car not building boost

[Turbski91]

Im just breaking in my newly rebuild 6 bolt, and my car will not build boost. I checked for boost leaks, evap leaks, and checked the turbo it spins freely. What are some things to look for when a turbo will not build boost?

 

[Tim_I]

I'd check the waste gate and make sure it functions properly. could be stuck open also...

 

[Turbski91]

I'd check the waste gate and make sure it functions properly. could be stuck open also...

So I found out why it is not building boost... The turbo somehow locked up at the exhaust side bearing and snapped in half... How does that happen? Not enough oil? to hot? Anyone ever have this happen to them?

 

[JusMX141]

MAJOR lack of oil. The shaft is blue and it broke right where the turbine-side journal bearing contacts the shaft; major discoloration on the thrust plate right at the thrust collar. Huge problems somewhere in the oiling system.

 

[Turbski91]

MAJOR lack of oil. The shaft is blue and it broke right where the turbine-side journal bearing contacts the shaft; major discoloration on the thrust plate right at the thrust collar. Huge problems somewhere in the oiling system.

ok could it be my oil drain tube is clogged? because I believe thats what it was. or was it deff. not getting oil?

 

[Boostdriven]

That turbo is definitely not getting enough oil. Check your oil feed line to make sure its not clogged. If the line is not clogged but your feeding the turbo from the head then you need to switch the oil feed to the OFH.

 

[Turbski91]

That turbo is definitely not getting enough oil. Check your oil feed line to make sure its not clogged. If the line is not clogged but your feeding the turbo from the head then you need to switch the oil feed to the OFH.

I'm using a earls oil filter and ss line from the head and i know it is not clogged, but Im also using a 10an line for the drain it was stretch which also at the same time made the diameter smaller. my question is could that have been the problem?

 

[Boostdriven]

No not your drain but the fact that your feeding from the head and on top of that you're using an inline oil filter did the trick. In 10 years of dealing with turbos I have never used an inline oil filter before the turbo and I have yet to see one fail. if its not a BB turbo then you definitely don't need that inline filter, who ever told you to use that filter should be buying you a new turbo.

 

[spyderdrifter]

As its been stated, switch to the oil feed line from the OFH. I decided to use the head feed line on a new turbo, and ended up having JusMX141 rebuild my old turbo since the new turbo failed from lack of oil. Save yourself the trouble for your next turbo by swapping to the OFH feed line.

 

[Turbski91]

As its been stated, switch to the oil feed line from the OFH. I decided to use the head feed line on a new turbo, and ended up having JusMX141 rebuild my old turbo since the new turbo failed from lack of oil. Save yourself the trouble for your next turbo by swapping to the OFH feed line.

But these cars came stock feeding from the head, its boosting stock boost with a 16g. I dont feel like it would have been a problem feeding from the head since I just confirmed there is oil POURING out of the head with that line unplugged and engine running. Also the guy I got this filter from used it on his evo 16g with no problems. Im not trying to argue because you guys have been in this longer than me, but im just confused if it has oil at that spot and is where OEM put it then why is it bad?

 

[spyderdrifter]

The head location does work, yes, but the cylinder head on these cars gets oil last, and therefore feeds the turbo last. If you feed from the OFH like the 2g setup came, there's a higher oil pressure, stronger oil flow, and the turbo gets fed oil first.

 

[Boostdriven]

Not all DSMs have the same oil pressure, there is no filter from a factory so I don't see a point why you would use one either. Ditch the filter and run your feed from OFH and you will not have this problem again.

 

[Turbski91]

The head location does work, yes, but the cylinder head on these cars gets oil last, and therefore feeds the turbo last. If you feed from the OFH like the 2g setup came, there's a higher oil pressure, stronger oil flow, and the turbo gets fed oil first.

"stronger oil flow" "higher oil pressure" is a bad thing for MHI turbos it causes premature wear on the bearings. You would have to restric it down anyway. I think i will ditch the filter and save it for another turbo and just run the ss line from head to turbo.

 

[Boostdriven]

I think i will ditch the filter and save it for another turbo.

And you will probably kill another turbo with it.

 

[Turbski91]

And you will probably kill another turbo with it.

I dont believe that filter would restrict it that much anyway. Thats what they are made for.

 

[spyderdrifter]

Yes they are made for that, but also remember that the filter is most likely meant for certain oil viscosity range. So if you happen to use an oil that's too think, if won't flow properly through the filter media. Plus since you're feeding from an already low pressure source, you're restricting the oil too much.

"stronger oil flow" "higher oil pressure" is a bad thing for MHI turbos it causes premature wear on the bearings. You would have to restric it down anyway. I think i will ditch the filter and save it for another turbo and just run the ss line from head to turbo.

You are correct on this, which is probably the reason why 2Gs came with T-25 turbos and OFH feed lines. However, you can restrict the oil in other ways for an MHI turbo while using an OFH feed line.

 

[Boostdriven]

As far as I know there isn't a single factory car or truck that comes with an inline filter before the turbo and they run for thousands and thousands and thousands of miles. I don't know where this "brilliant" idea of using inline filter came from but I think that is stupid especially on a JB turbo. All the oil that goes through the engine goes through the oil filter first so if you're getting crap inside the turbo then your rod bearings will probably fail first. Take that filter and put it on your wall inside a picture frame, under it write "what not to do next time I bolt a new turbo on a car"

 

[spyderdrifter]

^^ ^^

 

[Boostdriven]

This might start a few arguments but I have yet to over oil a turbo and have it fail. I didn't realize this myself until the other day when I was out doing some fine tuning on my car. As I was slowing down in 4th gear after a 3rd gear pull I glanced at my oil pressure gauge (electronic 0-100psi) at 6500 rpms the needle was stuck just past 100 psi and as the rpms were dropping the needle didn't drop until the rpms dropped below 5500. My oil pressure has a nice gradual incline as rpms go up so only God knows how high my oil pressure is at 8500 rpms. I always knew that my oil pressure was getting up to a 100 psi but I never realized that it was that high. I've been running my holset HX40 with that kind of a pressure for about 15k miles. Last time I took that turbo apart to upgrade the compressor wheel, internally that turbo looked perfect. There was no excessive burnt oil build up by the exhaust wheel on the piston ring and no discolouration on the shaft whatsoever.

So tell me, how the hell is that holset holding up with that kind of oil pressure?

Some of the people on here think that holsets along with few other JB turbos need to be restricted to a certain pressure or else "its going to fail" There is nothing special about my HX40, just another turbo off the shelf. I run a #6 line straight from the OFH. My oil return is mostly a stock dsm drain tube with a bigger upper flange and 5/8" hose eliminating the stock flex section. I've been running this turbo for years and it has definitely seen some abuse. I have a HX52 now for about 2000 miles feeding it with the same #6 line and I'm 101% sure that this turbo will outlast my engine. I'm not the only one around here that's using a #6 line to the turbo straight from the OFH. There are few DSMs around here that I helped build and they all run the same #6 line to their holsets. None of them came back to me saying their turbo has failed, cars are still running to this day.

All the failed turbos that I seen or read about on here, have either been fed from the head or from the OFH with to small of a line (restricted or not) I have yet to see a post saying "I ran a big line to my turbo and now the shaft snapped" I understand that all turbos like BW, Holset, Mitsubishi, Garrett are different but they all have one thing in common. You under feed that turbo and it will fail very fast. All the turbos I've taken apart to rebuild, looking at the oiling system inside they all have small oil passages going from where the feed line is to the bearings, especially to the thrust bearing, its like a maze to get the oil there. Most have smaller passages then the inside of a #4 line. I know some of you may say" oh I've been running my garrett or whatever for miles with a restrictor and its still good" sure each turbo has its bare minimum oil needed to keep it alive but I guarantee you that it won't last as long as a turbo that's getting more oil then bare minimum especially if its not water cooled.

A while ago my friend put a good used garrett on his rx7 and didn't realise that his already small #4 line that was like 2 feet long was pinched. Somehow it worked its way between the intake manifold and some other bracket, I can't remember now what it was but he didn't get 3 blocks from his house and that turbo seized up on him.

Personally it doesn't effect me if some of you guys choose to use a restrictor or not. I say this because I see to many people that have turbo problems that they shouldn't have. So if you want to run a restrictor (or a filter like in this case) to your turbo because someone said so, well help yourself because no one is going to be replacing that turbo for you when it fails. It will all be coming out of your pocket.

 

[spyderdrifter]

Very well put. ^^ Please take to heart OP, that no one here is saying you're being nieve about using your filter. We're trying to help you prevent another failed turbo and wasted money. I almost bought one of those in-line filters for my setup awhile back, for other reasons, but decided against it since it was $80. Didn't see it as a wise waste of my money. After my tur o failing from being fed from the head, I'll never use that location again. What you choose to do in the end is your choice and no one can change that, but we can at least try to lead you in the right direction.

 

[Turbski91]

Very well put. ^^ Please take to heart OP, that no one here is saying you're being nieve about using your filter. We're trying to help you prevent another failed turbo and wasted money. I almost bought one of those in-line filters for my setup awhile back, for other reasons, but decided against it since it was $80. Didn't see it as a wise waste of my money. After my tur o failing from being fed from the head, I'll never use that location again. What you choose to do in the end is your choice and no one can change that, but we can at least try to lead you in the right direction.

I know noone is, and I'm not using the oil filter I said that in one of my last posts.

 

[JusMX141]

As far as I know there isn't a single factory car or truck that comes with an inline filter before the turbo...

Wrong.

Forced Performance Turbochargers

Not saying it's a good idea, but there are cars that have them. They're a failsafe for the turbo....if it's clogged, you have bigger problems. Then again, if it were a filter that is serviceable and the owners regularly serviced them, you wouldn't have turbo failure problems due to clogged filters.

All the oil that goes through the engine goes through the oil filter first so if you're getting crap inside the turbo then your rod bearings will probably fail first.

Nnnnnnnnnnope. You have it entirely backwards- you'll go through turbos like toilet paper if you have a slow-occurring rod bearing issue. If you're lucky enough to have the bearing fail instantly, you still have metal in the turbo but it likely hasn't damaged the shaft or journals yet.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/444131-turbo-failure-number-4-suggestions.html

There are inline filters designed for journal bearing turbo use; the Earl's filter is not one of them as it's designed for fuel which is far less-viscous. I believe the micron is too small and can actually restrict that oil flow that a journal bearing turbo requires.

 

[Boostdriven]

I didn't know subaru did something stupid like put a screen in the oil feed line, I thought they were smarter then that as for the metal getting in to the turbo from the rod bearing well I don't know about all that. What the hell we have an oil filter for then, just for looks?

My friend had a brass fitting break right off the OFH that fed the turbo and he drove the car for a block or so to get it home with oil shooting out of that hole. We got it fixed and the car was back on the road. Few weeks later we made a 400 mile round trip to the dyno. The next day he called me and said that he had some rod knock. So he ripped the engine apart and sure as shit all the rod bearing were shot. New crank, new bearings and the car was back on the road. A little while later he noticed some blue smoke, he thought it was the turbo. I took it apart for him and rebuilt it, the smoke went away but when I had the turbo apart I didn't say any scoring on the shaft or the bearing, that's something I should have seen according to what your saying. These is no inline filter on our DSMs from the factory and if you don't mess with the car and take care of it that bi*** will run 200,000+ miles no problem, so what the hell is the point of an inline filter?
I have yet to see the answer to my first question of how my holsets survive with my high oil pressure.

 

[JusMX141]

What the hell we have an oil filter for then, just for looks?

Some studies show oil filters can be 50%-70% clogged just 1000 miles after you change your oil depending how many contaminants are in the oil (sludge, metal, etc). This reduces the filter's ability to do it's job as well as restricts oil flow through the filter.

Obviously a manufacturer will not design an engine so that ALL the oil passes through the filter ALL the time. Consider what an oil filter does...it filters a portion of the oil under normal operating conditions. When you crank up the RPM's, oil flow quadruples over normal street driving....and if your filter is already partially clogged then most of the oil is going to bypass the filter.

In fact, in an engine that sees nothing but high-RPM use there's a good chance that less oil is being filtered than you think....which is why a "racing" filter has a less-restrictive, lower-micron media. Makes no sense- you pay more for a filter that does less work.


The inline turbo filter is simply to guard the turbo against getting metal in it in the event of a failing engine component. I don't care what your buddy's buddy had happen to his engine and turbo, I rebuild turbos every day that are full of metal from rod bearing, main bearing, and balance shaft bearing failures. I just got a HX40 in this week that had so much metal shoved in the journals that the shaft wouldn't even turn.

Under normal operation with an engine that doesn't produce metal, you shouldn't have to worry about metal clogging an inline oil filter but on a high RPM racing engine with lots of noise from solid motor mounts and twin-disc clutches where it's hard to hear possible rod bearing noise, I'd say it's almost mandatory to run one.

 

[Boostdriven]

I'm looking at a spare oil pump/OFH right now and I can see an oil pressure relief valve that dumps the oil back in to the pan but can you explain to me where that oil filter bypass valve is in our OFHs, I can't seem to fine it. You're a smart guy Justin but some of the things you say just make me wonder who told you that at the most critical stage of engine rpm the oil bypasses the filter and shoots whatever is at the bottom of the pan right in to the bearings, where do you get this information. If that was the case then what's the point of using a high flow oil filter, its just going to get bypassed anyways.

I'm looking at my 97 gsx original "maintenance booklet" and it says to change the oil at 3k miles under severe driving conditions then at 6k miles it says to change the oil and the filter. At 9k miles it says to change the oil only then at 12k miles again to change both oil and filter. If what you're saying is even 50% true about the filter being plugged up 50%-70% by 1000 miles then why the smart people at Mitsubishi who designed our badass platform would recommend we change the filter only every other oil change??? I've seen the same situation with other car manufacturers as well. It's not because they want you to save money, trust me they want your money, that's why they provide that maintenance booklet so you can bring the car in for regular services.

What are the chances of that HX40 your talking about getting oil from a none filtered side of the OFH, I would say 50/50