BW374 vs BB GT4202 .. is the price difference reasonable?

[Wicked95AWD]

FP is selling the BW for $775. That's a great price for a new turbo, especially one that big. Why would anyone with a small displacement engine who is looking for 900+ whp (obviously not bothered by lag) spend $2,500+ on a BB Garrett 4294R or 4202R when the BW's are so much cheaper and rebuildable? Is there some other advantage that the big GT turbo's have over the BW's that I should know about?

Forced Performance Turbochargers: Borg Warner S374 Turbocharger

 

[twicks69]

Well, I will be testing this turbo (S374) in April to see if it lives up to its hype. There are worries that the bearing assembly cannot hold up to very high boost levels; as I will be running 42-50+psi on it. I will say that the Garrett GT CHRA's are extremely stout and can handle a ton of abuse of overboost, 2-steps, anti-lag, etc. I ran my GT4088R at 42-50psi for close to three years without failure, and that turbo was designed to be run at a maximum boost level of 37psi efficiently. If you looked at a compressor map for the GT4088R, I was WAY OFF the chart on both x and y-axis' (pressure ratio and flow). Essentially, it was being overspun severely and lived for a very long time where the journal bearing counterpart would have hand grenaded much earlier.

The goal for the Borg S374 1.1A/R housing setup, is to dyno it and then swap over a GT4202R with the 1.17A/R housing to see the overall efficiency characteristics and lifespan. Yes, the Borg is rebuildable and substantially cheaper, and has been shown to have a decent transient boost response, but I am interested in its spoolup characterisics (which can easily be adjusted via AEM EMS) at the same ignition timing scale as the GT4202R, and its durability at very high boost levels.

I plan on running this turbo at its maximum end of the spectrum, and will be putting it to the test. I hope that it will last, but we will definitely find out in the upcoming months when it is proven on the dyno.

Garrett GT CHRA's are worth their money -- though they may be overpriced, they are also extremely reliable ball-bearing center sections that are well proven. There is a reason that shops like Forced Performance and TiAL Sport, and ATP turbo all utilize Garrett GT CHRA's in their own custom turbo setups. They are quality, and worth the money.

 

[toofast82]

twicks69- How do you think the hx52 or hx55 would compare to these in terms of spool and power output?. We already know they can be had cheap and are durable.

 

[twicks69]

twicks69- How do you think the hx52 or hx55 would compare to these in terms of spool and power output?. We already know they can be had cheap and are durable.

I cannot tell you since I have absolutely no experience with the Holset HX-52 and HX-55. Again, they are journal bearing and cheap -- I would expect them to be slightly less efficient than the GT CHRA's and less durable at very high boost levels and high shaft speeds. The only way to tell is to try it though. I really do not like speculating, and I am unable to try one of these as well.

In this circumstance, I purchased the turbo for a very fair price, and will do a technical writeup on my experience with it once it is ready. My goal is to only prove or disprove its capabilities for power production, reliability, and the statement from people that it is faster spooling and makes more power than the GT4202R on the exact same setup.

We'll see soon enough.

 

[toofast82]

I cannot tell you since I have absolutely no experience with the Holset HX-52 and HX-55. Again, they are journal bearing and cheap -- I would expect them to be slightly less efficient than the GT CHRA's and less durable at very high boost levels and high shaft speeds. The only way to tell is to try it though. I really do not like speculating, and I am unable to try one of these as well.

In this circumstance, I purchased the turbo for a very fair price, and will do a technical writeup on my experience with it once it is ready. My goal is to only prove or disprove its capabilities for power production, reliability, and the statement from people that it is faster spooling and makes more power than the GT4202R on the exact same setup.

We'll see soon enough.

You pushed the 4088 past its limits! Cant wait to see the new results! Any other major changes?

 

[twicks69]

You pushed the 4088 past its limits! Cant wait to see the new results! Any other major changes?

Well, it is a new motor using a stock 2.4L 7-bolt crank, Groden aluminum rods, and custom Ross coated pistons. It will be reusing my cylinder head, and the only other updates are 1350cc injectors from MAPeformance, and the Borg S400SX 74mm turbo (from AGP Turbo) for right now.

I will need to fab up a new 4" downpipe, a 3" lower IC pipe, and a 5" intake pipe with new air filter. I will also need to do some reinforcement bracketry to hold the manifold, and will be running a new radiator/coolant line setup consisting of a smaller honda-style aluminum radiator with -20AN fittings and a SPAL 12" fan (I have a few if necessary to double up as a pusher/puller setup).

I will see what else is needed as I go. I might also try out a different camshaft setup later on. I am currently running Crower (Not Brian Crower) 288-degree customs with ~12mm lift.

 

[toofast82]

Well, it is a new motor using a stock 2.4L 7-bolt crank, Groden aluminum rods, and custom Ross coated pistons. It will be reusing my cylinder head, and the only other updates are 1350cc injectors from MAPeformance, and the Borg S400SX 74mm turbo (from AGP Turbo) for right now.

I will need to fab up a new 4" downpipe, a 3" lower IC pipe, and a 5" intake pipe with new air filter. I will also need to do some reinforcement bracketry to hold the manifold, and will be running a new radiator/coolant line setup consisting of a smaller honda-style aluminum radiator with -20AN fittings and a SPAL 12" fan (I have a few if necessary to double up as a pusher/puller setup).

I will see what else is needed as I go. I might also try out a different camshaft setup later on. I am currently running Crower (Not Brian Crower) 288-degree customs with ~12mm lift.

Sounds good
Are you going to be driving on the street with the aluminum rods? will you be doing retorquing and how frequently?
How much Whp/quartermile are you shooting for?

 

[twicks69]

Sounds good
Are you going to be driving on the street with the aluminum rods? will you be doing retorquing and how frequently?
How much Whp/quartermile are you shooting for?

Yes, this is still a street car. I will see what retorquing schedule I will follow.

Goals for this year are go make the car work, go down the track, and drive me to work and back -- all without breaking. Well....and 900+AWHP, and ~9.00 E.T.'s. We will see what happens when it happens....

 

[Supa Dexta]

That link doesn't work. But for 775$ its likely a non ETT turbo, so its just a big clunky turbo. To get the ETT version is usually nearly 2x more then that. ~1200-1400ish.

 

[twicks69]

That link doesn't work. But for 775$ its likely a non ETT turbo, so its just a big clunky turbo. To get the ETT version is usually nearly 2x more then that. ~1200-1400ish.

Actually, you are wrong. I purchased one (Through AGP Turbo). It is the Extended Tip Technology compressor wheel, and it is the properly flanged T4, not a T4.5, or anything else.

My turbo is a S374 a.k.a. Borg Warner S400SX 74mm inducer ETT compressor, 1.1 A/R T4.

*S400SX frame
*74.6mm compressor inducer/100.1 exducer
*GT-42=style or Series 60-style compressor cover (marked borg warner)
*5" Hose-style inlet, 4.21" V-band compressor cover outlet
*Oil cooled center section with applicable fittings that match a GT40/42 frame turbo
*83mm turbine inducer/74mm exducer
*1.1 A/R T4 divided w/ 4" V-band discharge



Here it is on my kitchen floor.



Last time I checked, Robert at FP was off-loading his Borg turbos below his cost price. He had S374 (1.1A/R T4), a S480 (T6 flange), and S371 (T4 flange). All of the turbos were being sold for $775.

If you are in the market for a turbo of this size, I would suggest picking it up NOW, as they won't be around for that long at these prices.

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

Im thinking of buying the 371 T4, any opinions on that?

I called on a price check and i was SHOCKED when i found out the pricing on that stuff!

 

[Slippi84]

I would actualy consider picking up a s374 at that price but I already have my hx52 and I like the billet wheel and want to see what it will do when pushed to the limit as well.

Just to give people a idea how cheap it is to rebuild I picked up my hx52 rebuild kit for $79 shipped. The GT42/r are great turbos but spending 2500 on a turbo just isn't for everyone.

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

Have yall ever taken a look at the turbonetics GT-K line?

 

[Slippi84]

Have yall ever taken a look at the turbonetics GT-K line?

I know the GT-k51 is a gt42r type beast turbo and looks smaller so it's kinda sleeper but they are also a expensive turbo.

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

My buddy has a gt-k550 on his car, and it spools up real quick. I was just wondering what yall think of them. They look cool too, and supposedly have a badass warranty.

 

[twicks69]

The Turbonetics GTK-1000 is the only turbo of that lineup that is near equivilant to the GT4202, GT4202R, Borg S374.

I can get that turbo (GTK-1000 -- Part # 11264) around $1625.00 through my contacts. I once was able to get the GT4202R for the same price and the GT42 for $1000.

The S374 for $775 was a smoking deal I couldn't pass up. The best I can do on it for future purchases would be around $900, plus tax and shipping through my local distributor (Fuel Systems, Inc).


The GTK-550 is a totally different turbo and is much more comparable to a GT35R. The GTK-650 to the GT4088R and the S362. The GTK-850 to the GT4094R and GT4294R and the S366. The GTK-1000 to the S372 and GT4202R.

 

[Slippi84]

Yeah I may be talking about a different turbo. The turbo I'm thinking of has a purple horn on the inlet and is rebuildable ball bearing turbo that is capable of gt42 type flow.

 

[twicks69]

Yeah I may be talking about a different turbo. The turbo I'm thinking of has a purple horn on the inlet and is rebuildable ball bearing turbo that is capable of gt42 type flow.

Are you thinking of the HKS T51KAI and T51SPL? These are equivilant of GT4294R (KAI version) and GT4202R (SPL version) in their ball bearing versions. Both turbo models are available in thrust bearing (T51 KAI and T51SPL) or ball bearing center cartridges (T51R KAI and T51R SPL), along with a V-Band Inlet Turbine housing.

HKS USA T51R SPL Turbo
They are substantially more expensive.

A much cheaper alternative would be to have a GT4294R or GT4202R with the TiAL V-Band Inlet Turbine housing (TiAL Sport.com).

 

[Slippi84]

Are you thinking of the HKS T51KAI and T51SPL? These are equivilant of GT4294R (KAI version) and GT4202R (SPL version) in their ball bearing versions. Both turbo models are available in thrust bearing (T51 KAI and T51SPL) or ball bearing center cartridges (T51R KAI and T51R SPL), along with a V-Band Inlet Turbine housing.

HKS USA T51R SPL Turbo
They are substantially more expensive.

A much cheaper alternative would be to have a GT4294R or GT4202R with the TiAL V-Band Inlet Turbine housing (TiAL Sport.com).

Yup those are the turbo's I was thinking of. HKS stuff is overpriced as well though that's why they aren't huge in the the dsm world either.

 

[twicks69]

Yup those are the turbo's I was thinking of. HKS stuff is overpriced as well though that's why they aren't huge in the the dsm world either.

You see them more on Skylines and Supras in Japan making high HP numbers.

Great turbos, but you can get the near equivilant from TiAL for much cheaper.

 

[slowgsr]

the hks t51r is a pretty badass turbo, my tuner uses it on his supra and makes over 900whp on the stock 2jz. This was on just 31lbs and the spool was great.

 

[andy4g63]

the hks t51r is a pretty badass turbo, my tuner uses it on his supra and makes over 900whp on the stock 2jz. This was on just 31lbs and the spool was great.

Yes, it is, but nothing beats Garret, even though, I am BW-Holset fan. Couple of years ago, there was this red EVO making 712 WHP @32PSI, I think with T 51 SPL. And did you guys see, what happened at CASTROL Challenge ???

AMS won, with 4g63 with GT4202 R making 1066 WHP. Some other guys, I think form Turbo magazine built he RB26DETT/stroked to 2.8/ with the Turbo in question HKS-T51SPL-R and made 966whp with 2.8L and six cylinder ?!?!?!?!?!...

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

Yes, it is, but nothing beats Garret, even though, I am BW-Holset fan. Couple of years ago, there was this red EVO making 712 WHP @32PSI, I think with T 51 SPL. And did you guys see, what happened at CASTROL Challenge ???

AMS won, with 4g63 with GT4202 R making 1066 WHP. Some other guys, I think form Turbo magazine built he RB26DETT/stroked to 2.8/ with the Turbo in question HKS-T51SPL-R and made 966whp with 2.8L and six cylinder ?!?!?!?!?!...

Isnt HKS stuff...or wasnt HKS stuff at one point in time developed/designed by garrett?

 

[slowgsr]

Yes, it is, but nothing beats Garret, even though, I am BW-Holset fan. Couple of years ago, there was this red EVO making 712 WHP @32PSI, I think with T 51 SPL. And did you guys see, what happened at CASTROL Challenge ???

AMS won, with 4g63 with GT4202 R making 1066 WHP. Some other guys, I think form Turbo magazine built he RB26DETT/stroked to 2.8/ with the Turbo in question HKS-T51SPL-R and made 966whp with 2.8L and six cylinder ?!?!?!?!?!...

I am also a bullseye/bw fan and I do agree, garret makes the best turbo's out there in my opinion. For my specific application bw's ett turbo's are perfect for me and fit into my budget nicely.

 

[andy4g63]

Isnt HKS stuff...or wasnt HKS stuff at one point in time developed/designed by garrett?

I am not sure about this particular one-T51-SPL, but alot of of others like:

HKS3037- GT 3076
HKS3040- GT 3082/FP 3065
HKS 3540-GT 35R

And a lot of smaller turbos like Garrett GT 20something...