Building my first engine

[DelTASteve]

Alright, this might turn out to be a little long, and maybe a bit to ambitious, but I don't think it can hurt to ask. I am 16, with my first car, and as a normal guy thing, I want my car to be faster (it's already plenty fast for me, but more speed can't be a bad thing). I own a 1994 Eagle Talon TSi (FWD). After a long time pondering, and lots of looking over how much I plan to make this summer, I have decided to build my own engine. I was just going to go ahead and save up for a SB complete block, but then I would not gain any knowledge, since it would not involve any work from me in putting it together. So I decided to build my own, no matter how long it takes.

I have very little knowledge about cars, espically DSM's. Mine runs very well, and is in GREAT shape, and I intend to keep it that way. So I decided to keep the engine that is in there, well, in there, and build my own engine, so I can do a swap when it is done. Therefore, still having my daily driver to get me back and forth to work.

So what I want to know, is where should I start? I know I am going to need a block and a head (6 Bolt of course), but what comes next? If this has already been answered, feel free to delete, but I failed to find very much useful information in my search.

Thanks Alot,

Steve

 

[keymaster]

I HIGHLY recommend NOT taking this project on with your experience level. Building an engine is a science, and not something you can just throw together in your garage. You need many specialized, expensive tools that you most likely don't have. You can, of course, buy the parts and have a machine shop assemble everything, and then you can swap it in, but that's not what it sounds like you want to do.

 

[Talonman92]

I agree with keymaster.

There is a sort of progression with gaining knowlege of cars on your own without a "teacher". First you get fed up paying for oil changes so you figure how to do it yourself. Next you figure if you can handle that you can maybe change your brake pads. After that you might notice your clutch slipping and you figure you would give it a shot. All the while your getting aquainted with your car and learning the ropes of doing work on cars.

Bottom Line: If you have little to no expirience with cars in general and doing work on them, you will create one big headache, and possibly an expensive problem instead of a high horspower machine. I would definately not recommend doing it.

On a side note, if your car is running great now whats the point of re-building, or just plain building another motor? Why don't ya just check out the free mods and the stage one ones on this site and see if any of them interest you.

 

[daren_p]

I have to agree with the others, you said yourself you have limited car knowledge, jumping in a building a motor from scratch isn't where you should be starting. Start with the basics, bolt on's etc. Once you get more knowledge you can start on "bolt-on" internals. Slapping a motor together is one thing but have it run/perform & last is another. More then likely you don't have the tools required to go about building a motor, which can add up to quite abit themselves.

 

[Lisij77]

if anyone cared for my thought, i'd say go for it...
BUT
don't count on completing the project in a month or so
get ready to spend lots of money
HIGHLY recommend to find somone in RL to tutor and help you

 

[VPrime]

Ummm did every one read his post fully? He is keeping the car and engine in one piece. and is just going to buy another engine to build in his garage. I thinkt hat would be okay to learn with?
though i really have no clue ont his, just thought i'd point out that he said he wont be touching the car until hes done

 

[Snobordin8]

If you are wanting to learn how to build a motor, I'd recommend starting small. My high school had a small engine class where they would have you find a 5hp Briggs and Stratton type of motor and walk you through the rebuild, which is a lot less complex than the 4G63. I'm sure you probably know someone who has an old dirt bike or go cart something with a small motor that needs rebuilt. Understanding how a motor works will help you learn to rebuild one. Work your way up.

 

[mra4886]

I say just get you a low milage 6bolt and just throw upgrades on it. And rebuild it when you brake it.

 

[Newlogics]

Alright, this might turn out to be a little long, and maybe a bit to ambitious, but I don't think it can hurt to ask. I am 16, with my first car, and as a normal guy thing, I want my car to be faster (it's already plenty fast for me, but more speed can't be a bad thing). I own a 1994 Eagle Talon TSi (FWD). After a long time pondering, and lots of looking over how much I plan to make this summer, I have decided to build my own engine. I was just going to go ahead and save up for a SB complete block, but then I would not gain any knowledge, since it would not involve any work from me in putting it together. So I decided to build my own, no matter how long it takes.

I have very little knowledge about cars, espically DSM's. Mine runs very well, and is in GREAT shape, and I intend to keep it that way. So I decided to keep the engine that is in there, well, in there, and build my own engine, so I can do a swap when it is done. Therefore, still having my daily driver to get me back and forth to work.

So what I want to know, is where should I start? I know I am going to need a block and a head (6 Bolt of course), but what comes next? If this has already been answered, feel free to delete, but I failed to find very much useful information in my search.

Thanks Alot,

Steve

I think you can pull this off. If you have mechanically-inclined mind-set, you'll do just fine.

For starters, decide if you are going to build a 7-bolt (which is what's in your car right now) or a 6-bolt motor (90-92). I would recommend 6-bolt. Try to get one that hasn't been bored et (85mm bore). Then, you'll need a crankshaft. Try to find 0-0 (unshaved) crank with no journal damage/scratches/chips.

Take block to the machine shop and have them inspect, bore and hone it. (It's always better to bring a piston you're planning to run to machine shop, so they can bore the block exactly to that piston, so aim for at least .020 over pistons).

Then decide what pistons/rods you want to go with. At this point, I would suggest stock or toplines. That will make things a little easier on you, if your engine should fail. Ruining a set of wisecos is depressing. Same goes for rods. Stick with 6-bolt big rods for now.

Obviously you'll need a set of rings, front cover/oil pump, water pump, full gasket set, ARP head studs, OEM timing belt, idler pulley, tensioner pulley and hydraulic tension adjuster.

That should allow you to build a long block.

If you have any questions at all, feel free to PM me. I'll help you out as much as I can.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Here is my take on it:

No matter what, building an engine will cost you more than 2000$. Trust me, I've tried doing it cheaper, and it will almost always end up over 2000$, even if you do it yourself.

I think you would be MUCH better off taking an autos class at the local community college or at your highschool in which they rebuild a chevy 350, or whatnot. Then when you can afford to do it, Go ahead. There is nothing wrong with learning. I would just recomend going with an OEM/Topline rebuild such that you have a minimum investement into the engine.

The only way you learn how to do something is by doing it. If you happen to have help in the form of a person, or a school, then it is just less likely that you'll make a mistake.


Since your car is running well, i'd focus on the auto class, and some "bolt on" mods so you learn more about your car, turbo, etc. It is always best to learn how something works before you try to fix it/repair it/rebuild it.

 

[DelTASteve]

Well, the cost is expected, and not too much of a worry for me (I work full time at Circiut City and cut grass on the weekends). I am going to look into taking a class at a community college or something (I wonder if they will let me take just one class?).

So what you are saying is to build as close to a stock engine as possible, and then begin modifying it? Thanks alot for the offer on the PM thing, get ready for lots of them when I figure out what I need.

 

[ericbev]

I am going to have to agree with darren and folks on this one. Building an entire engine from scratch isnt something I would personally reccomend especially with the aforementioned lack of expierience. The smallest overlooked detail can have the potential to create a financial and emotoinal disaster that could have been avoided if you had waited till you were sufficiently educated.

You dont need an entire longblock to make your car faster. Have you upgraded your turbo or anything yet? If your current motor is running strong why are you already wanting to build a whole motor?

Start small and take on something a little more technical each time and you will gain more and more conifdence in yourself and your abilities.

 

[mra4886]

Since your car is running well, i'd focus on the auto class, and some "bolt on" mods so you learn more about your car, turbo, etc. It is always best to learn how something works before you try to fix it/repair it/rebuild it.

Agreed dont fix what isnt broke.

 

[DelTASteve]

I would prefer to keep my motor running strong, as I need it to get to and from work and school, every day. My school does not offer busing, so I need to have this car running for school time. I would rather not push my luck on an engine that already has over 100K miles on it, by putting things like new turbo's and such on it.

 

[keymaster]

You're asking for headaches and problems if you don't take the time to learn about your car. When I got my DSM, it was stock except for a BOV and air filter. First, I bought an ebay intake and installed it myself, easy as pie. Then, an MBC, also, really easy. Then, after getting really sick of the T25, upgraded to a 14b and 3" exhaust. Did the turbo swap myself, and it also turned out to not be terribly complicated. 14b turned out to be blown, so I got a s16g to put in, that one was even easier since I knew what I was doing this time. Then moved on to fuel pump, DSMLink and injectors, all still pretty easy. Somewhere in all that I forgot to mention I put in a big SMIC, again, simple. Bought an ACT 2600 clutch and had it installed professionally, since transmissions scare me, and I really didn't want to f*ck mine up. After all that was done, it stayed as it was for quite awhile.

Well, as can be prone to happen with 7-bolts and 2600 clutches, I crankwalked. Ok, good excuse for a 6-bolt swap. Bought a JDM 6-bolt, and found some very knowledgable DSM'ers in the Chicago area to help me with the swap. We started tearing down my new 6-bolt to change the timing components and discovered that the BS shaft belt had snapped, causing the motor to skip timing and smash all the intake valves. Luckily, they had a spare head lying around that we slapped my 7-bolt cams into, and we were back in business. Through that entire weekend, which probably totalled around 36 hours of work total, I learned GOBS about how to work on the engine itself. I feel pretty confident now, that I could pull the motor or trans myself without too much worry. If I had the tools, I'd also feel pretty good about doing a basic rebuild.

My point in all this rambling, is that it's a process and you should follow a certain progression in learning about your car.

 

[nightspeed87]

Well if your trying to build everything completely by your self then good luck
but dont be surprised that when you get it in the car and go flying down the road on a hard
3rd gear pull that bolts dont start shooting out from inproper torque specs, and that valves and pistons dont hit from inproper timing and all the other mishaps of doing this yourself......

Ive just had a 6bolt build up for my 93 eclipse, and I didnt do any of the work myself but half the time my tuner worked on it he showed me how it was done, gave pointers, advice, and I picked up a lot of knowledge over engines that you wouldnt learn in forums or listening to ppl who think they know something but never experienced what they were talking about..... Find a reputable tuner who could help you do it, and then it wouldnt be such a bad idea.... But going in alone, theres no guarantee your coming back.....

 

[talnteddriver29]

IMO

Before you even start one of the most complicated Automotive tasks....As most of the Guys have already mentioned.

1. You better have a engine stand, engine hoist, jack stands, air tools, etc.

2. You damn as well know every Auto-part in your dsm. You don't want to leave any pieces out of the rebuild.

3. If you have all the above, It wouldn't help to team up with a buddy. My personal reccomendation. I always do it because 2 heads are better than 1. Unless he doesn't know anything

4. You can do it. Use V-faq.com and when you cannot find something, post a thread. Ie- DSM Tuners. Talk, Source, 2g, Style, etc. There are a lot of very experienced DSMers online

5. If you have the mentality and are prepared for the unexpected. I think your ready.(If i missed anything. Inform me)

Good Luck on your Journey

 

[ivanr4g63]

Just an idea of what your getting yourself into:

Find a good 6 bolt bottom end, assuming it was running you'll need to replace oil pump, gaskets, remove balance shafts, replace main bearings and rod bearings, piston rings, remove jets and clean thorougly all the inner oil passages of the block (well the machine shop should do this) also hone the cilinders.

Wich brings the following questions:
How to remove balance shaft?
Wich piston rings to use?
Wich oil pump?
How to replace?
Wich bearings to use?
Wich oil to use on motor break-in period?
etc, etc,

Sometimes the machine shop will polish your crankshaft and be ok with it, but sometimes depending on the mileage you'll have to grind it...

Then you'll do a search on this and realize that is not a good idea to grind a 4g63 crankshaft

assuming everything else went ok, you'll need to move on to the cylinder head:

Need to have it milled, hot-tanked, replace valve stem seals, maybe the guides, and maybe the valves as well... if high mileage cosider replacing springs and reatiners, have the cams lobes checked to factory specs, while at this replace lifters for 3rd gens, get a good headgasket according to your goals, and ARP studs

Wich valves?
Wich stem seals?
Where to buy a valve srping compressor for cheap?
WIch headgasket to use?
Are ARP really needed?

Then after all this you jump onto timing belt install and you'll need:

Idler puller, timing puller, auto tensioner, timing belts, and doing it right, because this is a very vital part of the build up

At wich point you'll be at vfaq.com checking out several timing belt installations steps and procedures...

Im sure I missed alot of steps in between, but this is just to give you an idea of what you're getting yourself into and all the questions you're going to run into and more...

Not to mention that you'll need more than a few wrenches, ratchets and screwdrivers to acomplish and engine build-up

Now, the point of all this is NOT to stop you from doing it... is just to make you realize if this is what you want to do, and every answer to the above questions you can find here because they've been asked before many many times... so my sugestion to you is:

Do alot and alot more of research on all this, and after that if you think you can do it, then you go right ahead... we'll be here to give you a hand with problems that may come along before, during and after the process...! the satisfaction of doing it yourself is great, I should know, but if money is tight, then think about it twice.

Best of lucks on your decision!

 

[90 TSI FWD]

i'm 16 too and got this non running a/t 1g awd with a good motor with 80k miles for $400, so i pulled the motor out with a lift i rented for $20, and recently tore it apart and plan on building it when i get a good job and when i graduate from highschool, so in other words, you can still learn things by pulling an engine apart, but dont plan on making progress anytime soon, but in the future, i find it may be easier to buy a complete rebuild kit and gasket kit, rebuild the head at a shop and machine the block at a shop. which all in all would require alot of money, which us 16 year olds dont have. the timing belt part will be interesting for you. it took my and my brother three tries to get it straight, but definitely learned alot. as long as you know how Everything in your engine works, it shouldnt be so hard. just prepare for alot of reading and get alot of tools.. good luck

 

[eldiabloz13]

DO THE DAMN BUILD. You'll never know unless you try. Now like some people suggest go to a class is a awesome idea. Make friends in the auto industry and people who have free time to help you. Im 17 just got a tsi awd and im going to have a ball with this car. Im kind of in the same stance as you but i have many people to help. Plus i get it done for cheap . I have a friend that his uncle's owns a machine shop and can get my engine bored for nearly free. Now if that list above is a lot to you dont do the build. Those parts arent cheap. It will be a awesome way to learn on the other hand just buy a manual or get the dvd and your all set. Search and ask questions. If you anything like me you feel doing this would be the funnest thing around right now and man i hear ya. Dont let people change your mind so quick but rather see it as they know first hand and want to show you it sure as hell isnt going to go smooth on every piece.

Now with that said i have some questions also . Any one have a web page that shows you how to pull a engine. I can have people help me but i learn and remember where thinsg went if i did them. Also do you have a site that sells all the gaskets and seals i will need for a rebuild. Plus this tsi has 185k on it. What do you think ill need to do as far as machining goes. Now should i also buy 2g pistons 1g rods(with less miles then mine of course) or should i just order brand new stock ones from mitsu. How about replaceing hoses. Can i just go out to the pluming store and get that hose or do i have to special order it. Because if i see some hoses are bad im going to replace them.

 

[keymaster]

If you're going to do a full rebuild, save the extra money and get forged pistons and rods. Do it once, do it right. It'll give you an extra safety margin, since I'm sure you're new to tuning too.

 

[drivemusicnow]

If you're going to do a full rebuild, save the extra money and get forged pistons and rods. Do it once, do it right. It'll give you an extra safety margin, since I'm sure you're new to tuning too.

I disagree. Even if you're buying rods, and pistons you'll end up spending almost 600$ more for a forged setup rather than the 1g/2g setup.


And the extra safety margin is doubtful at best. If you detonate, it'll blow the eff out of whatever piston you have in the cylinder. The only thing reason taht I would go with forged pistons (and I am) is if you're doing a stroker 2.3, or planning for over 500hp at the crank.


Don't thow money away on stuff that just isn't necessary.

 

[keymaster]

Forged internals offer much more resistance to detonation, that's just a fact. If I had had the money when I did my 6-bolt, I would have put in forged pistons and rods. To me, it's worth the expense, especially when you're new to tuning like the posters above.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Forged internals offer much more resistance to detonation, that's just a fact.

Prove it. and by prove it, I mean I want some cold, hard technical facts that shows that when an engine detonates, a forged rod/piston will fair a significantly better chance at no damage than a stock 1g rod and 2g piston.


I'm serious. What types of pressures/loads/temperatures are made when you truly "detonate"? I'm not talking about a little bit of pre-ignition, I'm talking about detonation.

What types of pressures/loads/temperatures can a forged setup handle compared to a stock setup?


If you can't answer those questions then it is not a fact. Now, if you're going to be running your engine to the ragged edge, and say... Taking a 20g car to make as much power as absolutely possible. You're running this car with the most timing and boost you can manage, it is POSSIBLE that the occasional pre-ignition that the car would see would be better handled by forged rod and piston than a stock one. But how many people run their cars on the absolute edge of blowing up? But even then, this is not proven.

Truthfully, in my opinion, unless your shooting for the 500hp mark, you don't need aftermarket rods and pistons. Spend your money on quality machining, and OEM oilpump/timing belt/tensioner etc.

 

[eldiabloz13]

fordeged internals are no point for me. Plus i hear they wear down your motor or themselves quicker. Due to piston slap. They can just take more pressure thats all. Now any more takes on my questions. Also i am kind of new to tuning on the 4g63 not other cars. Iv helped with the install of a 16g and fmic on a 1g though so i know a little to it. Also to install fuel injectors and fuel pump too.