Dry sump oiling system

[AWDlaserRS]

I don't know why so many of you are saying that this would be so hard to do. I think someone already said this but there is a really simple way to do it. Just take your stock oil pan, trim it down, add some baffles and weld 2 fittings on it. One of these fittings will attach to your stock oil pumps pickup on the inside. Now just attach some oil line going from the oil pump pickup fitting to the bottom of your resevoir tank. Now attach some oil line to the other fitting, this will be your scavenge line. Take an extra PS pump and rig it up in place of the AC compressor (wouldn't be that hard) This will pump the oil into the resevoir. No one has suggested this yet but you could even use a fuel pump for a scavenge pump. I have a small out of a caravan one that can pump a surprising volume and doesn't even make the alternator kick in often (its rigged to plug into the cigarette lighter) You would obviously have to fit in the oil filter somewhere in here too. I dont think you would have to worry about oil cooling because of the larger amount of oil you would use. Im thinking of using this idea with some further research on it on my 6 bolt. So let me know what you think would work and what wouldn't.

 

[MNGSX]

Just search the used parts classifieds at real racing sites. Sprint and circle track cars get parted out all the time. Get a used two stage scavenge only pump setup and make it cheap, easy and done right.

Not that I don't have any experience as to how to actually do it or anything. :laugh:

 

[Enigma_Man]

AWDLaserRS

You're running a critical component off of the cigarette lighter? And what do you mean "doesn't make the alternator kick in often"?

-Jesse

 

[AWDlaserRS]

Originally posted by Enigma_Man
AWDLaserRS

You're running a critical component off of the cigarette lighter? And what do you mean "doesn't make the alternator kick in often"?

-Jesse

No no no, sorry I didn't go into detail. First of all the fuel pump is currently rigged to hook up to the cigarette lighter because it was used to get my friends GS-T home to get it back home when his fuel pump died. We just stuck it in a 5 gallon jug on the passenger floor. I would never use it as an oil pump with it plugged into the cigarette lighter, I would hardwire it first. Second of all about the alternator I don't know why I wrote that, it was late and I know the alternator doesn't "kick" in.
Probly what I was trying to say with minimal words was that it doesn't use alot of power and dousn't strain on your power.

sorry about not going into detail

 

[unior]

Originally posted by AWDlaserRS
No no no, sorry I didn't go into detail. First of all the fuel pump is currently rigged to hook up to the cigarette lighter because it was used to get my friends GS-T home to get it back home when his fuel pump died. We just stuck it in a 5 gallon jug on the passenger floor. I would never use it as an oil pump with it plugged into the cigarette lighter, I would hardwire it first. Second of all about the alternator I don't know why I wrote that, it was late and I know the alternator doesn't "kick" in.
Probly what I was trying to say with minimal words was that it doesn't use alot of power and dousn't strain on your power.

sorry about not going into detail

bwahahah you dunked it in a 5 gallon jug of fuel and plugged it into the cigarette lighter

thats great

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by AWDlaserRS
No one has suggested this yet but you could even use a fuel pump for a scavenge pump. I have a small out of a caravan one that can pump a surprising volume
...
I dont think you would have to worry about oil cooling because of the larger amount of oil you would use. Im thinking of using this idea with some further research on it on my 6 bolt. So let me know what you think would work and what wouldn't.

I would not consider a production line automotive fuel pump to ever be adequate for moving oil. The ports are too small, head pressures too great, and the viscosity drag would burn it up in short order. Your temp fix to get a buddy's car home to save a $125 tow bill was acceptable... been there.
.....................

Someone mentioned the power steering pumps are known to fail when the seals leak. While this is true consider that the seal does not suffer a catastropic failure but is a gradual wear process giving adequate warning by leaking well in advance of failure. Consider the P/S pump moves a lot more oil (hot or cold) and at significantly higher pressures than the Babbit bearing could ever handle if it is being used a the lube oil pump.

Both the original engine pump and the P/S pump have their own relief valves when set max pressure is attained which returns the excess to the inlet. At the oil filter mount there is another overpressuree relief valve which is what usually controls max pressure by dumping excess back into the pan.

The original oil pump has to supply more than adequate oil or you would have engine failure. Thus I see no need to remove it, instead as has been mentioned elsewhere removing the pickup pipe/screen and installing a proper hose to a welded oil pan fitting which connects to the tank would be the straight forward connection. It could be installed through the block so the pan could be removed without having to fight a connection and the excess length needed to allow R&R.

Using the P/S pump as the scavenger my _only_ concern is the air it will constantly be drawing but since it's doing very little work and nominal pressures I would not think this to be a factor.

Oil heating / cooling is an issue and here the TSI has a thermostat which no one ever reports as failing interestingly enough. However, if the temp is too cold then a couple of coils of copper tubing can carry the car heater water to the tank and back to either the heater or a bypass connection for constant flow relative to engine cooling water temp.

What I'm trying to impress here is this is intended as a DIY project based on skill and a desire to build your own system rather than spending hundreds or thousands of dollars $$$$. If you are good at scrounging parts, fittings, etc the pan doesn't need to be cut to achieve success. Using what I've proposed does not require high pressure hose, tubing, or pipe.

Their is 1 more consideration not mentioned and I've save while watching the thread develop. Drain back oil if the dry tank is higher than the crank oil will leak past the pressure pump and out the rods and mains. This will possibly have the crank initially submerged in oil until the scavanger can evacuate the pan which could cause some smoke from the rings not being able to handle the excess oil. My experience has been this clears up within a min from a cold start when the car has sat for hours or days. It also could be a reason to not modify the pan and to be conscious of how large a tank to use. Of course you could have it only 2 quarts but then the same oil will be exposed to break down twice as fast as a 4 quart system. Hence an 8+ quart system would almost double the existing capacity and halve the oil wear and contamination issues.

There is nothing to prevent you from adding an additional inline oil filter after the P/S pump. The tank of course will need a screen for the suction side and would be prudent to have one on the pressure side to reduce air bubbles and froth being kept in suspension.

As for the practicality I see it as _free_ horsepower, rather than adding big injectors, big turbo, mod this mod that to get more hp, increase fuel consumption and heat. This is not model specific except for the pan fittings and baffels which can be plugged and the pickup screen returned to the oil pump, it can be removed in a couple of hours if you sell the car.

I am not an aircraft mechanic nor do I know for certain why they would eliminate dry sump systems. Engine compartments offer little space, running hoses / pipes, tanks into the cockpit probably would not be to the owner's liking. Should you have a problem it's not just a matter of pulling to the side of the road and calling AAA. Modifying anything on an airplane has to be inspected and certified. They have different issues not relevant to automotive applications and DIY mods so while it's interesting to know, it's probably not going to influence how it can be accomplished on a DSM.

Cheers,
GTM

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by NosLaser
GTM,

Apparently you misunderstood what I was saying. That was meant as a compliment. I'll chalk that up to misunderstanding.
Regards,

Yes I did misunderstand and took it to be flip. My apologies for the flip reply.

There are issues, it's not going to just fall into place starting one Sat. morning and have the car running for Monday commute. The oil pan connections and baffeles will take the most time. Finding a location and fabricating a mount for the P/S pump and selecting a belt will be the next time consuming item. Lastly the tank location, plumbing and fittings some of which can be salvaged from air conditioning parts. Certainly if well planned with advance preperation and construction it is feasable if you have everything prepared. Early on I suggested having a spare oil pan to use, having access to another engine for measurments to the pick-up screen and how you elect to make that connection is unknown but the car is out of commission until the pan, pump and tank are installed.

The dipstick becomes useless and oil changes not simply pulling the drain plug for you need to know how much you took out so you don't overfill or under fill. I've seen locking motorcycle gas caps used for tank fill and checking oil level.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by GTM

I am not an aircraft mechanic nor do I know for certain why they would eliminate dry sump systems.

Aircraft are tasked to do things cars cannot. Like fly upside down and have g forces act on them in three dimensions as opposed to mostly only two on a car.

 

[AWDlaserRS]

GTM made a good point, there really is no reason other than saving space to trim the oil pan. Leaving it as is would make it possible to convert back to a wet sump system and eliminate problems at startup.

I just had a good idea for a resevoir I guess Ill toss out there. I think a fire extinguisher would make a great resevoir. Not the little ones, Im talking about the ones that are in schools, they would probably hold a good 10 quarts of oil and they are ruggedly built. You would just have to weld some fittings onto it.

 

[MNGSX]

One solenoid actuated valve and the startup problems are over no matter what pan.

Also their really is'nt enough pressure from the tank to flow in that much anyway.

It would have to flow in the pressure pumps inlet... possible... past the pump... possible but with resistance, thru the tinming cover, thru the oil cooler and filter an finally back into the oil galleys then thru the mains with no real pressure left behind it to push it thru a tight tolerance like a main or an oil squirter...

In other words. It won't be a problem.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by MNGSX
Aircraft are tasked to do things cars cannot. Like fly upside down and have g forces act on them in three dimensions as opposed to mostly only two on a car.

I don't want to get too far afield with this but the side load, acceleration, and deceleration would not equal what is available in a performance car such as a DSM Again not being an expert but other than vertical climb or decent most small aircraft (other than specialty designed stunt planes) are not designed for those G-force loads. I would venture to say that they won't like having a gallon or two of oil suddenly thrown at 2 or 3 pistons if it's an opposed 4 or 6 clyr engine Further, I would suspect the stunt planes would be running a dry sump system where the reliability is critical while performing in competitions where they are on a "knife edge" for prolonged periods. I don't know how many current production cars are running a dry sump but I think the hot new Bentley is one and Rolls Royce has been building aircraft engines before I was born.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by AWDlaserRS
GTM made a good point,
...
I just had a good idea for a resevoir I guess Ill toss out there. I think a fire extinguisher would make a great resevoir. Not the little ones, Im talking about the ones that are in schools, they would probably hold a good 10 quarts of oil and they are ruggedly built. You would just have to weld some fittings onto it.

I would hope there was more than 1 good point...

There are several good possibilities for sump tanks including the soda / acid fire extinguishers. There are stainless steel syrup despenser, carbonated soda water used in the automated bar equipment which have caught my eye. I don't know if the outboard boating industry has switched to all plastic gas tanks but they use to be metal. My venture uses a "V" shaped 6.5 gallon gas tank which mounts inside the frame forward of the rear tire, and would tuck away in some corner quite well. They make 2 gallon propane tanks in different shapes. Of course there are the professional tanks made just for this application. It's just a matter of looking at something and thinking this would lend it's self to my application.

...............................

Originally posted by MNGSX

...
thru the tinming cover, thru the oil cooler and filter an finally back into the oil galleys then thru the mains with no real pressure left behind it to push it thru a tight tolerance like a main or an oil squirter...

In other words. It won't be a problem.

Right off the top of my head Lotus 19, 23B, Coventry Climax, and English Ford push rod engines all had problems with oil draining back into the crankcase.

In the DSM the oil does not pass through the oil cooler until the thermostat opens and even then it's not a full flow. If what you say is true that it doesn't happen then why does it take some seconds to build pressure when first started even with a conventional system if it hasn't all drained back into the pan. Let you car sit overnight and pull the oil filter ... hmmmm it's not pouring out of the gallery nor the filter. There ain't no if and but's about it, it will drain through the system. I would not trust my oil system to an electronic solenoid valve. When it becomes a problem the common fix is to install a lever ball valve which you must remember to turn on or pay the price for stupidity. Needless to say I've been down this path more than once, the only difference is my proposal to use a P/S pump rather than some expensive piece of equipment that probably won't function as well as the P/S pump. With P/S pumps a dime a dozen in wrecking yards these days it seems a realistic cost effective approach for DIY.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[hose101772]

I still say stacking multiple pumps on the factory pump would be the easy way.Could use the rear balance shaft bearing hole as a support.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by GTM



Right off the top of my head Lotus 19, 23B, Coventry Climax, and English Ford push rod engines all had problems with oil draining back into the crankcase.

In the DSM the oil does not pass through the oil cooler until the thermostat opens and even then it's not a full flow. If what you say is true that it doesn't happen then why does it take some seconds to build pressure when first started even with a conventional system if it hasn't all drained back into the pan. Let you car sit overnight and pull the oil filter ... hmmmm it's not pouring out of the gallery nor the filter. There ain't no if and but's about it, it will drain through the system. I would not trust my oil system to an electronic solenoid valve. When it becomes a problem the common fix is to install a lever ball valve which you must remember to turn on or pay the price for stupidity. Needless to say I've been down this path more than once, the only difference is my proposal to use a P/S pump rather than some expensive piece of equipment that probably won't function as well as the P/S pump. With P/S pumps a dime a dozen in wrecking yards these days it seems a realistic cost effective approach for DIY.

Cheers,
GTM

I pretty certain that when the oil drains back on a stock sump it mostly drains backwards thru the oil pump and out the pickup. It will follow the path of least resistance. There is less resistance going out the pickup than a main bearing clearance.

Since on a dry sump we are talking about a tank above this point connected with a hose in place of the pickup it cannot drain backwards thru the oilpump.

It will also not have the same delay to pressure on startup as this mostly comes from repriming the pump system. The head pressure from the oil tank keeps the pump inlet primed. It's not enough pressure to push oil thru the block with stationary oil pump gears. It will have a slight pressure at the oil pump inlet as opposed to a vaccum.

The main point about the dry sump system not filling an oil pan on shutdown is that it would take more pressure than just the tank produces on it's own to go thru the system the hard way.. Forward. Also that the easy way is'nt so easy any more since it can't flow up the tank hose.

 

[babell2]

With Aircraft dry sump systems they have problems with the oil draining into the engine from bad check valves in scavenge pumps and leak through the pressure pumps. Rule of thumb is to check the oil when you shut the engine down so the oil is in the tank not the engine. If you haven’t idle run the engine for 3-5 minuets to pump the oil back into the tank for an accurate check.

 

[AWDlaserRS]

Does anyone know what kind of gains one could expect on a DSM with a dry sump system? Ive heard of gains of around 30 HP on some custom dry sumped cars. I have everything I need to fabricate a 2 stage system and a 6 bolt engine that will be going in my laser.


Another topic that has not been brought up that fits in with this topic: Anyone ever heard of knife edging your crankshaft? Basically the crank gets a beveled edge and is then re balanced, it helps it cut through any oil it encounters with less resistance.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by babell2
With Aircraft dry sump systems they have problems with the oil draining into the engine from bad check valves in scavenge pumps and leak through the pressure pumps. Rule of thumb is to check the oil when you shut the engine down so the oil is in the tank not the engine. If you haven’t idle run the engine for 3-5 minuets to pump the oil back into the tank for an accurate check.

two points

1. Bad scavenge side check valve.
2. Pump leak throught.

Solution

1. New HQ scavenge pump.
2. New cover and pump gears.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by MNGSX
I pretty certain
...

Rather than urban legends with guesses pull the oil pressure sending unit, attach a quart of oil with hose attached suspended above engine and see how much, where, and how long it takes since you don't want to accept what my 40 years as a professional have taught me. I don't deal in guess work, I brought up known issues that cannot be dismissed so Please don't keep telling me / us and those interested that it's not going to happen, I gave citation and that wasn't acceptable. You have stated your opinion without any obvious proof to support your position so lets move on for I'm not going to nit-pick this to death and corrupt the thread while you try to upstage me.

..................................

Originally posted by AWDlaserRS
Does anyone know what kind of gains one could expect on a DSM with a dry sump system? Ive heard of gains of around 30 HP on some custom dry sumped cars. I have everything I need to fabricate a 2 stage system and a 6 bolt engine that will be going in my laser.

Another topic that has not been brought up that fits in with this topic: Anyone ever heard of knife edging your crankshaft? Basically the crank gets a beveled edge and is then re balanced, it helps it cut through any oil it encounters with less resistance.

I have not seen any specific data for DSMs, only what has been represented through various credible sources which have stated 30-35 hp gain, another contributor to the thread cided 1 report of 41 hp gain. Just think of the gains if you can recover this additional load and put to the wheels rather than taxing the engine to get another 30-40 hp.
............

Yes I'm familiar with grinding a knife edge, if you are thinking to do some of the work might be prudent to experiment with a garbage crank first. Weigh the crank so you know what you have, if just working on the counter-balance sections you will need to remove equal from the rods and pistons or go to specialized rods and pistons. Your biggest problem will be finding a scale which will measure grams as you remove from 1 throw so you can then compare the weight with the associated rod and piston. You have to repeat this for each cylinder if you are to not have uneven whip and vibration. If you had access to a lathe you can remove more metal faster than grinding and a lot easier to sweep up the cuttings and weigh them. It's not something you just decide to do out of boredom one afternoon, gather the info from reputable sources for it's involved and you don't want some butcher spoiling a $600 crank.

Some community colleges still have machine shop adult education night school where you can then use big machinery for making short work of your project if you don't want to pay the full pop at a specialized shop. My wife even took a class with me many years ago and made some useful items. You might have to buy or make your own specialized cutters for they don't keep a lot of carbide tipped anythings around (get dropped and chipped or dull and they don't know how to sharpen). One of the most useful will be those made for machining brake rotors and drums with a replacable tip which you can rotate to expose a fresh cut as the tool gets dull... $25-$40??

Cheers,
Gene

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by GTM
Rather than urban legends with guesses pull the oil pressure sending unit, attach a quart of oil with hose attached suspended above engine and see how much, where, and how long it takes since you don't want to accept what my 40 years as a professional have taught me. I don't deal in guess work, I brought up known issues that cannot be dismissed so Please don't keep telling me / us and those interested that it's not going to happen, I gave citation and that wasn't acceptable. You have stated your opinion without any obvious proof to support your position so lets move on for I'm not going to nit-pick this to death and corrupt the thread while you try to upstage me.


Cheers,
Gene

I'm not trying to upstage you at all. I just can't see how a dry sump could possibly drain back the same way as a wet sump. It probably will drain back into the pan in some degree but I KNOW for a fact that it does'nt do it in the same way.

As for connecting the hose and oil to the pressure sending unit port... Are we talking about a wet sump with a standard pump and pickup or a dry sump?

This is also a test that should be best performed with the oil pan removed to verify exactly where it is draining back from. Are the galleys bleeding out the bearing oiling ports or just backwards thru the pump.

Since the galleys are well above the pressure sender port the oil will only have the option of backflowing thru the pump on a wet sump. On a dry sump should external sump pressure be great enough or pump leakage high enough may actually prevent any oil from leaving the bottle or even topping the bottle off.

I know on a dry sump it is'nt going to backflow thru the pump since the pressure of the external sump will if anything flow the other direction.

In which case a ball valve or other device will be needed to prevent the external sump from bleeding by the pump and thru the galleys. I know a 5-8 qt oil resivoir mounted above the pump and connected to the inlet will not see oil climbing back up the hose on shut down. It can only flow thru the pump in varing degrees (pump tolerances) and out the galleys.

There are some solenoid valves I'd definately trust to do it. It is'nt some POS component either. On heavy equipment solenoid actuated valves often see pressures and and volumes of hydraulic fluid that are exponentially greater than any oil system. I have seen many function flawlessly for decades. It is really a solenoid which actuates a spool valve.

 

[oldnewschool]

i think its great to hear some you guys talking about installing a dry- sump system.

as for experience i've a built a couple of pretty good racercars road racing and drag wise.

I highly disreguard you from using a P/S pump in you setup for the first of all you haven't taking into account the different tyupes of fluid there.
LUBRICATING ( ENGINE OIL) VS HYRADULIC FLUID ( P/S FLUID) and the different characteristics of the two and the differences needed in the pumps for those fluids.

If you ran engine oil through the P/S one you would over pressurize it and creating foaming and airiation of the fluid this could force air into the bearing area were oil needs to be / plus any remnants of p/s fluid in a pump eats babbit type bearings and standard rubber engine seals. Also the fluids have completely different vicous properties running engine oil through a P/S pump would literally blow out the seals in that pump also because of viscous properties.

As far as recommending the home built setup for you GTM the two stage pump setup laid out by the grand am road racing gentlemen would certainly suit your needs as far as using your setup for the street and or road racing.

There is also one more danger that is possible here if airiate the oil and pressurize actually compress it to high degree you'll get what happens to desiel fuel during the combustion porcess --- (ignition) explosion by compression. Not to mention that oil and oxygen don't like each other if you force them together also any actual fuel the has blown by any seals added the oil is added to that equation. This is an extreme scenario, but possible.

now as for oil drainback with dry sump systems, yeah it happens at very slow rate, but to cure the porblem you prime the pump for a short while before engine starting. Since the pump is usually externally driven we would spin the oil pump with a cordless electric drill to prelube the system and use a nitrous type heat blank to preheat the oil tank. So that you just hammer on the car from get go and don't have to wait for the oil to come up to temp.

In Drag racing preheating the oils is an advantage since you 'll have a cooler motor to make that extra few hp to win- also in road racing it saves you from intial engine bearing damage.

As far as running the high oil pressures that this type of system 90 to 100 psi or so i recommend it the long use of a street engine needed could cause premature bearing wear. If you can set up the system to run the oil pressure in the 50 to 80 psi range linearly to the engine rpm would be best for a street car.

the best street results usually come from this - have the crank knife edged to cut thru the oil - usually a good engine builder in you area can do this for a reasonable price about $200 dollars-- next find a crankscrapper and windage tray for you oil pan or make some. then create baffles for the oil pan so that you can keep oil near the pickup at all times. Or you can do a floating pickup which is neat -- basically its a swivel pickup that is mounted to oil pan and uses a -AN type hose the can move with the pickup.

Steff's is a custom fab company that may be able to help with custom pan setup.

this type of setup will bring you into within 5-10% of benefits a dry sump system will gain you.

ONE THING that no one has pointed out that makes a huge drivablity gain is engine vacuum. Creating an internal engine speaks volumes more than you think simply because of the ability to accel and decel of engine is greatly increased so you can move through your rpm band faster plus it aslo create power. A dry- sump system or a some sort of exhaust scavenge type system or a modified smog pump works great.

As far as the total eqaution here time * money* energy= result

that is totally up to you and your ability to gather resources.
the dry sump sys would be neat and I say go for it. Though thanks to the transfer case you can't take adavntage of the possbile lower center of gravity. Like i said the guy that does the grand-am road racing corvette has the best setup for you and like he said dirt trackers ans sprint racers used parts will be you best resource for finding the correct pump, as for hoses Earl's makes their blue series hose not the stainless lines are cheap and very efficent hoses - also the are plenty of spare oil tanks laying around race shops that you could use. Just keep in mind where the hose routing goes and keep away from exhaust.

One more neat thing is you seem to have access to old airplane parts is look for used tittanium panels in old planes they make excellent heat shielding or composite panels.

Have Fun
Andy

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by oldnewschool
i think its great to hear some you guys talking about installing a dry- sump system.
...

I highly disreguard you from using a P/S pump in you setup for the first of all you haven't taking into account the different tyupes of fluid there.
LUBRICATING ( ENGINE OIL) VS HYRADULIC FLUID ( P/S FLUID) and the different characteristics of the two and the differences needed in the pumps for those fluids.

If you ran engine oil through the P/S one you would over pressurize it and creating foaming and airiation of the fluid this could force air into the bearing area were oil needs to be / plus any remnants of p/s fluid in a pump eats babbit type bearings and standard rubber engine seals. Also the fluids have completely different vicous properties running engine oil through a P/S pump would literally blow out the seals in that pump also because of viscous properties.

The thread was initiated in the interest of DIY, P/S pumps are designed for extreme operating conditions and significantly more robust than the engine driven pump. The lip seals should handle engine oil, hydraulic oil, and ATF. The worst case would be a gradual loss of seal integrity. My proposal has always been to use the existing pump for oil pressure and the P/S pump as the scavenger. As with _ANY_ scavenger pump it will ingest air and it is incumbent on the designer / fabricator to eliminate that inherent problem. This is NOT unique to a P/S pump being used for this application so why use that as a springboard to disuade people from trying... Had you read the other posts should someone wish to use a P/S pump as a pressure pump relief springs would have to be changed. Other than seal issues and I have not pulled a DSM P/S pump apart, they are probably using a spring load ceramic / metal on the pressure side and other than acid etch would not leak whether they were using water soluable oil, gasoline, etc, the low pressure seal could be affected but as I keep repeating not a catastrophic failure.

We are talking 5¢ - 10¢ on the $ for a pump which will work, the rest of the equipment will be as inexpensive or expensive as a person has skill. Remember this is DIY so suggesting buying some ready made baffle where one size fits all tells me you are not into simple sheet metal fabrication whereby you can have a superior windage tray. Installing a smog pump to pull a vacuum on the crankcase would be more than likely an overkill especially if not regulated, could be harmful for a street machine. My _guess_ is the P/S pump will be more than adequate but should that prove to be incorrect it could be added later with adequate design so as to not suction all the oil vapors without returning them for recovery.

The bottom line as stated before is this, the P/S pump has millions of hours of R&D over some pretty gold, blue, or red anodized over priced piece of "racing" equipment at over inflated prices being marketed as the only solution when it's NOT. I have yet to see one valid reason based on knowledge why a P/S pump cannot be used, find some proof, do the R&D. Chill the oil with dry ice, set it ablaze and then tell me and everyone else it won't work, but citing what appears to be limited to what you see at the drag strip just isn't in the DIY scope... well I didn't see it there thus it can't be valid means of accomplishing the task. As for developing sufficient pressure to atomize the engine oil and relate it to that of a diesel running 1500-2000psi injector nozzles is pure fantasy. If I did not think that it was a reliable and rock solid I'd have my neck in a noose for contributing to someone's engine failure and that hasn't happened in the 20-30k cars I've worked on in my life time. If you are not interested in doing it, not a problem, but don't offer _uninformed_ speculation as proof when it's obvious you never put a P/S pump to a test with an electric motor on a bench and pumped thousands of gallons of drain oil as part of design testing. This is just not advancing anything remotely productive when I read replies like this.
Cheers,
GTM

 

[oldnewschool]

GTM,

i don't know what to tell you here. If i came across as trying to insult you I aplogize nor do i choose to start a flame war here. I have REAL ROAD RACING experience , fabrication , teaching, actual drag racing, seen how engineering is related across a broad scope of industries and things i say are not something i have just seen at a track. I have worked with several factory engineers on fixing problems that go beyond regular diagnostics and troubleshooting.

It seems to me though, that anyone who contradicts at any point you attack and try to discredit them rather conduct a discussion.

So in intrest of having a discusion that will help someone build a good home built system here.

What kind of pump pressure is required? What type of pump is this power steering unit vane, gear, rotor or gear & crescent? I fit is a vane type pump how do you reduce pressure since these types are specifically built for high pressure applications?
What size lines are going to be needed for the return and pressure side of this system?
How to vent to keep from overpressurizing the system?
What RPM and gear or pulley reduction is needed to safely operate a P/S all the way through the max 6000 to 9000 rpm limit that the dsm motors can operate too?
IF you're telling people to machine part s at local community college then why would a used 50 to 100 dollar two stage pump modified for racing, but originally designed and built for industrial and aviation applications be too much for a DIY?

Also if you 've been in the desiel / automotive industry for longtime and never seen a desiel engine run from sucking oil through leaking seals without atomizing the oil, I'm amazed.

Andy

 

[unior]

Originally posted by oldnewschool
GTM,


Also if you 've been in the desiel / automotive industry for longtime and never seen a desiel engine run from sucking oil through leaking seals without atomizing the oil, I'm amazed.

Andy

haha yeah I work at a trucking company and we had a turbo go bad on one last summer

the truck started to overrev so the driver (my boss) tried to jam it into a high gear and stall it quick - well he accidently switches the high/low range button and jams it into a low gear

that particular engine made about 1400ft bls of torque at 1500rpm - needless to say he twisted off the driveshaft and the motor blew anyway

 

[i550]

An option for you guys is to contact Brent Rau at OSOFAST Racing. He's was / is running the dry sump system on a 4g63 so I'm sure he could give some good info if you catch him at the right time.

MNGSX - you're nice and close why don't you swing by his place and get some info out of him?

Sounds like this is the company that helped him with his system. Peterson Fluid Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

You also see dry sump components for the 4g63 show up on ebay from time to time. Someone out of Europe offers used Ralli-Art oil pans and a front cover component for the 4g engine.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by oldnewschool

...
So in intrest of having a discusion that will help someone build a good home built system here.
...
Also if you 've been in the desiel /

You can read my life history by clicking on the GTM. Your opening was to not use a P/S pump but no concrete information supporting why... this comes under the heading of hit and run. All of your questions either reflect a lack of knowledge of the P/S working environment on a DSM or they are intended as bait for some errant goal. I'm not going down this counterproductive path of posturing.

Why even bring up _diesel_ engines when there is no relationship to the thread or DSMs... There exists _no_ such enviroment in what is being proposed yet it generates another off topic post while it appears the intent is to corrupt the thread. And yes I have had a diesel _start_ to run away but that belongs elsewhere and not this subject thread.

I will be happy to answer any legit question within the scope of my knowledge and as it pertains to this thread but _not_ when it's loaded with suspect intent. If you don't know the answers to all your questions then how is it you are acting so combative... I've paid my dues a long time ago, I've been honored by being asked to be a DSM Wiseman and as such have a responsibility of conduct to DSMtuners. The single greatest complaint of all those who carry this title is that of other members who have some hidden agenda or ax to grind and desire to challenge rather than arriving at a solution to the task at hand.

Wouldn't it be better to contribute so the information learned here could be reduced into an article whereby your name exists as co-author rather than what has been offed? People who read this thread don't want to see skirmishes and the thread _will_ be abandoned when there is more to be discussed.

Again I use the word PLEASE lets not go off on tangents which include sizing someone up. I am not a moderator, don't wish to be, it is within their authority to close a thread when it ceases to be productive or remove posts which do not contribute and only generate counterproductive thread content. If you want to take me to task then do so elsewhere in a more approriate forum where others are not subjected to these skirmishes. I can remove / edit this post if you are able to demonstrate you want to sincerely contribute even in a devil's advocate role is acceptable as long as it is understood by all who read that is the intent. Without meaning to be flip it would be helpful to see what had been written and realized I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. When it can be said that you know more than any 5 Wisemen on this board with more real world experience we wouldn't be having this subverted discussion.
................
The information I seek which would be helpful is _besides_ removing the A/C compressor where else could this be mounted and kept close to the crank pulley and close to the designed oil level? Someplace exists the number of ft. lbs of torque which can safely be taken from the front of the engine without overloading crank and 1st main bearing. I seriously doubt this would significantly tax that finite number since the A/C compressor is a sob when it comes to excessive crank loads as it approaches 400psi blasting down the freeway at 90mph on a hot summer day and the clutch kicks in.

Cheers,
GTM