Considering a 2g Time Attack build

[prostreetdsmx1]

i think did do a 2g

 

[Slow old poop]

We have built a ton fo cars with that power level that don't leak, vibrate or have issues. this is what we do for a living, we know all too well of the issues that can come and how to prevent them before they are issues.

Oh, really? Man, I wish you guys were closer. We fought all the above problems one at a time over a two year period, and finally (we hope) have the car sorted. If I had known then what I know now, I would have brought the car to you on a trailer two years ago and said, "make it go fast and not break, leak or vibrate." Alas, there is nobody around here who has ever road raced a DSM, so we were pretty much on our own.

Here's your big chance for a business plug (it's OK to answer, because I am asking the question): Who are you and what do you do?

And, on the off chance that I don't sell it this winter, is it possible to bring the car to you for a checkout? I still think I have a potential NASA national class winner, but it needs some professional setup and chassis tuning work--which, again, nobody around here knows how to do.

 

[asian312]

the archer car was a 1g, unless they built a 2g one as well. I have never seen of it.

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94-96 SCCA World Challenge Championship

 

[123abc]

There's much more to it than just suspension alone. The Evo body is stiffer (stock). The active center diff keeps the power to the right tires so you can make use of that grip. And lets not mention that they come with nice wide and sticky tires with Brembos behind them. In the end it is a sum of all the parts that make it balanced and praised. And while it shares the same basic design as a 1G, it's geometry is quite different.

I'm interested to see how a 500HP 2G GSX will track. With 500HP you need tires that will hold that power, transmission that will take that power, brakes that can stop it, and suspension that can make that power usable in corners. I see it as another template for the 2Gs since the only other widely known occurance of a road racing 2G is Archer's Talon.

In all honesty, I would be scared to drive a 2g with 500 hp without a rollcage to stiffen the chassis. I drive a 98 Avenger daily, (sister to the 2g dsm), and does it ever flex around. Just feels sloppy when driving it.

Driving my 1g Laser on the other hand... very stiff chassis, take corners without drama, among other things. I personally would think a 1g would make a much better road race car than a 2g. Weren't 1g's designed with rallying in mind? I thought I read that somewhere.

 

[Slow old poop]

the archer car was a 1g, unless they built a 2g one as well. I have never seen of it.

The Archer car was at Road America at the F-Body event. We got to check it out pretty good. It's a FWD that weighs about 2,000 lb, so it gets around the track very well. The only problem I saw was its tendency to lock up the rear brakes because of no weight on the rear. The current owner bought it out of a museum, where it has sat for the past few years. He changed the fluids, started it up, and brought it to the track.

 

[asian312]

In all honesty, I would be scared to drive a 2g with 500 hp without a rollcage to stiffen the chassis. I drive a 98 Avenger daily, (sister to the 2g dsm), and does it ever flex around. Just feels sloppy when driving it.

Driving my 1g Laser on the other hand... very stiff chassis, take corners without drama, among other things. I personally would think a 1g would make a much better road race car than a 2g. Weren't 1g's designed with rallying in mind? I thought I read that somewhere.

More so than the flex, it would be required for safey. Both in the form of roll protection and harness mounts. Can't imagine being flung around the cabin traveling at those speeds .

 

[underradar92]

Here's your big chance for a business plug (it's OK to answer, because I am asking the question): Who are you and what do you do?

Martins shop: http://www.vipgarageonline.com/page/1cdo8/Home.html Or you can click under his screen name. Noob.

. The only problem I saw was its tendency to lock up the rear brakes because of no weight on the rear. .

Scott has an adjustable proportioning valve, he was working on dialing it in, but I suppose there may come a point where a really front heavy setup will just ignore the ground with the rear wheels, like a motorcycle doing a stoppie. I'd love to see a car do that!

 

[turbosax2]

like a motorcycle doing a stoppie. I'd love to see a car do that!

Not a car but...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dHRgVvAO8Pw

 

[talonTSIDriver]

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94-96 SCCA World Challenge Championship

that car looks AWESOME

 

[Evan K.]

Let me stick by big ol' nose in here.

As far as 1g vs. 2g flexi-flier bodies. I own both. Now it has been along time since I drove my 2g stock but I just don't remember it being as flexi as my 1g.

Center dif? Who needs a center dif? I'll stay FWD and save the 300 lbs. thank you. I seem to remember something about some yellow FWD 1g winning a race or two.

You want interesting try driving a 400 hp FWD 2g on track in the stock seat and seatbelt.

I remember watching a race on TV back in '95 that had both 1g and 2g Archer cars on the course at the same time. They were both painted in the black and yellow scheme. The 1g was yellow w/black and the 2g was black w/yellow. It's a little fuzzy but as I recall the cars were doing ok, maybe mid pack(?). Then the skies opened and the DSM's started passing everything else as they couldn't put the power to the pavement. My recollection is that the 2g was certainly faster than the 1g but that may have been an AWD vs. FWD thing. I think the 2g Archer cars were AWD. I know at least one is.

Martin my votes are for a 3076r on a 2.0 or 2.4 or a full GT35R on a 2.4.

I think the BB 50 trim is a little over rated. It's certainly a very nice turbo but it's not the Holy Grail. I run a FP 3052. I wouldn't call it laggy at all. 20 psi at 3700 rpm and 24 psi at 3900 rpm on a stock 2g bottom end running 100 octane. Nice safe tune too BTW. Pick your poison

Speaking of Archer cars... Martin PM me. I have information on the 2g Archer cars I can share with you.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

Evan, I want everyones nose in on this. I got my start with DSMtuners way way way back in the day. This place and my bruthas thoughts mean a lot to me.

I have never been a HUGE fan of the 3076. I am considering the 3082 for some real pulling power. I am trying to think most about turn exit ability. I need to focus on working the turbo selection to help remedy natural weakness of the car.

Slowoldpoop - I do in fact own VIP Garage. We have spent the last to years Backing CJ Moses and Marty Grand in T2, both of which are top regional contenders. Ran at a competitive level in US Drift, Supported several auto cross and road race cars. Supported a 1000whp FWD drag car and tons of aggressive street cars.

We have learned many lessons the hard way. Boy oh boy have we learned the hard way! We have done everything from custom fluid cooling systems (oil, gear oil, etc), all kinds of chassis support systems, brace supports and tons of other stuff.

We know what it takes to make things keep running and this car will get the full attention of the entire team.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

You want interesting try driving a 400 hp FWD 2g on track in the stock seat and seatbelt.

, boy oh boy do i know what you're talking about! Did you atleast have cloth or were you slidin around on the leather?

 

[schemauer]

I've been away from this site for a few days..........

Martiin - I have the 1g Archer car; what do you need to know?? I can tell you the car is generally about weight reduction, reliability and a good cage/stiff structure. It only makes ~218 hp at the wheels at 15 psi but it will run with newer big dollar cars. I just added a lsd before the last track event and dropped about 2 seconds off my lap time at Road America.

I also have some limited info on the 2g Archer cars and a gentleman in Canada that still owns one or two of them (bbracin.com). I've also talked with David Wolin who fielded a team of 1g cars back in the day. Also, just out of blind luck, I met someone at Road America this past month that worked at CompTech when they built the engine for the Archer car that I own back in early '93. I've tried to learn a bit from all of them.

I think you'd be better off though starting from scratch with a good road race chassis tuning shop. The Archer cars were good "in the day", but I'm not sure what you'd learn from them that might apply to what you're doing.

As Rich mentioned the Archer car is essentially as it was run in '93. I did replace all the safety equipment, all the coolant and intake hoses, etc... Also added an AFC on top of the VPC that was originally used in the car.

The car is so stiff that it will lift the inside rear wheel in most corners. (If you jack it up just behind the front wheel the back and front wheels come off the ground at the same time.) There's no droop in the back like a stock body. It's so light in the back that I can't get enough front bias to stop rear lockup in some corners.

I think one of the keys is a nice, big, adjustble rear sway bar. I don't have a front sway, but the adjustable rear bar allows almost neutral handling. This is a FWD, however.

500 hp should be more than enough in a well set up car. Hopefully you've had experience in corner weighting, shock valving and the nuances of setting up the coil-over system you'll be using. Sounds like you do....

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

thanks for the great post bud. It's very much appreciated. I am all to familiar with balance, weight and suspension tuning. I am still also learning a lot from guys like Marty and CJ but i don't think the learning ever stops.

Like I've been saying, the chassis is my biggest worry. Fortunately the car doesn't have any rust issues and minor body issues. Once I get around to sending SBR the motor the entire car will be strippd down, completely blasted, frame checked and corrected as needed, caged, braced and then painted. Once that is all done we can get to work on all of the suspension parts and making the car as nimble as possible.

Understeer is one of our biggest issues to deal with but thanks to our great trial and error on the EVO's i have a pretty good attack plan to really make for a neutral platform. God I get more and more excited about this project everyday.

I need to snap some pics so you guys can see what i'm starting with and go from there so we can document all of it.

 

[Evan K.]

I can personally tell you that you can make a FWD 2g oversteer

 

[BoostFrenzy]

I am looking for about 500whp which i could get with a 50 but i'm thinking of a few bigger options.

Thanks for answering my HP question Martin

Martin my votes are for a 3076r on a 2.0 or 2.4 or a full GT35R on a 2.4.

My thoughts for the turbo are this:
-For a 2.0L, I would go for a BB 50Trim. It's a good turbo (And one that I have thought of jumping to if I had the money).
-For a 2.3 or 2.4L, my vote goes to a BB GT30R. I know from experience that it is an awesome turbo for a stroker engine, and it can make your 500hp goal on race gas. A fellow member on here that I personally know runs a BB GT30R on his 2.3 engine that is intended for road racing. (He's doing probably just under 500whp on 91 + a large amount of meth so 500hp on race gas shouldn't be too big of a problem).

And Martin, please keep with the updates. It makes us happy .

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

thanks for the great post bud. It's very much appreciated. I am all to familiar with balance, weight and suspension tuning. I am still also learning a lot from guys like Marty and CJ but i don't think the learning ever stops.

Like I've been saying, the chassis is my biggest worry. Fortunately the car doesn't have any rust issues and minor body issues. Once I get around to sending SBR the motor the entire car will be strippd down, completely blasted, frame checked and corrected as needed, caged, braced and then painted. Once that is all done we can get to work on all of the suspension parts and making the car as nimble as possible.

Understeer is one of our biggest issues to deal with but thanks to our great trial and error on the EVO's i have a pretty good attack plan to really make for a neutral platform. God I get more and more excited about this project everyday.

I need to snap some pics so you guys can see what i'm starting with and go from there so we can document all of it.

I am surprised understeer is the largest thing your worried about. I pretty much get none of it. Car rotates quite nicely and applying the throttle even with only 300 horsepower coming out of a corner is more of a 4wd slide being DEAD neutral.

Now you can make it understeer, if you #### up a corner, but if your driving right, in my experience, I dont even run into understeer on a road race course, autocross tho understeer is a slight issue fixed with some trail braking.


I am surprised your trying to go with so much horsepower. With only my b16g setup, at only 15lbs I absolutely destroy most cars coming out of a corner, now yes, the big ass viper is faster on the straights, but typically way too heavy and too much torque to get some good speed out of the corner. so all it does is me pull away in corners, and maybe middle to end of the straight he "catches up". Does Marty's car or the other evo have 500whp? 500whp on track, sounds like those heavily turbocharged miatas, completely unbalances them, and if you get the 2g down to 2800, imagine your power to weight ratio is gonna be wayyyyy too insane. But thats my honest opinion, and much the opinion of everyone I have ever met on track from the guys who have been doing it for many more years than I have even lived.

But more power to you if you can make it a well-balanced and reliable car. The 2g is definitely a competitive car, as ive had many gt40s, corvettes, shelby cobras and all those other cars coming over to me, going, wtf? What the hell do you have in that thing? And most of them have actaully told me that they had a drag one from 95 or 93 or 96, so many people have had them.

What kind of brake setup are you going with? I wish I had followed the advice of some guys on here with going with a 1.25 thick rotor instead of the 1.10. Ive managed to already crack a set of 13x1.10s on both sides using race pads. What about a wheel setup? Any opinions on that? Id like to see the blinging fat ass wide wheels we know your gonna put on there . I may have to watch this closely and hound you for some custom parts .

See you this winter Marti, ill definitely be stopping by to see some of the amazing shit you put together. I still wish I could buy that insane manifold you guys build for evos and dsms, but alas broke college and road racing kid right here. Those two barely mix haha. Oh, did you ever come up with a setup for the 2g tranny oil coolers?

Marty, im glad you finally got her out of the corner, this is gonna be one insane setup.

 

[Slow old poop]

What kind of brake setup are you going with? I wish I had followed the advice of some guys on here with going with a 1.25 thick rotor instead of the 1.10. Ive managed to already crack a set of 13x1.10s on both sides using race pads. What about a wheel setup? Any opinions on that? Id like to see the blinging fat ass wide wheels we know your gonna put on there . :

If you are running Stoptechs, get Supercar Engineering ( http://supercar-engineering.com/) to rebuild the calipers and install 10mm spacers, so you can go to the wider rotors.

But don't buy the rotors from Stoptech. At $220 each, they are outrageously expensive. Jason (elvenhome) thinks we can use 13x1.25 NASCAR rotors at $90 each, but someone will have to fab up a rotor hat that matches our hub to the NASCAR rotors. If there are enuf of us who want to do this, I am certain that somebody will make the hats for us at a reasonable price. If I don't sell the car, that's what I plan to do.

I used to crack the 1.1 rotors on a regular basis, but now that I've gone to 1.25 rotors, no problems. My rotors have lasted all season. My biggest problem with the brakes is pad knockback, but we cured most of that with residual valves. I still get knockback, but now it only takes one pump to get a firm pedal instead of three or four pumps. It's our tiny spindles and flex that causes the knockback, and there really isn't anything else you can do to cure it except use residual valves.

As for wheels, I use the Mustang SVT replicas (17x9, $100 each plus shipping), which handle up to 245 x 17 tires just fine. You may also be able to get these in 17x10, which will handle 275x17 tires. I am running 10x17 CCWs right now with 275 Hoosiers, but the wheels belong to my buddy's 3000GT VR4 and I have to give them back. In the rear (on a 1G) you have to use 10mm spacers with the 10x17s, else they will hit the lower control arm. You also have to raise it up a little so they don't hit the fender. Or, you can flare the fenders. No problems with the 17x10s up front on a 1G.

(No, the 17x10s don't go with the car if I sell it)

 

[kingjust]

already looking for the spindles bro.

Hey Marti, this is Aarons friend with the burgandy 2G. Have you thought of using the 3000gt/stealth R/T calipers with OE evo rotors? I'm having my friend mock up a bracket to fit it, and the only issue is caliper/rim clearance. How big of a diameter would the rotors be if you went with the galant spindles and the evo calipers? Oh yeah, to save a buck, I got both front calipers for 100 even, just FYI. And for the time attack, I would suggest the Brian Crowers 2.6 stroked 4g64 kit. That bottom end torque should shave some pretty good time off your laps in a limited straight away course, and still be able to spool a very nice size turbo very quickly, say the 362 or 366 from bullseye for those straight aways. Whatcha think?

KJ

 

[mavisky]

Just some notes here.

With the bar I have I'm actually getting too much lift throttle oversteer right now in my fwd. Nothing custom, just a good suspension setup and a Suspension Techniques rear bar.

17x9 mustang wheels work good and my 275's look nice and square on them. My advice would be to look into 18x10" wheels and run a 285/30-18 as these are closer to the right overall diameter for a dsm.

Learn to love cooling systems - but I'm sure you already know that.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

I've decided to stick with a 2.0L and most likely 50trim turbo.

I do think it's going to be EVO brakes for a few reasons....
1. Availability of parts
2. Pricing of parts
3. Pricing and Availability of parts

 

[turbosax2]

Why did you decide to stick with the 2.0?

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

Why did you decide to stick with the 2.0?

Revs bay. revs.

 

[turbosax2]

Revs bay. revs.

Gotcha!

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

If you are running Stoptechs, get Supercar Engineering ( http://supercar-engineering.com/) to rebuild the calipers and install 10mm spacers, so you can go to the wider rotors.

But don't buy the rotors from Stoptech. At $220 each, they are outrageously expensive. Jason (elvenhome) thinks we can use 13x1.25 NASCAR rotors at $90 each, but someone will have to fab up a rotor hat that matches our hub to the NASCAR rotors. If there are enuf of us who want to do this, I am certain that somebody will make the hats for us at a reasonable price. If I don't sell the car, that's what I plan to do.

I used to crack the 1.1 rotors on a regular basis, but now that I've gone to 1.25 rotors, no problems. My rotors have lasted all season. My biggest problem with the brakes is pad knockback, but we cured most of that with residual valves. I still get knockback, but now it only takes one pump to get a firm pedal instead of three or four pumps. It's our tiny spindles and flex that causes the knockback, and there really isn't anything else you can do to cure it except use residual valves.

As for wheels, I use the Mustang SVT replicas (17x9, $100 each plus shipping), which handle up to 245 x 17 tires just fine. You may also be able to get these in 17x10, which will handle 275x17 tires. I am running 10x17 CCWs right now with 275 Hoosiers, but the wheels belong to my buddy's 3000GT VR4 and I have to give them back. In the rear (on a 1G) you have to use 10mm spacers with the 10x17s, else they will hit the lower control arm. You also have to raise it up a little so they don't hit the fender. Or, you can flare the fenders. No problems with the 17x10s up front on a 1G.

(No, the 17x10s don't go with the car if I sell it)

Actually using a wilwood setup. Im wondering how insanely far out those 10 inch wide rims will stick out on a 2g tho. I do want to at least step up to a 245 hoosier, im running a 225 hoosier right now and grip is insane, I cant imagine a 245 or larger.

Marti, revs sounds better, especially on a course like Summit, where I find myself right in the middle of 3/4 everywhere there when sometimes I wish I just had 1000 more revs to just do third or 4th. VIR wasnt really a problem, im sure you guys will be using that car for more than just the tracks I know tho

PS Marti, if you dont give me a ride in that thing when its finished, I think I will have to kill you.