Considering a 2g Time Attack build

[talonTSIDriver]

I think this whole DSM VS EVO conversation is drifting off topic but regardless, I thought we had a viscous coupling center diff in all AWD DSMs, which is a cheap form of LSD, hence why we can't tow the car with one end up in the air. Many also came with the option of an LSD in the rear. So really the only true open differential is in the front, correct?

That isn't to say that our LSDs are very good but I know first hand from playing on snow and ice and gravel covered roads, not to mention laying down three and a half strips of rubber on a hard launch or two, that they do function.

Oh, and as long as we're comparing DSMs and EVO's, the 1g has a more similar front suspension and a more rigid shell so I think we'd be more competitive with an Evo than those limp-noodle 2g's.

limp-noodle 2gs???

I thought (correct me of wrong) that the front diff uses the Viscous coupling LCD. I broke my center diff on my car once, took it out and its just an open diff, 2 little spyder gears. If you are going perfectly straigh, all wheels should spin fairly close to the same, but try flooring it while the wheel is turned completely to one way.

 

[eclipsh]

limp-noodle 2gs???

I thought (correct me of wrong) that the front diff uses the Viscous coupling LCD. I broke my center diff on my car once, took it out and its just an open diff, 2 little spyder gears. If you are going perfectly straigh, all wheels should spin fairly close to the same, but try flooring it while the wheel is turned completely to one way.

Nope, the front diff is the only open diff in our awd cars if you have the lsd option for the rear. The spider gear section of the center diff is just that, spider gears. The viscous coupling at the end of the shafts coming out of it is our LSD for the center. It sits right next to 5th gear in the top of the tranny.

From VFAQ:

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[123abc]

all dsm's come with an open-end center diff. as for comparison, lets say both a dsm and an evo are taking a tight turn. On the Evo, the power is directed to the wheels that need the power whereas a dsm, the inside wheels spin as those wheels have the least traction.

I guess I should've refraised my question. I'm wondering if there are any possibilities that the evo center diff can be transfered over to our dsm trannies.

 

[eclipsh]

I guess I should've refraised my question. I'm wondering if there are any possibilities that the evo center diff can be transfered over to our dsm trannies.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161419&highlight=evo+center+dif

I <3 Searching

It really looks like that isn't an option. I wish it was but oh well Wishes and fishes and all that jazz.

 

[123abc]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161419&highlight=evo+center+dif

I <3 Searching

It really looks like that isn't an option. I wish it was but oh well Wishes and fishes and all that jazz.

My bad.

 

[busa jocky]

Or you could buy my car for $10,000.

Here are the details:
FOR SALE

1990 Eclipse GSX AWD Turbo
$10,000 OBO
Performance of an M3, 911 or Z06 at a fraction of the cost

History:
Ran 2003 One Lap of America
Won NASA TTB event at Road America, 2006
Won six NASA TTR events in Midwest, 2007
Currently Midwest Region TTR points leader
Retuned for NASA TTS class, 2007

Modifications

Engine:
AMS 2.3 stroker motor, currently tuned for 355 hp at the wheels (about 410 flywheel hp) to be within 10 hp of NASA TTS class maximum hp/wt ratio. Only 500 track miles on motor. Installed winter 2006. Stage 4 ported and polished head, titanium keepers, 272 cams, 20G Frank turbo, Extreme Motorsports FMIC and piping, Fluidyne aluminum radiator, Electric Flex-a-lite fans, 660 cc injectors, 2G MAF, Buscher FPR, Walboro Fuel Pump, DSMLink, data logger, balance shafts removed, remote oil filter, oil cooler.

Chassis:
Kirk Racing bolt-in cage (SCCA approved), Spearco steering wheel, Kirkey seats, New 5-point harnesses (2007), Ground Control coil-overs with Koni adjustable struts and camber plates, front and rear strut braces, Stoptech brakes (widened 10 mm for a larger rotor), battery moved to rear, baffled gas tank. Weight: 3,000 lb with full tank.

Wheels and Tires
Five SSR GT-1 rims. Four rims have Dunlop Supersport Race tires 225/45/17 (used as rain tires), one has a Toyo Prox 235/45/17 RA-1 tire
Four 17x9 wheels with Toyo Prox 235/45/17 RA-1 tires
7-8 used Hoosier 245/45/17 tires, unmounted.

Contact: Rich Merritt, 319/393-2917 [email protected]
3076 Brittany Circle, Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
Will deliver within 250 miles of Cedar Rapids.

i think thats my old car same set up i had minus the 2.3 when i sold it to a guy from the Chicago area. we ran it in the 03 one lap of america. im almost 100% sure thats my old track whore.... i have been trying to find the car for a couple months now, i want it back! if the price is right

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[stealthTT]

Holy cow, yeah SlowOldPoop has that car now, but a lot has been changed! Motor, head, DSMLink, Kirkey seats, fixed the cage, fixed the intercooler, replaced the intercooler hoses, added t-bolts, replaced the intake pipe, fixed some wiring, widened the Stoptech calipers so we could run a fatter rotor and quit cracking them....geez....I could go on for an hour. It's actually changed a lot.

 

[Slow old poop]

Holy cow, yeah SlowOldPoop has that car now, but a lot has been changed!

Yep, same car. Essentially, we fixed all the electrical and boost problems, put in a 2.3 stroker motor, DSMLink, upgraded the brakes, and we run bigger wheels and tires. The crusie control is gone, we fixed the roll cage so somebody can actually sit in the passenger seat, and installed a bunch of new goodies, all detailed in the list above. No dents or body damge, just a lttle flaking paint on the rear bumper. It is much faster than when you had it.

By the bye, whoever told you the head had been ported and polished lied to you. We had that done properly when we put in the 2.3 stroker.

 

[busa jocky]

Yep, same car. Essentially, we fixed all the electrical and boost problems, put in a 2.3 stroker motor, DSMLink, upgraded the brakes, and we run bigger wheels and tires. The crusie control is gone, we fixed the roll cage so somebody can actually sit in the passenger seat, and installed a bunch of new goodies, all detailed in the list above. No dents or body damge, just a lttle flaking paint on the rear bumper. It is much faster than when you had it.

By the bye, whoever told you the head had been ported and polished lied to you. We had that done properly when we put in the 2.3 stroker.

what rod and piston combo did ams put in the motor? i had 2 sets of cracked aem rotors, that car always had a problem cracking rotors. sounds like the car is alot better sorted out now. sent you a pm.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

hey folks, sorry i've been MIA. I did start tearing stuff apart already. I got the car out of the back corner of the shop so i can be tearing it apart as i get some free time.

Now that race season we will have some breathing time at the shop so I can work on it more and more. My boy Mike at SBR is getting the motor sometime before the end of the year so that he can build it. He and I have already gone back and fourth about some ideas and he's been a huge help.

Jon at TRE is hooking the trans, again an AMAZING resource.

The Clutch is coming from my boys at Competition Clutch and now I am really just trying to narrow down my turbo selection. I have pretty much decided on KW V3 coilovers and making a ton of custom fabbed performance and suspension parts in house.

 

[Slow old poop]

what rod and piston combo did ams put in the motor? i had 2 sets of cracked aem rotors, that car always had a problem cracking rotors. sounds like the car is alot better sorted out now. sent you a pm.

I think they are Ross pistons and rods, but I can't find their $3500 invoice (for the short block) at the moment. ARP studs everywhere, new oil pump, AMS balance shaft removal kit, O-ringed, etc. The engine is STRONG. We had the head ported and polished to Stage 4 at some place in Indiana.

Yes, I was going through rotors like crazy, too, until we had SuperCar Engineering rebuiild and widen the Stopech calipers to accept 1.25 in. wide rotors, and haven't had a problem since. The Stoptechs are designed for FWD cars, not AWD cars, but now they are fine. We also put in residual valves to lessen the pad knockback, and replaced both front hubs. No brake problems any more.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

now I am really just trying to narrow down my turbo selection.

What kind of power are you looking to make for this setup?

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Maybe some sort of BB 50 trim, otherwise the evoIII 16g is a great all-around turbo. Good spoolup and decent top end. For road racing, HP is like 5% of racing, but you do want the power fast, dont want to wait for it, and the powerband should be flat and long.

 

[Slow old poop]

For road racing, HP is like 5% of racing, but you do want the power fast, dont want to wait for it, and the powerband should be flat and long.

I disagree. It's mostly about horsepower. I managed to beat Slinky, a national champion, at Road America (with a wicked handling S2000) because of horsepower. He was all over me in the corners--especially in the Carousel--but I pulled him down the straights by a ton and beat him by 0.10 seconds. With the tune AMS gave me, the torque and hp curves are fairly flat (not peaky) so I have good power at all rpm. If the car was ever to be drag raced, it would have to be re-tuned.

On the other hand, I managed to beat a ton of cars at Iowa Speedway because of handling. I had set the car up perfectly for ovals (-5 camber on right front, 0 camber on left front, raise right rear, low tire pressure on left side), and was one of the only cars able to run the high groove around the banking.

Let's face it--our cars do not handle well. They are too high, front end heavy, and flex because of the unibody.

Now, if there was some way to make our antiquated front suspension stick better, it might be more about handling. I had a conversation this weekend with Jason (elvenhome) about adding some front castor to make the front wheels work a little better, and installing poly suspension bushings so the front doesn't bend so much. (I have a photo of my car on the high banks at Iowa Speedway, where--in spite of -5 camber, the right front was standing straight up!) If I don't sell the car, that will be my next project--along with some aero (splitter and Gurney flap) to get more downforce, corner weighting, and getting a pro to help me with the setup.

But, until we can get the car to stick better, I have to rely on horsepower. Good thing I got it.

 

[eclipsh]

Now, if there was some way to make our antiquated front suspension stick better, it might be more about handling. I had a conversation this weekend with Jason (elvenhome) about adding some front castor to make the front wheels work a little better, and installing poly suspension bushings so the front doesn't bend so much. (I have a photo of my car on the high banks at Iowa Speedway, where--in spite of -5 camber, the right front was standing straight up!) If I don't sell the car, that will be my next project--along with some aero (splitter and Gurney flap) to get more downforce, corner weighting, and getting a pro to help me with the setup.

But, until we can get the car to stick better, I have to rely on horsepower. Good thing I got it.

Evo 8-9 cars use a suspension setup similar to 1g's in front and they are constantly praised for their handling. Why shouldn't our cars handle just as well with new bushings and a little work on the the rear end? Some heim joints and more solid mounts should do the trick, right? 2g cars are often praised for having better handling than the 1g cars with their double wishbone front end. Shouldn't they be able to handle BETTER than an Evo on paper? After all, all our cars, including Evos, are unibody and if you're racing you'll have a roll cage to help stiffen the car up, right?

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

I am looking for about 500whp which i could get with a 50 but i'm thinking of a few bigger options.

The handling package is my biggest concern. We have a lot of bracing to do and the KW's will take a lot of work to really dial in. It's going to be an effort of love for sure.

 

[Slow old poop]

I am looking for about 500whp which i could get with a 50 but i'm thinking of a few bigger options. .

500 hp is probably OK for drag racing, but if you road race this puppy, you are going to be plagued with boost leaks, vibration problems, oil leaks, and billions of other problems you can't even imagine right now.

Besides, why 500 hp? What class are you running, and what are the limitations? Do you have to meet hp/wt requirements?

If you are going for some big-time class, you will be up against the AMS Evo, and I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

I disagree. It's mostly about horsepower. I managed to beat Slinky, a national champion, at Road America (with a wicked handling S2000) because of horsepower. He was all over me in the corners--especially in the Carousel--but I pulled him down the straights by a ton and beat him by 0.10 seconds. With the tune AMS gave me, the torque and hp curves are fairly flat (not peaky) so I have good power at all rpm. If the car was ever to be drag raced, it would have to be re-tuned.

On the other hand, I managed to beat a ton of cars at Iowa Speedway because of handling. I had set the car up perfectly for ovals (-5 camber on right front, 0 camber on left front, raise right rear, low tire pressure on left side), and was one of the only cars able to run the high groove around the banking.

Let's face it--our cars do not handle well. They are too high, front end heavy, and flex because of the unibody.

Now, if there was some way to make our antiquated front suspension stick better, it might be more about handling. I had a conversation this weekend with Jason (elvenhome) about adding some front castor to make the front wheels work a little better, and installing poly suspension bushings so the front doesn't bend so much. (I have a photo of my car on the high banks at Iowa Speedway, where--in spite of -5 camber, the right front was standing straight up!) If I don't sell the car, that will be my next project--along with some aero (splitter and Gurney flap) to get more downforce, corner weighting, and getting a pro to help me with the setup.

But, until we can get the car to stick better, I have to rely on horsepower. Good thing I got it.

Well depending on the track, sometimes HP will help out more. I re-thought about it and if i take myself back to a few of the BIGer tracks, then i would say HP is about 10%. A lot has to do with tires and driver.

500whp??? Thats a lot of power, better get yourself some AWESOME brakes, and double T-bolt-clamp everything. what sort of turbo are you looking at?? any bigger than a 50 trim and turbo lag will laugh at you.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

500 hp is probably OK for drag racing, but if you road race this puppy, you are going to be plagued with boost leaks, vibration problems, oil leaks, and billions of other problems you can't even imagine right now.

Besides, why 500 hp? What class are you running, and what are the limitations? Do you have to meet hp/wt requirements?

If you are going for some big-time class, you will be up against the AMS Evo, and I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

500whp is what it will take to be competitive in teh Modified Class we are looking to compete in with the car.

we know the AMS car and AMS well, their car is unlimited.

We have built a ton fo cars with that power level that don't leak, vibrate or have issues. this is what we do for a living, we know all too well of the issues that can come and how to prevent them before they are issues.

 

[asian312]

Evo 8-9 cars use a suspension setup similar to 1g's in front and they are constantly praised for their handling. Why shouldn't our cars handle just as well with new bushings and a little work on the the rear end? Some heim joints and more solid mounts should do the trick, right? 2g cars are often praised for having better handling than the 1g cars with their double wishbone front end. Shouldn't they be able to handle BETTER than an Evo on paper? After all, all our cars, including Evos, are unibody and if you're racing you'll have a roll cage to help stiffen the car up, right?

There's much more to it than just suspension alone. The Evo body is stiffer (stock). The active center diff keeps the power to the right tires so you can make use of that grip. And lets not mention that they come with nice wide and sticky tires with Brembos behind them. In the end it is a sum of all the parts that make it balanced and praised. And while it shares the same basic design as a 1G, it's geometry is quite different.

I'm interested to see how a 500HP 2G GSX will track. With 500HP you need tires that will hold that power, transmission that will take that power, brakes that can stop it, and suspension that can make that power usable in corners. I see it as another template for the 2Gs since the only other widely known occurance of a road racing 2G is Archer's Talon.

 

[2gGSX]

The S256 would have been a great turbo, albeit slightly too large. You stated that the wheel(s) were too big for your class. What limitations do you have on the size of the wheels?

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

There's much more to it than just suspension alone. The Evo body is stiffer (stock). The active center diff keeps the power to the right tires so you can make use of that grip. And lets not mention that they come with nice wide and sticky tires with Brembos behind them. In the end it is a sum of all the parts that make it balanced and praised. And while it shares the same basic design as a 1G, it's geometry is quite different.

I'm interested to see how a 500HP 2G GSX will track. With 500HP you need tires that will hold that power, transmission that will take that power, brakes that can stop it, and suspension that can make that power usable in corners. I see it as another template for the 2Gs since the only other widely known occurance of a road racing 2G is Archer's Talon.

i was looking for the Archer car. is there a site with more info about it?

 

[asian312]

None that I have found. Just a couple mentions in Archer Racing's career.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

yeah, i've been poking around a little bit looking for pics and specs.....

You guys are great at getting me more and more excited about it.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

the archer car was a 1g, unless they built a 2g one as well. I have never seen of it.