Dry sump oiling system

[GTM]

Anything I can do, let me know. I've got a lot of work on right now (unexpectedly, I was looking forward to a quiet couple of months!) , but if someone gives me a set of conditions, I may be able to put something together, I have a lot of kit sat in my garage that doesn't get the use it should.
Just an aside, I don't own a ...
I think I have a spare VW power steering pump, and I'll take someone else's great suggestion of a bench grinder (very resourceful!). I still don't know what viscosity you favour...
I'll use the VW pump, from a bench grinder, and a 5L tank of 10/40 semi-synthetic oil, run for a period of 5 hours, and I'll get some pictures, which is pretty much all one can do I guess. I'll go to 4000 rpm if it's feasible, which I'll find out this weekend if I have time.

Hi Steve and all:

This Colonial doesn't understand "a lot of kit sat"???

The VW PS pump should prove to be interesting if we are talking about a rear engine car pumping oil all the way forward 10-15 feet forward and back again. What should be avoided is a pump which has it's reservoir built in for it wont allow easy adaptation of oversize hoses.
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Conditions are fairly lax, fix pump to a piece of plywood or bracket which can be firmly bolted / clamped to bench. Remember these can put out more than enough pressure like a diesel injector pump to blow a hole right through your skin so use proper precautions to not have a significant restriction which shoots out a small jet of high pressure oil. Also both pump and motor should be bolted / clamped so neither will tear loose if you decide to subject it to pressure loads while doing some lift / suction measurements. Reports are that a PS pump can take 2hp when under load so if you stall something it will want to tear it's self apart.

I would suggest a 2 or 3 : 1 reduction on pulley ratios with the bench grinder. You may need some way to tension the belt though a slipping belt under load can be a safety feature. If a CCW motor can't be found then having pump and motor face each other will produce the CW rotation whereas both facing the same direction will usually not work for most motors.

I would suggest that the suction side should be at least 1/2" or larger to reduce the chances of creating bubbles by having a high vacuum and thus boiling any gasoline or other volatile solvents which may have contaminated the oil. The output could be 3/8"-1/2" hose, the final design certainly should be greater than the Lube oil input and output port sizes. The idea behind this is that the oil is traveling slower than the Lube oil pump as it moves around the system. There are fluid mechanics which I don't want to introduce as factors thus having less friction and speed will eliminate those concerns.

Once the pump and hoses are secured it's just a matter of starting with the wet sump tank ( plastic dish pan) receive the oil and then a sizable return back to what represents the oil pan (dry sump) which we want to evacuate (another plastic dish pan). The issues to be determined are how does the flow output change as the dry sump is lowered in some incremental value and any priming difficulty. The greater the wet sump capacity the greater opportunity to eliminate any bubbles being reintroduced to the lube oil pump in the final product, do not forget that with a larger capacity it will be exposed a less frequently to pistons and rings. The pump cannot be started totally dry but once run it should always have some residual amount on the output side which should keep things lubed until it primes.

Whatever the priming delay might be for a variety of lift conditions it will not cause engine lube oil pump starvation for it's getting it's source from the wet sump tank. The only possible exception is a badly worn lube pump which allows a significant quantity of oil to leak past the lube pump and drain into the crankcase when the engine has been sitting for some time.

Things to establish are RPM & GPM flow rates. When everything is pumping you will need to have a measured container and a stopwatch or sweep second hand for timing how long it takes to fill a quart / liter container so we can calculate GPM flow @ X RPM. We need to know factory specs for idle and high RPM for the Lube oil pump, someone may have already posted it but I don't remember the numbers. We need to know lift measurements, priming times, output GPM.

Hope I've represented what I perceive as is needed to establish that even a small PS pump will be more than adequate to scavenge both the oil and draw a sufficient vacuum to make a significant difference. This is a full flow single stage system rather that a multi stage which first supplies oil to the lube pump and the excess is pumped away to a wet sump tank plus another pump which more that likely _is_ a vane design to evacuate crankcase gases.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Jon Lane]

http://www.manguspumps.com/products.shtml

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[Jon Lane]

Sport Compact Dry Sump Oil Pump

-One pressure section and two scavenge sections
-Increases crankshaft horsepower by decreasing windage
-Creates crankcase vacuum which decreases blowby and intake charge contamination and also decreases detonation in NO(2) applications
-Eliminates failure common to stock oil pumps
-Externally adjustable oil pressure

http://moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=14315

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[GTM]

http://www.manguspumps.com/products.shtml

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A quick glance at both sites reveal no cutaway of their pumps. However, they did have "Allen nuts" to sell which explains what I've maintained all along. DIY

I note they are touting Gearotor pumps as if they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. this must be because unlike the import industry which has been using them for decades Detroit'a auto industry has been slow to accept they are a superior Lube oil pump. What would be nice is cutaway of PS pump showing how beefy the shaft drive is, rotor, vanes, etc.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

Oh fooey

 

[GTM]

arg arg

 

[GTM]

Argh

 

[GTM]

Sport Compact Dry Sump Oil Pump

-One pressure section and two scavenge sections
-Increases crankshaft horsepower by decreasing windage
-Creates crankcase vacuum which decreases blowby and intake charge contamination and also decreases detonation in NO(2) applications
-Eliminates failure common to stock oil pumps
-Externally adjustable oil pressure

http://moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=14315

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Anyone interested in pursuing this thread that I started?

Gene

 

[dick_213]

i didnt want to read like 5 pages of text but dry sumps are also used in drag racing applications when the force is great enough to move the oil away from the pump so the engine can be lubircated. like i said... dont know if anyone mentioned that but im throwing it out there

 

[GTM]

i didnt want to read like 5 pages of text but dry sumps are also used in drag racing applications when the force is great enough to move the oil away from the pump so the engine can be lubircated. like i said... dont know if anyone mentioned that but im throwing it out there

Yes it's unfortunate that the thread got corrupted by some posters who were bent on other goals. I'm not grasping what you are trying to say "move the oil away from the pump"??

I thought we had a couple of people who were going to give us some help but it got to be such a pissing contest they probably lost interet.

Of recent I bought a used small generator 2500w but it won't start a 1hp electric motor much to my dissapointment so I may sell it and buy a generator head and build my own from a motorcycle engine.

This was approached as a DIY project and not intended to substitute for professional equipment for a drag car but reliability and HP gain was the goal.

If I can get the generator to power a proper size electric motor and I do the testing I may ask this thread be closed. I agree having to read through some of this nonsense still has me seeing _red_. I don't like counterproductive arguments that manipulate thread content for some self serving poster trying to impress the readers. If so I will start a new thread where data can be offered to support my premise and the rules of participation are clearly understood so the strife doesn't detract from the goal.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Dauntless]

Greg,

I've just read through all five pages and thought I might be able to lend some support and shed some light on your project, since I have two road race cars with dry sump systems.

1) I like DIY and encourage you to try it, but for those who can't build or who prefer to buy, one can spend about what Greg budgets (several hundred dollars) on eBay and race-cars.com and get the same thing.

2) You speculated that dry sump systems can recover 20% of the engine's hp. My experience is that this is not true. You can recover some hp, maybe 20 hp on an all-out small-displacement racing engine, but what you really gain is reliability at sustained high RPMs and/or high lateral g-loading. YMMV.

3) A couple of folks mentioned that you need 2x scavenging capacity compared to pressure side. Yep, that's the theory, but the reality is that you don't since the pressure side has to fight oil galley restrictions, bearing clearances, filter back pressure, etc. Equal capacity is fine. One of my engines uses a two-stage Cosworth dry sump pump - one scavenge and one pressure. A friend uses this same pump on his 12,500 RPM Formula Atlantic engine. More stages allows more options and can be nice, but isn't required on a basic system.

4) My engines have sat for a few months over the winter and have never had drain back problems - and neither engine has check valves. I'm not saying don't use one...but I've never needed one.

5) Electric pumps won't work. As you've already figured out, there are those which can supply the pressure and those that can supply the volume, but the only one I know of that can do both is a diff pump that maxes out at 30 psi. Probably okay for a commuter car, but nothing more aggressive than that.

6) There are unlimited cheap parts on eBay and other racing sites. Don't use discarded fire extinguishers and such unless you are making cars for the next Mad Max movie. You don't want it to look ghetto, you want it to be cheap...

7) I don't believe you can use a PS pump in a stand-alone application, unless you are going to use the OEM pump like the Grand-Am guys do. But that is a bandaid to meet the rules (I'm not dissing on those guys - its a clever work-around, but it's not ideal.) Here's the problem: a single stage pump (like a PS pump) can't both scavenge the oil out of the sump as well as supply oil to the block at the same time. You will need to have at least a two-stage pump for that. You can use two PS georotors for that, but now you've just replicated a two-stage Cosworth. Nice to know you're in good company, eh?

8) You're right, this isn't a project for a weekend, but don't let thet get you down. I'm a 50-something guy with kids and I perfectly understand your desire to do something with your son. My son getting interested in cars was one of the best things to ever happen to me. Go for it!

Cheers!

 

[Elvenhome21]

Ok GTM is on the right path with the dry sump, how ever he left out some specifics that need to be worked out.

mrmadmax a dry sump should not be ran over 15 inch of vac, nascar is the best example. they have actually proven more loss from running more then 15 inchs, because with so much vac none of the seals get any splash lube and it also creates more friction.

on page 2 at the bottom it explains why
http://www.circletrack.com/techfaq/ctrp_0608_power_in_the_pump/

Back to GTM, the purpose of a dry sump is to get oil where you want it, for instance running one pressure line to the trans side of the head along with valve sprayers to cool the springs. Another area for a pressure line would be in the middle of the block between 2 and 3 cyl to the oil feeds that go to the mains. Most of the time dry sumps use 5 stages 3 scavenge pumps (on a chevy 2 in the pan one in the lifter valley) 1 oil pressure pump, and 1 power steering/fuel pump. Most of the time with dry sumps they dont use the stock oil filter location becuase it can't handle the flow nor is it designed good enough for a racing application. I honestly have ever taken a 4g63 apart to look at the oil routes but I have rebuilt/built plenty of of SBC and Iron Dukes along with working on many dry sump systems.

So the main areas that need to be figured out in this thread are
1. where are the places that need more oil in this engine
2. would running one more stage for a tranny oil pump (of its own seperate oil) be a good route
3. what areas of this engine would benefit from oil cooling (valve springs, turbo)
4. Where should the oil enter the engine
5. What type of pan (welded on sump of stock pan, or full fab
6. racing type specific (drag pans have all scavengers on the intake side of engine, Road racing and Circle track have to worry about all four corners of pan)

Just another note dry sumps normally hold 3.5-4 gallons of oil

BTW I would never use a PS pump, just spend the $3-500 for a used setup and be done with it. You guys are crazy enough to by $4-600 set of cams or intake, or $1200 on a turbo so what the hecks $500 on a good quality dry sump. Without proper oiling system an engine dies. Besides would you really want to pop your hood with some redneck jerry rigged setup that proves your a cheap ass. In the long run a PS setup will most likely cost you just as much as the true drysump. THis project is likely to cost near $5-800 by the time you add the lines and fittings. Those -AN10 fittings are over $20 a piece new and they add up VERY quick.

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[Kevin Johnson]

Ok GTM is on the right path with the dry sump, how ever he left out some specifics that need to be worked out.

mrmadmax a dry sump should not be ran over 15 inch of vac, nascar is the best example. they have actually proven more loss from running more then 15 inchs, because with so much vac none of the seals get any splash lube and it also creates more friction.

on page 2 at the bottom it explains why
http://www.circletrack.com/techfaq/ctrp_0608_power_in_the_pump/

Those numbers were gathered using 15 inches of vacuum. So, using typical racer logic, if a little is a good thing, more should be even better. Why not add several more stages to the pump and pull a greater vacuum, or mount a separate vacuum pump to generate even higher levels of vacuum? While a possibility, the power required to run an additional pump may negate any gains, especially at high engine speeds. The consensus among the engine builders we spoke with was that a level of vacuum greater than 15 inches causes more problems than power. Many were concerned with wristpin bushing failures, due to the oil mist being evacuated from the crankcase. It's just like your mom always said: everything in moderation. The reason they were concerned is that many have tried to run the vacuum levels above the 15-inch level and have experienced failures. They were not postulating on this point-they had an empirical data set from which to draw. The lesson here is to learn from the knowledge of others. These engine builders paid to learn these lessons so that you wouldn't have to.

Some thoughts on the empirical failures. Under vacuum the splash oiling would actually increase, not decrease. Oil is constantly being ejected tangentially and radially from the bearings. Rather than being caught up in a windage cloud the oil is free to travel in a straight or deflected line to wherever.

Wrist pins are typically lubricated by oil gathered by the oil scraper rings and splash lubrication. Since the ejected oil is now traveling in a straight line some reflection reveals that it is proportionately less likely to land on the cylinder wall surfaces that are orthogonal to that path -- and this is exactly the orientation of the piston pin openings. Et voila, failure.

So, time to introduce more splash oiling in a path that is sure to reach the pins from the interior of the piston. This solution is known, simple and cheap. OEM and some aftermarket rods often include channels on the side faces to direct ejected oil towards the thrust bearing bore surface. This is not entirely satisfactory since to reach the pins it must still travel 90 degrees to either side of the bore. The solution is to simply move this slot to be in alignment with the beam of the rod or straight up. In other engines running under atmospheric pressure this technique is used to cool the pistons. The resultant spray will continuously sweep back and forth and coat the pin on both sides of the small end of the rod from where it will migrate to the bushing.

Here is an example of this technique from an old set of Yoshimura Superods. As I said, known and cheap. No need to EDM pressurized oiling passages in rod beams, etc., etc. I am not discounting other issues like diminishing returns but I don't like it when we forget what solutions are already extant, at least for the pin issue.

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BTW, some F1 drysumps have as many as 12 scavenge stages from segregated piston bays.

Kind regards,

Kevin

 

[GTM]

Ok GTM is on the right path with the dry sump, how ever he left out some specifics that need to be worked out.

mrmadmax a dry sump should not be ran over 15 inch of vac, nascar is the best example. they have actually proven more loss from running more then 15 inchs, because with so much vac none of the seals get any splash lube and it also creates more friction.
...
BTW I would never use a PS pump, just spend the $3-500 for a used setup and be done with it.
...
Besides would you really want to pop your hood with some redneck jerry rigged setup that proves your a cheap ass. In the long run a PS setup will most likely cost you just as much as the true drysump. THis project is likely to cost near $5-800 by the time you add the lines and fittings. Those -AN10 fittings are over $20 a piece new and they add up VERY quick.
[/IMG]

This thread was never intended to be absolutes. However, it was to encourage DIY experimentation and research. With data loggers and laptops so common the need for expensive dyno time is greatly reduced when looking for evidence that you have made an improvement. Most certainly your point about seal lube is a concern which has not been addressed but then neither has a thermostat to bypass the oil cooler and other considerations.

I would hands down have more confidence in a used PS pump than a used drysump that may have been a reject or seen one too many races with blown engines. You can buy your own swage kit from eBay and make any fitting you want on the spot, all the fittings can be found at the wrecking yard save for hose and crimps. Showing us a picture of a professional kit detracts from the DIY aspect. This was never intended to be a substitute for someone who has asperations of building a serious race car with multi stage pumps.

Here is a drawing of the factory oil system.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1315254811054248531CUFXFk

In PM you asked about oiling system weakneses, I'm no expert but the early engines had another oil gallery which directed a jet of oil to the underside of the pistons for additional cooling. I don't remember all the details but they had check valves which suffered from sticking and not delivering the correct volume and timed jet of oil needed. You don't want to flood the underside but you have to get it there. This was discontinued in later engines but then the HP also dropped so may not have been needed.
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Off topic for a moment, it's my belief that many of the head gaskets out there are starving the head for adequate coolant circulation. You look at the block and head passages then see a 1/8" bleed hole in the gasket. How can you keep the top of the combustion chamber, valves, guides etc. cool if they are constanly boiling just at the dome surface. but then condense before they reach the thermostat. It's just asking for disaster with galled pistons, I've tried to get answers to pump capacity, tried contacting head gasket makers to learn how they arrive at these tiny hole sizes but to no avail.
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Not everyone has deep pockets, the question is do you sit and do nothing or do what you can afford or become a parts changer... You learn nothing from not trying something, if pretty anodized fittings are your thing then go for it but using highly charged words which may be offensive because your idea of importance is throwing lots of money at a project.

It is my humble opinion that much in our industry has been developed by those who had an idea. You don't design a space shuttle when you don't know how to fly, nay you take a bed sheet, throw some paint on it, stretch across some bamboo and reed sticks tied together with shoe laces. The idea is not to limit one's imagination on how to achieve results based on how pretty it looks.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Kevin Johnson]

... Most certainly your point about seal lube is a concern which has not been addressed but then neither has a thermostat to bypass the oil cooler and other considerations...

I think the issue he is mentioning with seals is that standard engine seals are not designed to work with a vacuum on one side but it is certainly possible to design these. Some builders reverse standard seals.

Nascar engines turn in the neighborhood of 9000rpm. Formula 1 engines turn in the neighborhood of 17000rpm -- nearly double. Windage losses are exponentially related to the speed of the rotating assembly so running higher vacuums can make sense.

Not sure why using an oil thermostat would be a bad idea (??).

 

[Elvenhome21]

there is nothing in a true drysump pump that can't be replaced, I have seen pumps that are 15 years old and have had 5 rebuilds done to them.
Also the picture I posted was someone asked what the inside looked like.
On another note there is no need for a drysump unless if you are constantly racing your engine or its a full race car.
So I truly don't believe that skimping on a oil system (just so you can say you have a drysump) is quite pointless unless if your going to do it right the first time.
Another thing is, if you have a need to run a drysump you are probably going to be running in that 9000 rpm category.
The point you made about 9000 versus 17000 is irrelavent because then you underdrive the pump. Also can a power steering pump even draw enough vaccuum in the first place, must less prime it self.

No I am not one with deep pockets but, I have learned the hard way on skimping on the stuff that should not be skimped on. I mean the stock oil system is fine for moderate racing. if you guys want to mess with vaccuum get a smog pump, but don't mess with the oil system unless your at least going to do it right. Another thing is you can use hydraulic lines and steel AN fittings instead of SS braided line, but the braided line I trust more for oiling. It can rub against something for a long time and wont burst.

 

[Kevin Johnson]

...On another note there is no need for a drysump unless if you are constantly racing your engine or its a full race car.
So I truly don't believe that skimping on a oil system (just so you can say you have a drysump) is quite pointless unless if your going to do it right the first time.
Another thing is, if you have a need to run a drysump you are probably going to be running in that 9000 rpm category.

There are many road cars that run dry sumps stock. It is simply a more expensive, albeit superior, way to go.

The point you made about 9000 versus 17000 is irrelavent because then you underdrive the pump.

It's not irrelevent because even if you underdrive the pump the rotating assembly is still spinning at 17000rpm and that is where and why the vacuum is being drawn in the first place.

It could be irrelevant to discuss 17000 or even 9000 rpm (steady) for a DSM.

 

[Elvenhome21]

I miss read your post I was thinking you meant pump speed. But as far as rpm for a DSM, as soon as i get the valvesprings/retainers I have no problem running it that high 5-9000 RPM, and NASCAR doesn't constantly run 9000 normal range now with the gear rule is 65-9200 rpm. There is no reason why our engines cant turn that once ported out and flow benched. For road coarses such as road america you need that extra RPM to be able to pull out the corner and not have to shift right away.

 

[GTM]

I think the issue he is mentioning with seals is that standard engine seals are not designed to work with a vacuum on one side but it is certainly possible to design these. Some builders reverse standard seals.

Nascar engines turn in the neighborhood of 9000rpm. Formula 1 engines turn in the neighborhood of 17000rpm -- nearly double. Windage losses are exponentially related to the speed of the rotating assembly so running higher vacuums can make sense.

Not sure why using an oil thermostat would be a bad idea (??).

With lip seals now dominating the market the selections have vastly improved thus finding half thickness where you can flip one facing out and the other in would solve the problem. I've seen heat shrink hardened sleeves mounted on the crank so if you get too much wear it doesn't spoil the crank. Llike a double shielded bearing fill the void with grease. Wheel bearings take quite a beating and manage to survive glowing hot rotors.

Yes, a thermostat is desirable yet even those selling "everything included" kits rarely address this. It won't prevent the system from operating but if the oil is not at operating temp then you introduce more friction. If you use the radiator thermostat as a method of controling this it then becomes an issue of having an adequate size to have a proper exchange. You don't see an 18 wheeler with a radiator the size of a heater core, you want more hp you have to cool it. However the point of this is to prevent / recover some frictional losses thus not really adding appreciable cooling system loads.

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I'm not going to get baited with another protracted discussion with the merits of a PS pump from those who never used one for anything other than what came on the car. This thread has suffered / seen too many nay sayers who never made their living for decades with busted knuckles.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Elvenhome21]

Can a power steering pump actually produce sufficent vaccuum on its own. If it can then fine and dandy but you also then have to deal with dropping the pressure and controlling the pressure. Another question is does it have the volume for a oil system. These things all have to be accounted for before someone messes with this.

 

[Kevin Johnson]

... I'm not going to get baited with another protracted discussion with the merits of a PS pump from those who never used one for anything other than what came on the car. This thread has suffered / seen too many nay sayers who never made their living for decades with busted knuckles.

Cheers,
GTM

Well, ok. I am not sure if or why you think I am baiting you? On my homesite I give a hyperlink to GZ Motorsports. They have done part of what you are suggesting here and worked out many of the bugs, one of which is pump life in a daily driver.

If you search the web you will also find many other successful do-it-yourself groups like the ones run by Dick Datson (belt driven turbos -- and belt driven smog pumps as superchargers for small displacement engines among other topics).

I make my living designing and making windage control systems for engines -- I just jump in from time to time if I see something on a thread of interest.

Edit: I should add that builders have found that 5" of vacuum is sufficient to induce the ring sealing benefits. However, to fully gain the benefit there you need to have your ring package optimized for these conditions. Consult a reputable piston/ring manufacturer.

 

[GTM]

Well, ok. I am not sure if or why you think I am baiting you? On my homesite I give a hyperlink to GZ Motorsports. They have done part of what you are suggesting here and worked out many of the bugs, one of which is pump life in a daily driver.

If you search the web you will also find many other successful do-it-yourself groups like the ones run by Dick Datson (belt driven turbos -- and belt driven smog pumps as superchargers for small displacement engines among other topics).

I make my living designing and making windage control systems for engines -- I just jump in from time to time if I see something on a thread of interest.

Edit: I should add that builders have found that 5" of vacuum is sufficient to induce the ring sealing benefits. However, to fully gain the benefit there you need to have your ring package optimized for these conditions. Consult a reputable piston/ring manufacturer.

Sorry, I thought you would have realized that wasn't for you.
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People just don't realize that automotive (and motorcycle) components are usually quite reliable. Why Elvenhome21 would think that a PS pump would be any less reliable than a engine oil pump shows his lack of knowledge. They both have pop-off valves, will self prime if lubed and Just as you can jack the pressure up on one you can reduce it on another. No engine oil pump ever sees a shock load as that of a PS pump.

The nay sayers are those who never do anything outside the box unless it comes with a bar code. The problem is they waste people's time who want to learn.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Elvenhome21]

PS pump would be any less reliable than a engine oil pump shows his lack of knowledge. They both have pop-off valves, will self prime if lubed

I never said anything against reliability of a power steering pump, you were saying you dont trust the relibility of a drysump pump that was a couple years old.
Second you said it yourself "will self prime if lubed" ok so if the PS pump is all your going to use how is it going to scavenge "run dry" and re prime itself or in other word still create a vaccuum. If you are planing on using the stock oil pump what are you gaining by using another oil pump on top of it. If you want a vaccuum in your engine thats fine, get a vaccuum pump. But you dont need a drysump to have a vaccuum. A drysumps soul purpose is for large quantity of oil, none in the pan (road coarse and circle track mainly, oil where you want it, and to create a vaccuum.
Also you guys are going to trust a single vbelt to supply your engine with oil. That is a bad idea and I shouldn't have to explain why.

 

[GTM]

...
Also you guys are going to trust a single vbelt to supply your engine with oil. That is a bad idea and I shouldn't have to explain why.

Much if not all of this has been discussed in previous posts but who want's to read them...

It's still coming across as a Nay Sayer.

I have not excluded any belt type. But your argument doesn't hold water when the multi stage pump is _also_ driven by a belt. SO are the engine oil pump, balance shafts, AND the cams.

It's this constant BS from those who have an ax to grind or have some _other_ motive which has turned me off that anything productive will ever come of this thread. If I had my druthers I'd have all the nonsense pulled and the thread closed.

Rather than trying to demonstrate all the reasons why not and that is what is going on, put on your thinking cap and make it work. I will reply to legit efforts but this is just wasting everyon's time.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Elvenhome21]

I have not excluded any belt type. But your argument doesn't hold water when the multi stage pump is _also_ driven by a belt. SO are the engine oil pump, balance shafts, AND the cams.

I am saying that a V-belt will not work very good if at all. You need some sort of direct drive such as a cog belt. V belts are notorius of jumping off if not alined to near perfect. Cog belts wont jump, plus they are self cleaning, if a little stone gets in there the belt will survive.

I am also not saying it can't be done, but using parts that weren't designed for the intended is n't what i call brain storming. If you want an external single stage pump, like what ford 351W engines runs http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Moro...yZ107066QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Again I am just saying NAY only to a power steering pump, unless someone can prove it can provide enough vaccuum to prime it self from a completely dry state and have enough suction to draw oil through a 2 foot long hose with a 1 foot elevation I am saying no.

A pump such as the one above can be picked up for around $120-150 and is completely capable of drawing enough suction for aleast 8 feet of hose and is able to dry prime and create vaccuum.


You guys also have to deside what your purpose is. Do you want just vaccuum for less windage, or do you actually want to improve on an oiling weakness, or both. If you just want vaccuum there is absolutely no need for this power steering pump idea, just get a smog pump or a vaccuum pump. If you actually found an oiling weakness then yeah there might be a need for a outside pump. But if you want a true DRY SUMP then you need a 3 stage pump.