initial stage so we can see the numbers, results, and data. Another value harder to establish will be that of lube oil demand in GPM/GPH at various RPM. I've not thought this through, what effects would having an overkill with the P/S pump... eg using one from an 18 wheeler vs that of a DSM which I would estimate to be adequate. I'll be waiting with bated breath for your first report.

Do flush the P/S pump with solvent and P/S or the proper ATF before returning to service. Hot dang!

Cheers,
Gene

 

[AWDlaserRS]

GTM, it may be a week before I can do this now because the insurance company guy came the day I was going to do it, they declared the car totalled (dented rear bumper ) I am currently threatening to sue them and now they could be coming anytime now to look at it again and "reconsider".

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by AWDlaserRS
GTM, it may be a week before I can do this now because the insurance company guy came the day I was going to do it, they declared the car totalled
...

Thanks for letting me know, had wondered what had happened to you.

One of the tools you can use is to list all the "improvements" and expenses which sets your car apart from what they consider the norm average running car that is X years old. You don't want them to think it's a high risk high performance vehicle and cancel you so you have to demonstrate that their assigned value is not the same as their book value including a full tank of gas, new paint etc.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[AWDlaserRS]

Good news!

I convinced the insurance company to reconsider and not to put a salvage title on it, plus their going to call the body shop to get the damage estimate and pay it as soon as possible. Which means I get $2300, I only slapped down $1200 for the car . I can fix the damage for less than $100 because of my parts eclipse so thet means Ill have plenty left for my 6 bolt.

GTM now I can finally do the PS pump test now that I know my car wont be searched over for flaws, most likely Ill do it this weeekend because I have to fix the fuel leak (caused by the accident).

 

[gsxstac]

all i gotta say s that john shpeheard runs 8's at over 160mph in basically a heavily modified street car. i know its not on the road but its in the street class. if people are runnin 8's without a prob on the setup that mitusbishi made then why change it? why fiz something thats not broken? obviously this is not a weakpoint in the 4g63, I just cant see the money/time being worth 10whp if you even get that much. all that money and time can always be put 100 other places first. Good luck if you try it and i'll be very impressed to see it happen but I dont think its all necessary

 

[MNGSX]

On an all out racing engine dry sumps have been proven to produce a good bit of horsepower over its wet sump equivelent.

It's worth it at a given level... I would'nt be too surprised to see a dry sump on JS's car as he keeps chopping away at AWD ET records...

If you don't have cams, intake, big turbo etc. etc. etc. the last thing you need to worry about is a wet sump.

Just because it wont produce the same HP per $ as the others...

To really be effective you need two GOOD scavenge pumps.. Not ps pumps... You need twice the force pulling oil out as puting it in.. No excess oil in the pan and a good vaccum in the crankcase to help the rings. Done properly on an all out racing motor it really could be easily a 100hp gain....

There are gains you cant recreate on a dyno either like oil control on launch... On the dyno the oil does not try to climb up the back of the pan since the only thing going anywhere is the rollers...

 

[blue1]

Guys there is a lot to dry sump systems on the market, i have set up heaps of them. Power steering pumps forget it they are mainly vane pumps that are gravity feed and most of there life in in a straight line with very little load always bypassing!!! thats why 99% of engine oil pumps are gear type they can handle the abuse required in the oiling system wet or dry sumped. Electric driven (GOOD LUCK!) might as well pull your bearings out now, The gains of of a well set up dry sump are great. but for a daily driver that goes to the track with 300 to 600 hp a well made crank scaper i'm talking all the outer edges of the rotating mass missing the scraper by 1mm, even shaped to go around the rod bolts as they pass work well, then a full windage tray and work out a way where you can extend the sump outwards an inch or two. Thats the side if you were looking at the motor from the timing belt end it would be the left hand side you want to extend out, so the oil just doesn;t bounce back of the sump wall. We channel the oil from the scaper into that new sump cavity and it drops back to the bottom of the pan out of harms way sheilded by the windage tray.

Crankcase pressure: on this engine i am running at the moment i am going to try VAC-U-Pan set up, i will fit a 0 to 30 psi guage on the rocker cover and the vacupan to the top of my oil surge tank which is quite large and heavily baffled and has a -8 line to the rocker cover. on the V8's there was something like 12cfm of air created by windage at 7500rpm and we ran two vacupans one of each r/c, so with only 4 pistons one should be enough.

Tell you how i go, back to the dyno next week by the way i have a 1G put into a dualcab mini truck its a mitsubishi triton i am running AEM ecu ,16G, staged injection JDM cyclone manifold (set up through the ECU) Heads ported valve job i run 18psi as a daily driver we have 98% octane fuel @ $1.06 a litre.

 

[wickedchimp]

Just a side note for you folks. I have not read the entire thread and apologize ahead of time if any of my points have been mentioned already. I was at sema a couple of years back and HKS brought a full race 4g63 that did have a dry sump system on it. It looked very slick I might add, all anodized purple. I inquired about it several times to the booth monkeys but they would not tell me anything except that it was a one off. I tried contacting HKS america several times and could not get a response about it. I did also try contacting HKS europe where they deal with alot of the 4g63s. Unfortunately, I was unable to get anyone to respond with any kind of specs on it. Maybe someone else has an inside contact at hks that could hook us all up. Many months after abandoning my annoyance of HK$ and selling my dsm I did notice that moroso sells some dry sump kits for the domestics that you can maybe piece together for our needs. Im now getting back into dsm, next week hopefully starting a whole new project. A dry sump system would be very beneficial to the 4g63 and I would commend anyone who gets one working. Good luck to all! I will be keeping an eye on this thread.

 

[GTM]

Just a side note for you folks. I have not read the entire thread and apologize ahead of time if any of my points have been mentioned already.
...
I did also try contacting HKS europe where they deal with alot of the 4g63s.
...
and selling my dsm
...
A dry sump system would be very beneficial to the 4g63 and I would commend anyone who gets one working. Good luck to all! I will be keeping an eye on this thread.

I would suggest that you do read the thread if you are remotely interested in do-it-yourself. Unfortunately I don't think you can off load all the msgs in a thread for reading. My son sold his 1G and thus I don't have access to a test vehicle. He's off to college and I'm helping him drive across country so will be off line for a week or so should you have any questions not found in previous posts.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[AWDlaserRS]

GTM sorry I kinda left you hanging on the PS pump experiment, basically I never ended up doing it because I needed the car nonstop while I was still driving it. Another reason was that I had to replace my original PS pump because it started leaking causing the belt to squeek all the time so I didn't want to risk killing my only one. My new 6 bolt is all done now and after all I spent on it, basically new everything even crankshaft (wasnt cheap) I didn't want to experiment on it and risk blowing it up. Im still very interested in the concept though.

 

[burldude]

I have read this hole post and read all the information . I think that the power steering pump theory may work ,but . There are manny other things that have to happen . Crank case evacuation really seems to be left out . Sure you can rig a power steering pump to suck all the oil out of the pan . What next plumb it into another holding take to pressurize it into the oil system? A person might as well by a Moroso 3 stage and mount it in the power steering pump location . A fabricated pan and an external line running from the stock oil pump inlet and some fittings is all that is needed. Want to catch all the mist and settle it and plumb it into the system, thats what a good pump will do. A power steering pump will not draw vacuum like a specialized pump will . The vacuum pump does not come close to the psi of an oil pump ,if it did all the oil seals would have there lips ripped off . I am not filthy rich nor do I claim to be but a dry sump system is on my list of things to have . There are also draw backs such as removing to much crankcase oil on a street car . The pistons rely heavilly on the oil to cool them . What kind of mileage cut would a drysump incur on a turbo charged engine ?

 

[SteveCO]

Okay, I'd quite like to start this thread up again

I'm quite keen to try this experiment. I'm sceptical that a vane pump won't draw too much air into the system and agitate it too much, but I'd like to attempt it, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

As regards using any sort of flexible pvc-ish hosing to connect the shafts, you're asking for trouble as it'll just twist it up right away at the speeds we're working at; my preference
would be a sprung coil between the two.

Also as I can see, if we're going to rub a PS pump inline with a drive belt, I think I'm right in saying it's going to spin far faster than an electric drill can go (2000rpm ish)? With that in mind, I'm trying to get access to an electric motor which will handle 4000/4500rpm, which is proving problematic, I'm looking for suggestions?

In addition, what kind of viscosity oil should we be testing? I'm going to be using an extremely thin oil for my purposes, but you guys have your own preferences I expect, and I'll check a couple of grades, see what the results are.

 

[GTM]

Hi Steve and all:

Okay, I'd quite like to start this thread up again

I'm quite keen to try this experiment. I'm sceptical that a vane pump won't draw too much air into the system and agitate it too much, but I'd like to attempt it, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
As regards using any sort of flexible pvc-ish hosing to connect the shafts, you're asking for trouble as it'll just twist it up right away at the speeds we're working at; my preference
would be a sprung coil between the two.
Also as I can see, if we're going to rub a PS pump inline with a drive belt, I think I'm right in saying it's going to spin far faster than an electric drill can go (2000rpm ish)? With that in mind, I'm trying to get access to an electric motor which will handle 4000/4500rpm, which is proving problematic, I'm looking for suggestions?

In addition, what kind of viscosity oil should we be testing? I'm going to be using an extremely thin oil for my purposes, but you guys have your own preferences I expect, and I'll check a couple of grades, see what the results are.

Sure thing, let me see if I can help encourage your interests. By definition a scavenger pump WILL draw air, it has to for you can't calculate / balance what the system uses for lube and that which just gets dumped back into the pan with the pressure relief valve in the oil filter base and one in the pressure pump. Thus it MUST have a larger capacity than the oil lube pump at all times. I don't care what pump you buy, spend $5,000 that condition must be met. This is a given, no exceptions no argument.

So you will be drawing air (crankcase gases) into the scavenge pump no matter what pump you choose. I have never seen a vacuum pump on a dry sump system whose duty was ONLY to pull a vacuum on the crankcase, so where does it come from... the scavenger pump of course. I don't know who suggested using "pvc-ish" hose that you reference but the only context that I had suggested was for bench testing flow volume with a 110v motor but you would have to have one which turns CCW if face to face and the hose is clamped as a flex coupling on each shaft. You might luck out and find a double ended washing machine motor which then will net one shaft rotating CCW. This is only for bench testing flow and initial design, my guess is 1/2"-5/8" hose and or PVC pipe will do all you need until you make the final install on the vehicle. I don't understand your statement "sprung coil between the two"????? I had also suggested just swapping out the existing PS pump with a wrecking yard pump and hooking your hoses to that rather than having to disconnect PS pump lines, switch over to engine oil if you can't find a washing machine motor for bench testing.
..................

No, no, no. take a look at your crank pulley and the power steering pump pulley, usually the crank will be larger maybe by as much as 2x or 3x the PS pulley which gives twice or three times the RPM, thus if engine is turning 5,000 the PS is turning 10,000-15,000 RPM. BTW a standard 1/4" drill with no speed control will turn 2225 or 2250 (I forgot which) and not by coincidence just happens to be the calibration speed of most speedometers at 60mph. The washing machine motor turns at 1725 which will be about idle speed if you direct couple the shafts for bench testing +/- some %. Under no circumstances can you consider running a PS pump (any scavenger pump) on the car with an electric motor. About the only motor I can think of which would do what you want would be a starter motor for you are going to need maybe 1hp when the engine is at redline for the oil demand is not linear but exponential. While this may be ok on a dragster you can't expect your alternator to keep up with that draw while cruising Hollywood Blvd. So forget the electric motor for anything but bench testing. My design concept has always been predicated that it would be belt driven possibly using the same belt as the existing PS belt. If you are going to remove the PS rack then the pump may be left exactly where it is and no bracket fabrication needed. Again this COULD be a bit iffy and why I suggest bench testing as you read on. If you have a diesel mechanics tach you can actually put a strobe on the pulley to get exact RPM.

Now you got 2 hoses of which one is going into a bucket which will represent your dry sump (suction side) and the other (output) going to another bucket which represents you wet sump. Again for bench testing only you will need a return hose which when the wet sump is filled the oil will drain back into the dry sump so you have a completed circuit. My suggestion is go to a marine hardware store and buy a 3/4"-1" thru-hull and any adapter to either use hose or PVC pipe for the drain back, this will be located on the side of the dishpan. In real life this will be near the bottom of your wet sump. I suggest the 99¢ store and actually get a couple of the square dishpans which will hold at least a couple of gallons each. Under these test conditions the wet sump must be higher than the dry so gravity will return the oil to the dry sump. I've not measured the height of the existing PS pump location to the bottom of the oil pan so at some point you will want to have that much height difference because you need to know how well the pump will self prime with say an 18"-23" lift. This is the only iffy consideration for which I've no answer and thus bench testing is important IF you are going to use the existing pump location. Of course if you get the pump down low say level with the crank then you only have a few inches of lift.

Real life wet sumps will have baffles or some method of instantly controlling the froth because as we have seen you will be pumping oil and air. You can't just have it squirting into the pan for some of the bubbles will be suspended and get sucked back into what will be the existing oil pressure pump and cause problems. So if you direct the oil onto at least one flat plate the oil will be diffused and fall back into the wet sump in several streams at a much slower flow thus allowing the bubbles to remain at the top and not in suspension. Even more effective is to have a wire mesh at the edge of the baffle which will greatly improve the separation before it falls into the wet sump. For you bench testing use an old sock (no holes please) but you can try it with nothing and watch the process, then try a flat piece of plastic to represent the baffle so you get some idea of what you are dealing with and can then design your system.

burldude I don't mean to be insulting but it would be helpful if you learned something about PS pumps, they don't generate 400-1000 LBS pis because they can't "suck" oil. Most certainly your existing lube oil pump cannot safely handle those pressures without self destrucing. Consider the millions upon millions of miles driven by passenger cars every day, if they were poorly engineered everyone would be breaking down if they weren't rock solid. OTHER than the pump all the parts will be the same unless you decide you want a 3 stage and to spend $$$$, the FOCUS of this thread was using a PS pump and DOING IT YOURSELF. For this application we will not be subjecting the pump to anything but nominal pressure, just that imposed by friction forcing it through the hose and fittings where it will free flow into the wet sump. Go look at a Harley Davidson motorcycle, a good many especially the custom built will have a dry sump oil system. Maybe the library will have some drawings of the oil system and they are not running a 3 stage pump. It's not my style to be contentious and I don't do insults or bite so feel free to ask any questions but for goodness sakes don't tell me or anyone else that the PS pump will not work when you have not investigated what this pump can do. You are welcome to look at my bio, it's there for everyone to see, been there and done that. While I make no claims to be a DSM specialist what we are discussing can be performed on any vehicle.

I'll stop for now and let those interested digest and ask questions about what I've written to this point.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[defrag010]

I just came up with an idea i thought i'd throw in there. A bench grinder motor is good for turning reliable rpm's. I've left a Baldor grinder on for days with no harm.

 

[burldude]

Honestly it has been a year since this was started , and it has not even been tested. I am all for fabbing somthing up . But if it is well thought out , it can be executed .

I would like to see this continue , I dont know where you got the idea that I said it wouldnt work?

You obviously see the problems of matching the volume of air/oil mist drawn and vacuum psi. With a full system this isnt such a problem . From what I reading and please tell me if I am wrong. You just want to mount a vacuum (vane style pump ) to draw gasses out of the crank case ? No problem, the power steering pump will do it . Will it draw enough to make a difference ,maybe ? With a breather on the top of the valve cover you will have enough leak by as to not cause any seal failures. Just pull out the gasses and have them fall back through a screen can and drop back down through the turbo drain back . What is you question on it all ? I highly doubt that you will vapor suck the crankcase dry ,Unless you are going through some high g cornering and run all the oil to one side . The side your crank case evacuation pickup happens to be on .

Where did you plan on locating this pickup? High up on the side of the oil pan I assume .

 

[GTM]

I just came up with an idea i thought i'd throw in there. A bench grinder motor is good for turning reliable rpm's. I've left a Baldor grinder on for days with no harm.

Good point.
Certainly a possibility since most will be double ended. There is one consideration which shouldn't be ignored and that is they turn 2x faster than most of the more common 1725 rpm utility motors. For this reason the starting torque will be reduced and if the choice is to belt drive the pump, pulley selection should be considered. It's been several years since I've bench tested hydraulic pumps so I don't have a gut feeling for the resistance.

The idea here is confirm that the factory PS pump will deliver enough volume and pull a desired vacuum on the system along with other data such as back pressure encountered just pumping free flow cold oil from the dry sump to the wet sump. Included in these R&D tests will reveal the electric motor's ability to achieve it's rated torque range with the additional small load of the cold oil. Again my gut feeling is this may not be a real issue because we are only dealing with a free flowing pump but can't be totally ignored.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

Honestly it has been a year since this was started , and it has not even been tested. I am all for fabbing somthing up . But if it is well thought out , it can be executed .

I would like to see this continue , I dont know where you got the idea that I said it wouldnt work?

You obviously see the problems of matching the volume of air/oil mist drawn and vacuum psi. With a full system this isnt such a problem . From what I reading and please tell me if I am wrong. You just want to mount a vacuum (vane style pump ) to draw gasses out of the crank case ? No problem, the power steering pump will do it . Will it draw enough to make a difference ,maybe ? With a breather on the top of the valve cover you will have enough leak by as to not cause any seal failures. Just pull out the gasses and have them fall back through a screen can and drop back down through the turbo drain back . What is you question on it all ? I highly doubt that you will vapor suck the crankcase dry ,Unless you are going through some high g cornering and run all the oil to one side . The side your crank case evacuation pickup happens to be on .

Where did you plan on locating this pickup? High up on the side of the oil pan I assume .

The idea came of my own knowledge of all the systems and components involved. This includes maybe 40 thousand cars and a few hundred boats, a few dozen motorcycles, and having built 2 yachts and an ongoing project autocycle. Along this path I've acquired a wealth of knowledge and standings such as a provisional teaching credential, associate member of SAE, tech inspector SCCA. These are not my only interests, vocations, avocations by any means for I'm working on a patent which involves the orchestra flute. Since my son recently lost a leg to a motorcycle accident I'm involved in developing a patentable prosthesis which will allow him to use swim fins. Does that give you _any_ confidence?? 110 years ago they said man couldn't fly, now we are planning on sending a manned mission to Mars.

What inspired me to pose the idea: Reading all the posts here where so much attention is being paid to increasing HP through a variety of methods some of which may yield a couple HP. With the advent of affordable dynos the ability to see improvements has been vastly expanded and includes measuring HP gains by installing a dry sump system which has been shown to yield 15-20+ more and reduce wear on engine components by improving it's efficiency. I'm not looking for unqualified nay-sayers, I want to expose the real problems not those based on a lack of knowledge.
..........................

You are wrong in this sense, I am interested in using a PS pump because it is affordable and reliable. Should a factory pump not deliver then it may require one from a pickup truck or large passenger car. There are any number of neoprene flex-vane pumps which _will_ do the job but the reliability factor is questionable and when they fail it is frequently sudden and catastropic. I don't want to go off on that tangent until it has been proved that a PS pump CANNOT do what we are asking. Look into the common failures of these pumps and running them out of oil is probably the most common and then putting a significant load such as parking on crowned hillside roads with _no_ oil. As long as the engine is running there will be oil present in the dry sump along with vapors but insignificant head pressures, what more could you want...

You mention a breather as if this is something which you would NOT encounter if you spent $2000 for some pretty Gold anodized jobbie from someone who takes out full color ads in a racing magazine, do you think for one moment he going to tell you there are other pumps out there,... hells bells. Chances are these are the ONLY pumps he's ever built, the only hydraulic systems he has ever seen. Maybe they sell 1000 a year, consider how many PS pumps are made and work reliably for decades with no maintenance other than changing the oil. They do not just fail without warning, you hear them driving down the road as a high pitched humm as they start to fail. You have 2-3 gallons in the wet sump which will more than fill the crankcase, throw so much oil at the pistons to cause a smoke screen behind you and still be lubing the crank and valves as it's carried up the drain holes. You are fishing at straws for not doing something because it's unfamiliar, you have no confidence in yourself and no matter what you toss my way don't trust what I've written.

No, no NO!! You cannot have them drop back into the crankcase for you will have created a useless loop, they are either vented to the outside air or introduced back into the intake manifold to be burned. Hence the breather you mention actually has to be a metered jet (orifice / vacuum check valve) to establish and maintain a vacuum but this is still common to _any_ dry sump system. Again if you buy a pump off the shelf you must provide some information whereby the pump maker has calculated already how much sump oil must be pumped and how much crankcase gases may be encountered.

I don't have a question except why don't you spend a few hours getting up to speed, the "you" is not meant to be flippant or insulting but I keep reading and having to explain things which are suggesting a lack of knowledge or understanding. We are talking about the PS pump removing ALL the oil as practical (the same for a the $2000pump) along with crankcase gases (same for the $2000 pump) which does not have a separate vacuum or pressure pump. Please lets not spin our wheels and waste energy going off on tangents as if they are something unique to what is being proposed. You can pay someone to do this for you and they will do all the calculations and you won't have to do any thing other than sign the cheque.

There are issues here which need to be addressed as a "do it yourself" project but the first concern is what PS pump to use and until that is established through some basic bench flow testing we won't know. We have had to discuss such things as airplanes flying upside down and why they don't run out of oil... I have to keep repeating and fending off comments which are not getting any closer to our goals. With the new features on the board you may be able to download the thread, maybe even import into a word processor where you can search for words, otherwise reread all the posts, look at pictures from other sites, read read read.

But to answer your question the pickup it will be located on the side of the oil pan and as close to the bottom as practical to scavenge as much oil, air and vapors. Repeating myself this is common to any system and is a MUST do. This will have _no_ effect on "G" forces causing oil starvation for that will be the concern of the wet sump pickup which delivers the oil to the factory pressure lube pump which must have it's own fitting fabricated to replace the pickup screen and down pipe. This will need some concern for if you attach to the pan then removal and attachment to the lube pump will require a hose which can't hit the crank as it is rotating. I can't tell you where this is, the block side wall would be a better choice since it wouldn't need the length to gain access to the previously removed pickup mount.

After that you can retain the existing pressure system or remote mount an oil filter but I'm not sure that is necessary for there will be plenty of heat loss from the hoses and wet sump radiating the heat. You keep the existing thermostat and oil cooler for they are on the pressure side but will probably see little flow being diverted to the cooler. You will have added weight with hoses and a wet sump but again still common to any system. Without a pump from the wet sump a large diameter hose and / or pipe will be required to reduce suction losses to the lube pump, again my gut says 5/8"-3/4" to prevent high vacuum values. I don't have an engine to view, maybe there is a blanking plug in the block which will allow the scavenger pickup to fit through there rather than welding a fitting on the oil pan.

There is nothing to keep anyone from laying in some of the parts which are going to be needed if some great deal comes your way... hoses, pipe, fittings, sump tank, already modified OIL pan, etc. These are the common parts no matter what pump you select. This is not a project for some shade tree wanna-be, it will take some skill though not rocket science, probably above many mechanics but perhaps I have misjudged my former profession, it is a project which will give the satisfaction of having done it and learning new things along the way. If after having done it the only mods will be to the oil pan and any baffles / windage trays installed. Unbolt the pan, reinstall the factory pickup and reinstall the pan and any breather mods made. If you don't like the pump then buy a ready made pump specifically made. You still will have the knowledge learned along the way... what's that worth, it probably won't get you a job at Lube Masters, it might get you a job working on hydraulics if you didn't have any experience. It might get you a job as a mechanic for it shows a willingness to tackle unconventional thinking outside the box

This isn't something you are going to do on grandma's car while she is out visiting relatives. There will be some element of scrounging and fabricating parts if you are on a budget. Any suction side hoses must not be kinked or allowed to collapse even though they are low pressure, you might be able to get away with garden hose on the bench tests but in the real world it has to be fairly stiff walled hose or metal tubing.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[burldude]

I think that is the clearest, most precise post you have made showing the actual design plan.

At 7000 + rpm you are asking alot of the power steering pump. I understand that you want to draw all the oil and crankcase gasses and seperate them , Out of one pickup?

I dont want to beat this down but man honestly it can be done with a large enough pump . But talk about the problems to be encountered . Addressing dry start up , will not be to big of an issue ,you wil just need an acumulator tank . That will take a little more room .
Then you will have to worry about pump draw and pulling the oil out of the pan into the power steering pump . WIthout it primed it takes quite a while for it to draw. This is a vane style pump and do not like to develope head pressure without a prime so you will need a check valve at the oil pan , another falable peice (buy a good one).

Your right I would not want to do this to any Grandmothers car . It will take alot of work and will cost alot of time. What 50 plus man hours to develope and install , not counting the time spent here and the cost of materials (fittings, seperator tanks , welding fabrication)

 

[GTM]

I think that is the clearest, most precise post you have made showing the actual design plan.
At 7000 + rpm you are asking alot of the power steering pump. I understand that you want to draw all the oil and crankcase gasses and seperate them , Out of one pickup?
I dont want to beat this down but man honestly it can be done with a large enough pump . But talk about the problems to be encountered . Addressing dry start up , will not be to big of an issue ,you wil just need an acumulator tank . That will take a little more room .
Then you will have to worry about pump draw and pulling the oil out of the pan into the power steering pump . WIthout it primed it takes quite a while for it to draw. This is a vane style pump and do not like to develope head pressure without a prime so you will need a check valve at the oil pan , another falable peice (buy a good one).
Your right I would not want to do this to any Grandmothers car . It will take alot of work and will cost alot of time. What 50 plus man hours to develope and install , not counting the time spent here and the cost of materials (fittings, seperator tanks , welding fabrication)

All that was written has existed in previous posts. burldude, you have offered nothing to support why the PS pump will not work for this application or that there is some design flaw. Other than the PS pump the system is identical to all other systems PERIOD why do you keep repeating that there are differences????????? There are thousands of cars which have used a single pump to scavenge both oil and air from the crankcase, I have previously listed some when the thread began. Unlike a centrifugal pump it is a positive displacement pump and will self prime, the whole point in bench testing is to determine what are the properties of the factory pump. I know for a fact that if the pump had recently been primed and allowed the suction side to ingest a full charge of air it will produce a considerable vacuum, I have used them to pump water and sludge from boat bilges with 3' lift and a 1/4" drill motor. The pump used was not serviceable for I had removed it from a customer's car and replaced it with a new pump yet it still was functional enough for that application.

Why would this need an 'accumulator tank' when others do not?? Where did you come up with the word and for what application? As for problems most have been covered in previous posts, what problems will differ from this to any other commercial system which will cost you thousands. In one sentence you say start up will not be a problem and in another you say it will ... make up your mind, which is it. Back when this discussion first started I tried to find any PS pump maker who had published pump specifications on the Internet and had no success. I have seen the info published in some vehicle shop manual but that was years ago and cannot remember them.

Let me say that it is obvious that you have (0) zero experience and have not taken it to heart to even research any aspect of the project. Before you post again provide some URLs to demonstrate that you have read 1) basic system concept, 2) cutaway drawings of existing pumps, 3) high vacuum vane pumps.

Look up the meaning of the word contentious. My feelings are you are one of these people who will not try or think out of the box and do little to educate yourself unless someone hands it to you on a plate. If they do the R&D you will accept this, if they do the math instead of you, you will take this, and yet all that you post is just a waste of MY time and anyone else reading this thread. It is my professional opinion and reputation that the PS pump will work, what is needed is solid data which can be projected so reasonable conclusions with conservative margins of safety be established. You are suggesting 7,000 rpm is demanding too much yet you cannot tell us what the engine oil pump inlet diameter is and how that differs from the PS pump. We know the PS operating pressure is at least 400psi when under load, what you don't know is the PS pump dumps most of it's pressure at high rpm. We are NOT asking it to build any pressure, I would be surprised if it reached 25psi when cold. You have some unqualified hangup with vane pumps and yet will not bother to investigate their properties.

You then cite that there is going to be a lot of fabrication and expense which is NONSENSE in the context of "do it yourself". Again I have to repeat myself, go buy all the ready made components and install them if you DO NOT want to get involved. Pay someone to install them, you have the money, they have done what you WILL not, they will charge you accordingly. Had you read my earlier posts you would have seen that suggest the system can be built for $200 if you know what you need and where to scrounge parts. I would recommend a rebuilt pump as the final finished product but either your own pump or that from a wrecking yard be used while bench testing and proofing the installation. It might be prudent to install another oil filter on a temporary basis unless you have been very conscientious to keep everything CLEAN.

All we need is ONE person to provide the bench test flow data at various head lift heights, this will determine whether the existing pump location and mounting brackets can be used. It could also be useful to subject a pump to destruction by running it dry or starving it for nominal lube. My gut feeling is it will fair much better that the engine lube oil pump. Just as in regular maintenance drive belts will need to be monitored and changed before the wear out. And just like your water pump belt failure there is a risk of engine damage unless you have some warning device(s) installed. If failure is a radical concern it would take little more effort to install a bypass valve which will short circuit the pickup to it's conventional wet crankcase condition. You will then be faced with adding oil to the proper level.

It is my contention that the PS pump is far more robust and capable of RPMs which would cause the commercial pumps to self destruct in a heart beat. That they will take more punishment and abuse than a gear/gearotor driven pump which cannot handle both fluid and air or particulate matter. I see no reason to keep responding to your posts when from all outward appearances which suggest there is no intention of contributing anything but uninformed verbiage and continue to introduce information which is common to all systems. I look at your bio and see you have spend significant sums of money to build an engine. It says you are a contractor which should imply you are capable of reading tables, block diagrams, flow charts, and doing math. Yet I see in other posts information which for the want of a better description causes me to lift an eyebrow because you didn't want to do simple tasks and depended on others to provide what you should have done as an informed contributor. I ask again please offer information which will disprove, counter, any assertion which I have offered with factual information. It is unfortunate that you have continued to post and waste everyone's time, you suckered me into thinking you had a sincere interest in the project when all you want is pre-printed instruction sheet that tells you where to drill some hole and what screw size to use from which baggie. If you are incapable of mounting a pump on a piece of plywood, belting an electric motor and attaching hoses then this is not for you. If all you have to offer is that it takes time this is not for you, in the length of time I've had to spend answering your posts I could have a system on a bench and running. I don't have a bench or a place to conduct the R&D and it will be several months before that might even happen. Go start your own thread and quit spoiling what some have shown as a real interest. You have managed to ruffle my feathers with counterproductive posts which come from a basic lack of knowledge or willingness to learn a damn thing. You want me or someone else to deliver a finished system for free while offering nothing. I didn't fall off the turnip truck just yesterday, I'm not here for your amusement because you are bored. I've paid my dues a long time ago, in all probability before you were born, I've forgotten more than you will ever know as evidenced just by your contributions on this thread alone. If there is something you or anyone needs help with I'll be glad to put my thinking cap on but don't waste my time.

GTM

 

[burldude]

FIrst off let me start by saying I have never once said this will not work . So I am thinking that I will have to develope it and make it work just to throw it in your face . Iam very busy though so I will take time off from work to show how it has to be .

All we need is ONE person to provide the bench test flow data at various head lift heights, this will determine whether the existing pump location and mounting brackets can be used. It could also be useful to subject a pump to destruction by running it dry or starving it for nominal lube. My gut feeling is it will fair much better that the engine lube oil pump. Just as in regular maintenance drive belts will need to be monitored and changed before the wear out. And just like your water pump belt failure there is a risk of engine damage unless you have some warning device(s) installed.

If failure is a radical concern it would take little more effort to install a bypass valve which will short circuit the pickup to it's conventional wet crankcase condition. You will then be faced with adding oil to the proper level.

You might say that I have contributed nothing . But I see that you are now considering the what ifs.

I can go ahead and test this so that you can see that Iam not just trying to bash your thread . I will use a nissan power steering pump since I have one lying at a freinds house and get back to you with the lift and the rediculous amount of time to prime . So I guess when this pump shows to take ten seconds to develope pressure or head since it will be free flowing . I will then submit my findings without contention . Now how fast should I spin this ?


I will spin this at an idle startup speed and then idle speed starting it dry . You do relize that this time will starve bearings of oil ? This is why an accumulator tank is needed . Look it up and you will find most high end systems use them . I will Use a Makita 3/8 drive drill with a 1500 rpm and if that does not suffice I will use my 1/2 inch drive wich will only do a 1000 rpm but will not bog down to less than 750. These are rough rpm points ,as Iam sure you will suggest .

Obviously you are hurt becuase Iam questioning the rational of using this system you have worked on designing . I hope that you understand that my intent is not to disprove it but to evaluate the feesabillity of applied application . Iam working on my own beat down topics and everyone that is not malicious helps . Please pm and tell me the test criteria and we can go from there .

My biggest concern in this thread is dry start up. Do you have a remedy for this ? The stock pickup and pump are very low so that prime is close to instant and pressure follows quickly . This is why I stressed the accumulator tank( like a preluber) to prime the system before startup . I will test this wednesday or thursday , hopefully wednesday . So here Iam am the sucker that is going to do the work without pay.

 

[SteveCO]

Anything I can do, let me know. I've got a lot of work on right now (unexpectedly, I was looking forward to a quiet couple of months!) , but if someone gives me a set of conditions, I may be able to put something together, I have a lot of kit sat in my garage that doesn't get the use it should.

Just an aside, I don't own a ... (I really don't know what model, we don't have an equivalent) Mitsubishi, my racecar is of another manufacturer, but still a highly modified road engine, so you're going to have to tell me what to do for it to be applicable to your needs.

I think I have a spare VW power steering pump, and I'll take someone else's great suggestion of a bench grinder (very resourceful!). I still don't know what viscosity you favour...

I'll use the VW pump, from a bench grinder, and a 5L tank of 10/40 semi-synthetic oil, run for a period of 5 hours, and I'll get some pictures, which is pretty much all one can do I guess. I'll go to 4000 rpm if it's feasible, which I'll find out this weekend if I have time.