1G Couple noob-tastic 5 spd questions

[CrackedDSM]

Hey guys, gonna get right into it.


1) why is it bad if you’re missing the dowels for the bolts on a 1G awd 5spd trans? I keep hearing “it’s bad” and “causes clutch issues” but what kind of issues exactly?

2) What’s the risk in using arp bolts with no spacer on an act flywheel? I’ve read they’re too long and it’s bad but again, no exact reason why?



That’s pretty much it. Thanks for the help!

 

[pauleyman]

I'm speculating. Bolts are not precision and they need play for you to put the bolt through a hole. So bolts are not used for locating. Dowels are. They are precision and the holes are not loose like a through bolt hole. It's the dowels that centers things up. Otherwise the input shaft isn't concentric with the centerine of the crank/clutch/flywheel etc.

 

[Stapl3]

Agreed they keep the bellhousing perfectly clocked in orientation to the block as designed. Back and forth slop of even a hair would have create play that may work up to a clunk, may mess with starter to flywheel relationship, put strain on the motor mount(s). The bolts holding the housing to the block would probably work loose too over time. ETC.

If you need the pins I have some new ones here and will send them to you free.

As for the flywheel bolts being too long, meaning they're bottoming out in the crank, it wouldn't apply the torqued pressure wanted between the plate and crank, rather the bolt bottom and crank. If it's just a hair too long you may not notice and while you torqued to 120 or whatever and the flywheel feels firm, maybe it only got to 30. Exaggerate the situation and say the bolts are half inch too long. Torque them down all you want and the flywheel would be super floppy loose. I suspect but am talking out of my ass that they are just a split hair too long causing false readings while appearing to be snug and correct.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Agreed they keep the bellhousing perfectly clocked in orientation to the block as designed. Back and forth slop of even a hair would have create play that may work up to a clunk, may mess with starter to flywheel relationship, put strain on the motor mount(s). The bolts holding the housing to the block would probably work loose too over time. ETC.

If you need the pins I have some new ones here and will send them to you free.

As for the flywheel bolts being too long, meaning they're bottoming out in the crank, it wouldn't apply the torqued pressure wanted between the plate and crank, rather the bolt bottom and crank. If it's just a hair too long you may not notice and while you torqued to 120 or whatever and the flywheel feels firm, maybe it only got to 30. Exaggerate the situation and say the bolts are half inch too long. Torque them down all you want and the flywheel would be super floppy loose. I suspect but am talking out of my ass that they are just a split hair too long causing false readings while appearing to be snug and correct.

Thankfully an alpha Chad sent me some brand new ones free, but I was missing one (the one closest to the firewall) when I removed the transmission.

Soon as I get free time I’m gonna check the flywheel and see if it moves or see how tight the flywheel bolts are. They’re the ARP flywheel bolts, which Tim Z and others say are too long but I have no idea how much longer they are.

 

[Stapl3]

Thankfully an alpha Chad sent me some brand new ones free, but I was missing one (the one closest to the firewall) when I removed the transmission.

Soon as I get free time I’m gonna check the flywheel and see if it moves or see how tight the flywheel bolts are. They’re the ARP flywheel bolts, which Tim Z and others say are too long but I have no idea how much longer they are.

Again, I fear it may torque down some of the way but not all of the way. You grabbing the flywheel when it's torqued down 20lb or 120lb will never know the difference.

If you're told by vets to use a washer, do so. Personally I'm not a fan of that and the stock bolts have never done me wrong.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Again, I fear it may torque down some of the way but not all of the way. You grabbing the flywheel when it's torqued down 20lb or 120lb will never know the difference.

If you're told by vets to use a washer, do so. Personally I'm not a fan of that and the stock bolts have never done me wrong.

The research I found said you needed the automatic “spacer” for ARP flywheel bolts on a Fidanza flywheel, but on an act flywheel the stock bolts are recommended.

OEM bolts are on order as of now just in case. I didn’t install this flywheel but definitely gonna rectify it.

 

[Stapl3]

I have only used stock flywheels or ACT flywheels, both only with OEM used bolts and zero issue there. Just be sure to have them clean, use thread locker, and torque in proper pattern.

 

[DSMPT]

2) What’s the risk in using arp bolts with no spacer on an act flywheel? I’ve read they’re too long and it’s bad but again, no exact reason why?

The research I found said you needed the automatic “spacer” for ARP flywheel bolts on a Fidanza flywheel, but on an act flywheel the stock bolts are recommended.

Why people say that you need the spacer for ARP bolts on the Fidanza flywheel is because the Fidanza flywheel is aluminum, you don't want to damage when torquing down the bolts. So it's not actually a must to use if you don't care. But if you use the spacer to prevent to damage, the Fidanza flywheel flange is originally a little bit thicker since it's aluminum, and adding the thickness of the spacer, the stock bolts or the stock length ARP bolts would be too short. So people who use the Fidanza flywheel used to use longer ARP bolts for Toyota 3SGTE (about 4~5mm longer) with a auto flexplate adapter. I was doing this when I had the Fidanza flywheel. Without the spacer, the 3SGTE longer ARP bolts would be too long, so that would be risky. I think this is what you have read in somewhere.
If the bolt length is correct and if the flywheel is not aluminum, you have no reason to use the spacer. That's my opinion, everyone has their own preference though.

 

[danl]

Using too long flywheel bolts without a spacer or washer causes the flywheel to not get properly clamped down. The flywheel can then make noise in use and galling will show up under the bolt heads and on the flywheel. I saw this happen on a quartermaster that was ran for under 30 miles and the flywheel needed beat off as it was galled up or maybe cold welded to the crankshaft snout.

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

If you have the OEM flywheel bolts on order just wait for them. I’ve always used OEM ones as the length issue isn’t worth dicking around with when the OEM ones are correct and not a failure point to justify chancing ones that could cause issues, just my 2 cents. As far as the alignment dowels go they’re 100% needed, I’ve seen more than one instance over the years where people thought they weren’t necessary and ended up with a cracked bell housing, one of these cases was on a Shep trans with only a few miles on it.

 

[habitatguy187]

Hmmm I don’t see how not having the dowels is going to affect the alignment when you have all 4 bolts in and tight.

Also, what is this “automatic spacer” you guys are speaking of? This is the first I’ve heard of it

 

[pauleyman]

Hmmm I don’t see how not having the dowels is going to affect the alignment when you have all 4 bolts in and tight.

Also, what is this “automatic spacer” you guys are speaking of? This is the first I’ve heard of it

I just explained this above. Don't think for a moment that tight bolts keep things in alignment while driving.

 

[danl]

Hmmm I don’t see how not having the dowels is going to affect the alignment when you have all 4 bolts in and tight.

Also, what is this “automatic spacer” you guys are speaking of? This is the first I’ve heard of it

You 100% need the dowels, period.

The spacer is an oem part # MD952138 that goes on over the flex plate on an auto car.

 

[Christo]

Did someone say dowels, because you need those.

 

[bastarddsm]

The transmission input shaft is required to be within 0.01" of concentric of the crankshaft. If it is not the flywheel and clutch start to "orbit" around the input shaft. It will make the disc try to move side to side on the flywheel till it self clearances itself. End result is poor shifting, worn clutch disc, worn splines, damaged input shaft. The dowels keep the trans located. The bolt holes in the trans are actually a very loose tolerance. ~0.1", they will not ensure proper alignment. You can measure this, put a dial indicater stand on the crank and sweep the input bearing pocket, and the sandwhich plate pocket. I've checked quite a few, and most are good, but you could get a bad combo with a block out one way, and a trans out the other, and have quite a bit of mismatch. I suspect this is the issue with guys that can't get them to shift and have discs fall apart constantly.

Also if you are running a clutch that has higher than stock release loads, you probably need to run better than stock bolts at higher torque values.

Same goes for the pressure plate. A 2600 probably needs 12.9 bolts torqued to 25ft*lbs or better.

The act flywheel does not need any spacer or washers with stock or ARP bolts. The ARP bolts for a 6 bolt are in fact SHORTER than stock bolts. The crank holes are generally tapped deep enough for the long stock bolts and an ACT flywheel. I've seen 1 time they were not and it was on an eagle crank. If you are a hack and don't clean the threads and fasteners it's possible to have issues. Now if you were running something like a lightweight quarter master flywheel the hub is very thin and the bolts can bottom before they clamp the flywheel. I like to run the longest bolt possible. It's simple to do, thread the bolt in till it bottoms, count the turns till it falls out. Mount the flywheel do the same thing. I like at least 1 turn of clearance.

As for the auto spacer ring, use that on a quarter master if you have stock bolts, and use with an aluminum flywheel for any bolt. Without it the bolts will pull into the aluminum and prevent proper fastener preload, and will come loose in time. Proper technique is critical to ensure a reliable flywheel/crank interface. 1 drop of loctite, and arp lube/grease under the heads. If you coat the shit in loctite like most do, you will probably have a bad time. And as with the trans mount and pressure plate, if you make not stock power/torque, you shoud not be using not stock fastener torque values. But the car would actually have to run for any of this to matter.

Using too long flywheel bolts without a spacer or washer causes the flywheel to not get properly clamped down. The flywheel can then make noise in use and galling will show up under the bolt heads and on the flywheel. I saw this happen on a quartermaster that was ran for under 30 miles and the flywheel needed beat off as it was galled up or maybe cold welded to the crankshaft snout.

When this happens it usually f***s the timing pulley on the other end too.

 

[DSMPT]

I saw this happen on a quartermaster

This happened to me once. I have had two spacers on the quarter master 8 leg flywheel since.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Appreciate everyone’s input and advice.


Also would just like to state the car runs. That’s why I’m investigating and asking about all this. Hoping to prevent more trans issues in the future.