Dry sump oiling system

[GTM]

I am saying that a V-belt will not work very good if at all. You need some sort of direct drive such as a cog belt. V belts are notorius of jumping off if not alined to near perfect. Cog belts wont jump, plus they are self cleaning, if a little stone gets in there the belt will survive.
...
Again I am just saying NAY only to a power steering pump, unless someone can prove it can provide enough vaccuum to prime it self from a completely dry state and have enough suction to draw oil through a 2 foot long hose with a 1 foot elevation I am saying no.

Read my lips, I've been a professional mechanic since the mid '60s. You just keep digging a hole showing you are out of your league... notorious but the auto industry relied on them for 75 years. Before cogged belts superchargers were either gear or V-belt driven.

No professional would ever put an oil pump of any kind in an engine dry and then make stupid remarks like that. As a retired NIASE Master Mechanic and still current SAE member what credibility would I have if I didn't know what the blazes I'm talking about. I don't get paid to teach you how to read or be a mechanic.

Start your own thread where you can impress someone who doesn't know any better, but before you start posturing know who you are trying to impress. You could have looked at my info on this site and realized you _ain't_ fooling me. The fact is you have done nothing for this thread except show how little you know. As tech inspector with SCCA for 5 years something tells me I've seen a few thousand more dry sump systems than most on this site.

Don't quit your day job and don't pretend to be something you are not. Did you read the guidelines for this heading? Sometimes I think it should be made read only until demostration of competency has been established. Half of this thread could be deleted without loosing anything, it's the contentious posters with suspect motives and little more than hearsay who have spoiled it for the DIY interests. Roll up your sleeves and do something but don't keep coming back to this thread and expect my social graces to be stellar.

GTM

 

[Kevin Johnson]

GTM,

Over on the Engineering Tips forum http://www.eng-tips.com there a few posts about how to determine flow rates for pumps, geroter and otherwise.

[email protected] is active and has a lot of very knowledgable do-it-yourself types on it. I would not be surprised if someone there has already tried this.

HTH,

Kevin

 

[GTM]

GTM,

Over on the Engineering Tips forum http://www.eng-tips.com there a few posts about how to determine flow rates for pumps, geroter and otherwise.

[email protected] is active and has a lot of very knowledgable do-it-yourself types on it. I would not be surprised if someone there has already tried this.
Kevin

Thanks Kevin for putting that info up. As I recall Oberdorfer and Vickers both had good articles on their sites. Last time I needed something it couldn't be found on either site, you had to look at individual pump selections to get the full data sheet. Before the Internet and BBSes you looked it up in things like the Machinist Handbook but was more at design and metallurgy for different applications. If you weren't affluent enough to own the right copy a trip to the LIBRARY. I've used PS pumps for my own power press, hydraulic jacks, anchor winchs and gypsy and was going to convert my halyard and sheet winches before we made our circumnavigation so my wife could handle the boat.

When I originally thought of this windage was never in anyone's vocabulary. What convinced me of the importance was running in an engine after a rebuild which required 6-7 hours with an electric motor belted to the crank and the plugs out. This was before switching vocation for avocation and the manual failed to mention the incredible amount of oil the crank would sling at 1000 rpm. I think it took me 2 hours to clean up the mess for I had the pan off and hose in place of the pickup screen. You learn best when you make mistakes, it's like chess for if you can't think 7 moves ahead expect something serious to happen. I ended up taping cardboard to the block which then kept it under control and I could still monitor the motive parts.

Lets face it, DIY is not for everyone and neither is a college degree but you won't learn how to change spark plugs by looking at billboards and hyped up sump pump site that offer Allen "nuts". ;-)

Cheers,
GTM

 

[groundPork]

Couple things...

I am going to side with some in this thread on the issue of belt design , and reliability of the pump itself. if for nothing else... to help you come up with a better solution, as we in the automotive industry try to do. I'll just name the points see as major.

A V-belt is designed to have maximum surface area and grip for a given size, but formost slip when necessary. I strongly feel, if the engine is turning, the damn oil pump best be making what oil pressure it can. And I feel this is why most modern oil pumps in production cars are driven as direct off the crank snout as possible. Not that a pressurized oil pump can save everything in a blown up engine, but for those instances where something small but significant happens, it can be a wallet saver.

I agree a cog belt i the most direct belt system to drive the pump and will be likely to help generate consistant oil pressure throughout the rpm band or every serious drag racer out there with one, wouldn't have em.

I really feel that for the DIY "daily driven" (you'll notice enphasis on daily driven). A true dry sump is not practical, nor feasable. NOw, since I don't want to crush the thread I'll offer a possible alternative..

I don't care what anyone says, all of our engines run very low tension rings (this is good, this is the first part of the whole system). I propose we incrporate several components into the system to control not only windage but, internal crankcase pressure.

A crank scraper, exhaust evac or "pan -a-vac" , a catch tank for the ex evaac, and a return system for th e evaac system. the goal being to pull vacuum at high engine speed where it was needed, and avoid any possible oil draw into the exhaust. If it did it would dump into the catch can, and recirculate via some check valves (when reaching a set vacuum siingal). The suction nozzels could be placed oppostie the sscraper side of the crank to avoid sucking oil. THIS IS NOT A DRY SUMP. it is a good alternative, that I feel will provide a significant amount of the benefits, with none of the compromise. If you really wanna know what the implications are, hook a vacuum gauge to the block, and log the signal. it can b done.

 

[Dauntless]

Does anyone know of a source for 4g63 dry sump pans? I have everything else needed for the job, but haven't located a pan. TIA!

 

[Elvenhome21]

I highly doubt anyone makes a drysump pan for these engines or at least be able to find a part number, You could call moroso and have a custom pan made up to your specs. Or take a stock pan and modify it yourself to fit your needs.

 

[GTM]

Couple things...

I am going to side with some in this thread on the issue of belt design , and reliability of the pump itself. if for nothing else... to help you come up with a better solution, as we in the automotive industry try to do. I'll just name the points see as major.

A V-belt is designed to have maximum surface area and grip for a given size, but formost slip when necessary. I strongly feel, if the engine is turning, the damn oil pump best be making what oil pressure it can. And I feel this is why most modern oil pumps in production cars are driven as direct off the crank snout as possible. Not that a pressurized oil pump can save everything in a blown up engine, but for those instances where something small but significant happens, it can be a wallet saver.

I don't know where you people are coming up with statements like "formost slip" for V belts which I consider to be nonsense. Many years ago a 400+ ci Ford V-8 I had with a oil pump drive shaft 18" long the diameter of a pencil. An oil ring lock tab broke off, got through the screen and lodged in the pump and froze it, the drive wound up like a screw until it got so short it pulled out of the pump. It's being implied V-belts are not able to handle the demands, to this I say fooey. Consider an A/C compressor on a hot day can be running 300-400psi head pressure, the clutch cycles off while the engine is turning 5,000 rpm and then turns right back on. If you look at the shaft it's frequently close to 1" diameter but nothing breaks and the belt doesn't slip. It's possible to do the math and calculate the demand but consider it's around 5 HP which is probably 20x that of the shaft driven internal oil pump.

The argument against V-belts won't fly, nobody is suggesting using a belt that is too small to handle the load, no doubt a cog belt would be less friction but not a must. Please people stick with factual statements and not that of some unqualified opinion, drag racers didn't always have cogged belts for oil pumps or superchargers. Using the exhaust air stream in a venturi to extract any meaningful vacuum is just folly, they didn't develop smog pumps because they wanted to sell you a vacuum pump when they could have used a venturi in the exhaust. If you have a car with air injected exhaust pull a pipe off and reve the engine to see what vacuum you can achieve. Until you have been there and done that then speak with authority rather than endorsing something someone want's to sell. Some many posts back a member was suggesting using an electric motor driven oil pump, for the life of me the logic behind that escapes me.

Just as can be said that college isn't for everyone, DIY dry sump system isn't either. However, a few owners who are interested in doing something should not be bullied into thinking it's something they can NOT do by offering unqualified opinions.
...............

I don't think a manufactured oil pan is a must, getting a spare from a Pick Your Part type wrecking yard for $15-$20 to use for establishing where fittings and windage baffels should go makes the most sense. Do consider the crank throws will intrude into the pan space so these calculations must be established. I do recall seeing a dry sump pan listing for a DSM but costs were $300-$450 if memory serves.

Cheers,
GTM