Building a engine for high HP.

[slowgsr]

Hi, Im building a 6 bolt 4g63 from a NT, no squirters. Im keeping it a 2.0L and planning to rev it to aprox 9000.

For the bottom end im going with a basic weisco piston - manley 'turbo tuff' rod, ACL bearings, stock crank, kiggly gridle, arp main studs. Otherwise I will use mitsu timing parts as well as the oil pump, gaskets at seals, L19 head studs, and a fluidamper.

Im not exactly what I want to do with the head yet, probably just clean up the ports and portmatch, new guides and seals and some 280 cams.

The machinist has never build a 4g63 for high power before, but he is very experienced with race V8's and is not bias towards 4 cylinders. I just want to know what area's need attention on these motors? Currently the block is being hot tanked, as well as the crank than both pieces will be magnafluxed and the crank will be inspected.

I will be line honing the crank to make sure everything is straight with the gridle installed, and going 20 thous over on the bore. As far as the crank goes, if the crank NEEDS to be turned on is there any negative effects of doing this? He was saying some cranks the surfaces are hardened and when you turn them they need to be re-hardened, or others often crome them after they turn them and run OE size bearings.. he dosen't like doing it this way.

Im hoping the crank is fine, but if its off slighly, any ill effects of turning? Any hardening I will be going though?

I still have to determine what P2W clearance I want to run, I will probably have him build this engine a little on the loose side since I plan to make some decent power with it.

Are there any other parts that need to see special attention? He was talking about making something so the center point between the piston pin and the other end of the rod are all exactly the same, and so that the centerline of the crank to the deck of the block is exactly the same, and centerline of each cylinder is center to the journal on the crank and just sounding like keeping everything very square. I think the 4g63 is fairly good? I want to avoid having this done due to cost.

Any other clearances or parts that need special attention?

Thanks!

 

[dsm-onster]

Pay attention to your head. The block just needs forged internals with a proper line honing to the big end. Eagle does this at the factory, I dont' know about your rods.

Also you went with the better piston IMHO. The higher silicone content pistons are lighter for higher rpm usage, but they are less forgiving. For the 9K range I would not at all hesitate to use heavier, 'more aluminum' pistons; like Wiseco or Ross. I like Wiseco. Your short block combination should be capable of 700whp reliably. I don't want to steer you from some piece of mind, but I don't think the Kiggle girdle is even neccesary. This will save the cost for the girdle and for the honing.

I wouldn't bother machining a set of manley rods (evening the centers of the big end and small end), unless you need to line hone the big end; and again the eagle rods don't need this done, I dont know if the manleys even need this done ( wouldn't think so). Jus tbe sure of the wristpin offset designed into the pistons. I'm sure your machinist knows about this. I don't think that is just an I4 thing.

Follow the wiseco ring instructions to the T for your application and goal for the car.

The manley rods come with arp 2000 rpd bolts, correct? Proper torquing of these is critical. You want to break in the threads and then torque to a certain stretch. At least toque to 43-45 ft-lbs after breaking in the threads. My eagle rods instructions said to torque to 75ft-lbs . Boy is that off! I don't know about the manley instructions.

I feel there's nothign at all wrong with turning a crank. You can go .01" and still ahve 100% nitriding. Nitriding treatment does not make the crank more durable for high HP. It makes the surface treated harder to prevent scoring. I've yet to cut an engine off before I scored a fresh uncut crank, once I noticed a problem. So I think nitriding is a little overrated to begin with. If you need to cut the crank and run over sized bearings. Too many have made too much HP with a cut crank to worry about it.

 

[rbwtrans]

I also like to have my crank, flywheel, pressure plate, balancer combo spin balanced together. Another couple of hours to balance the pistons and rods. The decks are usually .002 taller on one end than the other - no big deal, but if you're going to be anal, then a deck surface. If you're going to run over 30 psi then I'd add a lttle extra gap to the top 2 rings. Don't forget (I almost assume) the balance shaft elimination. Another thing I like to do is get two sets of mains and use just the grooved shells for the top and the bottom. Port the oil feed to the head after resurfacing or you'll restrict oil flow to the head.

 

[dsm-onster]

Port the oil feed to the head after resurfacing or you'll restrict oil flow to the head.

Did not know about this!!! Is this a 1g head or 2g head thing or both? That's something almost anyone can do at home to help insure proper oil flow to the head for high revving. Lifter tick at 9K is death.

Also, I wouldn't bother with the arp main studs. You'll have to get the mains line honed just for those. And the stockers have done something like 900whp or more : ). So for you, you would save quite a bit with losing the girdle and the arp mains and then not having to line hone the block.

 

[rbwtrans]

The small groove at the corner bolt hole only gets smaller with resurfacing. A small re-port after resurfacing will ensure proper (if not a little more) oil to the top of the valve train (and turbo for us 1g guys). My machinist started doing this for my engines a few years ago and it really helps with the tick. If you put a little thought into it it really makes sense.

 

[slowgsr]

Thanks everyone, great info on the porting of the oil passage. I will be sure to have him do this. I will be using the kiggly gridle, arp main studs and having it line honed, im anal about 'over' building things.

I will hear from him friday about the condition of the block i brought him, he hot tanked the block/crank and magnafluxed both and will inspect crank to determine if it needs to be turned. Than I can order parts.

Do any of you feel that i need to install the oil squirters? I should be fine without them correct? When i built my honda engine i never ran them either it went plenty fast.

 

[twicks69]

If you are going to be running ARP main studs and align-honing, you will need to have a proper torque plate and torque the head studs with moly to spec for align honing purposes so that the mains are "straight" before honing so that you keep your proper main bore hone when the engine is assembled.

I would also run Eagle off-the-shelf rods over Manley turbotuff's for simplicity and overall consistency without requiring any real sort of grinding other than proper engine rotating assembly clearancing.

 

[bling5tatus]

If you use expensive "race" bearings made out of tri-metal and all that other shit, they're harder and when shit does let go in your motor it eats your crank and not the bearings.

I like the cheapest bearings possible... my friend runs them in his race car that did 10's also... so yeah... if you care about your crank try to avoid using those expensive "race type" bearings.

I know everyone's going to disagree with this, but that's fine, doesn't change the color on my tv.

 

[99gst_racer]

If you use expensive "race" bearings made out of tri-metal and all that other shit, they're harder and when shit does let go in your motor it eats your crank and not the bearings.

I like the cheapest bearings possible... my friend runs them in his race car that did 10's also... so yeah... if you care about your crank try to avoid using those expensive "race type" bearings.

I know everyone's going to disagree with this, but that's fine, doesn't change the color on my tv.

That's actually completely wrong. The color on your TV doesn't make your misinformation factual and/or correct.

The outer two layers of a tri-metal bearing are a babbitt and a moly/graphite layer. The primary duty of the outer moly/graphite layer is to reduce friction and drag. Behind that moly and graphite layer, is the babbitt layer. Babbitt has physical properties similar to solder. It's very soft, so it allows it to conform to minor surface imperfections as well as absorb dirt and other wear particles that pass through the bearing's clearance space. Both layers are very soft and offer excellent embedability to resist damage from debris - pretty much the exact opposite from what you just said.

The Bi-metal bearings are much harder and less forgiving. They won't conform as well to minor imperfections of geometry and imperfections of mating parts. This is why they're only recommended for light duty applications and original equipment replacements.

 

[bling5tatus]

Ok, maybe I had it slightly wrong.

What I'm saying is, the cheap bearings are fine... they've gone over 40 passes on a friend's car and he takes his oil pan off to inspect after every race day... bearings CONTINUE to look fine and they're the absolute cheapest machine shop bearings. I used the same in my car and had the same results as well. If you want to over spend on bearings, then fine... most people do.

 

[slowgsr]

If you are going to be running ARP main studs and align-honing, you will need to have a proper torque plate and torque the head studs with moly to spec for align honing purposes so that the mains are "straight" before honing so that you keep your proper main bore hone when the engine is assembled.

I would also run Eagle off-the-shelf rods over Manley turbotuff's for simplicity and overall consistency without requiring any real sort of grinding other than proper engine rotating assembly clearancing.

Tim, do you recommend I simply just run off eagle rods, and some weisco pistons? and ditch the gridle and main studs and just run stock bolts? I might be better off to just keep it simple? It would save me some money.

Do I need to use a torque plate when boring the cylinders? I believe I do, I may just pick up the JM fab one, i do have an extra set of arp headstuds sitting around that can be used for the process

 

[twicks69]

It depends on your power levels and your overall application. The ARP stuff, girdle, etc. are great high-quality parts that can be used, but are not a requirement for every person's buildup.

I am just telling you to look at your application, your goals, and your budget.

If you are going to use the girdle, and ARP main studs, you will need to have the engine block align-honed with a proper torque plate.

Just remember that if you are going to use high-end parts, it will require more attention to detail, and more machinework to be properly assembled


Personally, I had great experiences with the Eagle rods as they held up great on my 7-bolt stroker for a very long time of considerable abuse. $300 off the shelf rods.

 

[1SloColt]

First off, forget the ARP main cap studs and the kiggly girdle. Run stock 1g main cap bolts without the girdle. Second, skip the Wiseco block crackers and buy a good piston. The rods are fine. It is common knowledge that the 1g cylinder head receives boat loads of oil, sometimes too much, so don't worry about it when the head is slightly decked. I personally suggest a fresh uncut crank, but its up to you. Don't worry about balancing the rotating assembly. As long as the pistons match in mass, as do the rods, and the crank is in good shape then you'll be fine.

 

[slowgsr]

It depends on your power levels and your overall application. The ARP stuff, girdle, etc. are great high-quality parts that can be used, but are not a requirement for every person's buildup.

I am just telling you to look at your application, your goals, and your budget.

If you are going to use the girdle, and ARP main studs, you will need to have the engine block align-honed with a proper torque plate.

Just remember that if you are going to use high-end parts, it will require more attention to detail, and more machinework to be properly assembled


Personally, I had great experiences with the Eagle rods as they held up great on my 7-bolt stroker for a very long time of considerable abuse. $300 off the shelf rods.

Thanks.

Heres what I plan to do. Tomorrow I will hear if everything came back alright. If the crank is good and dosen't need to be turned I will just keep the crank the way it is, run the stock main bolts and simply just drop is some rods/pistons. If there is any issue with the crank I will just purchase a stroker kit and drop that in, again no line hone, no gridle, less time and money.

Is it vital to use a torque plate if i want to bore 20 over? I did some searching, others sware by it, others don't and never had any problem. If I can't safely, what would you guys think by just inspecting the cylinders and than giving it a hone and using OE size pistons?

So 2 major options, stock stroke.. either with OS pistons or OE, and a stroker with OE pistons or OS. Both will depend of condition of crank, and if I go 20 over without a torque plate.

The gridle wasn't that expensive and I may just keep it for future. The car needs a cage now anyways, 2 tenths and they won't let me run, so I will need to get that in as well.

Thanks

Can I re-use my stock rod bolts?

 

[e85_4g63]

Can I re-use my stock rod bolts?

Absolutely NOT. I mean you can. You can also reuse your bearings, but would you? ARP rod bolts for 1g's are less then $40

 

[TOONAH]

If you rev your engine to 9K rpms, you better have the rotating assembly balanced. That is if you can find somebody to do it. And it won't be cheap. You never re-use bearings. You always replace the oil pump.
Unless you increase the engine throughput by 25% you will get no more horsepower after 7.5K rpm's anyway.