Rod for high hp street build?

[tbird]

Hey guys. Trying to decide on a good rod to go with... for high hp.. car will be driven about 3-5k a year, I was thinking about groden aluminum rods. but I cant decide.... I am willing to pull the pan every oil change to inspect them... But I want somthing that is going to last along time, and not beat its self or bearings to death.

 

[h8r]

I would stay away from Aluminum rods for the street... They are light but the can not handle the heat of DD IMO. The rods tend to stretch with heat.. More questions need to be addressed .. What are you goals? High Hp to you may be low boost hp to some. Also, you do not have anything for the mods you already have in your profile.

 

[JWoodley]

I highly recommend crower and ross in regards to internals. PM twicks69 and ask about his setup. Thats what I did, you can learn alot from him.

 

[tbird]

My profile hasnt been updated in like 5 years haha.... anyways I am building a gt42 car and hoping for 7-800 hp.. at the crank.... I am going to be doing a slow build... The car will mainly be for the weekend and the track.. but will see some street times....

 

[TurboAnything]

That is my ultimate goal for my car i would look in to Aluminum Rods there are only two or three companies making them the cheapest i found them was like $580. Those with the JE pistons with the quench pads on top to aid in the squish effect. eBay Motors: 4G63 Turbo Billet Aluminum Rods - Eclipse/Talon/DSM (item 250184582585 end time Feb-04-08 02:36:30 PST) JEPistons.com | JE Pistons Sport Compact - MITSUBISHI - 1988-92 ECLIPSE / TALON / EVO 4G63 21MM PIN

 

[95AWD_TSI_TALON]

Its amazing all the rumors about aluminum rods. I have grodens in my motor now. Tho I have not gotten to do anything with them yet I did PLENTY of research on this stupid retorquing hear-say. IT IS ALL A LIE. The big thing with aluminum rods is you need to let the car warm up properly (as you should with a forged motor!). ALOT of people have DD on the grodens and have put 6-10k miles on them street driving for 2 years+ now. And retorquing them is the worst thing to do. Would need to get a bolt stretch guage, and even doing this is over kill.

But the bigger issue at hand....eagles have done 700-800 and I still have never seen an eagle fail do to HP level. The benifit of the aluminum is over time on the higher HP cars (700hp+) it is easier on the rod bearings as the steel rods will kill the rod bearing around 10k mark.
Matt

On a side note- if you are looking for grodens and 40 over 8.3 wisco's PM me. I am selling mine only due to plans have changed and I have to get the larger wristpin pistons/rods. I am staying aluminum rod!

 

[h8r]

Agreed with the warm up! They tend to be very brittle when cold... No quick snaps of the throttle until she is up to temp. I would just put some Pauter rods in it..Call it good. I just don't like them(alu. rods) on the street.

 

[twicks69]

tbird -- first off you should please put much more detail into what you are expecting from the car, along with what kind of budget you are working with. This is no cheap/easy task at hand, and a quick little answer is not the right one in this circumstance.

To answer your current comments; please first update your vehicle profile with all of your modifications you currently have so that I don't have to tell you something that you may already have done.

Now...The Eagle Rod/Ross Piston combo has lasted over 39,000 miles, and 3 years with my current setup making 962HP at the crank on my GT4088R. The car made 500AWHP/460tq (650HP at the crank) on 22psi and pump gas, and now makes 740AWHP/696tq on 49psi and VP IMPORT. I refreshed the motor in spring of 2007 and replaced the rings and bearings -- the rings were fine, but the bearings were getting worn out because of my "butcher" knive-edged, lightweight crank. The bearing wear was due to the crank flexing under high boost, causing additional wear on the inner main bearings and the split thrust bearing. It did not fail; it just got worn out. Mind you, this was 35,000 street miles, well over 150 track passes, and over 150 high boost dyno pulls in 2 years, and around 50 track passes, 60 dyno pulls and 4,000 street miles since the rebuild.

The Eagle Rods are holding up just fine, and I would reccomend going with a ceramic coated Ross Piston. I personally used Darren at FFWD Connection since at the time, stroker pistons were a custom thing for the 4G63 and I had his "S.O.B." ceramic coating done, along with cryotreating of the pistons, rods, bearings and butchered 7-bolt stroker crank.

All in all, if I were going to do it over again in a street car, I would do Ross Ceramic Coated Pistons, Eagle Rods or Crower Rods, Eagle 2.4L 7-bolt crank, ACL or Clevite Coated Bearings in my 1999 block. In your case, do a 6-bolt setup with the parts above.

As well, you will be better off going with a Garrett GT4088R or GT4094R over the GT4294R since the footprint is smaller and easier to work with in a street car while retaining the stock radiator and using a passenger side slim-line fan (SPAL fan). For Exhaust Manifolds, the DN Performance T4 Tubular Divided Flange Exhaust Manifold fits easily with a 44mm TiAL external wastegate and boost control is solid with a TurboSmart manual boost controller.

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As for the turbine side on the turbo, I would go with a 0.96A/R divided T4 flange with V-Band outlet and a 3" turbo-back exhaust. It is streetable and cost-effective.



Finally, I do agree with the previous comments regarding cold startup--it is always important to have the engine come to proper operating temperatures before boosting it or flogging it--that is common sense--if it isn't, you all should do it even if your motor is stock. It will like you alot more.

 

[fulanititoo8198]

^ I Always like your post, they are actually informative.

 

[tbird]

Hey thanks for the great responces, I plan to spend 12-13k in mods.. I could spend more but im going to limit myself to that.... My main goal is a car that I can get in and drive around town... take the kids on a ride or whatnot..... and goto the track and run 9.99.... now in horse power... Id like to make 800+ for the past 8 years ive dreamed of a car that could keep up with some bikes, and now I have a chance to do it.. and want to do it right...

 

[tbird]

and by the way... I am starting off with a bone stock 92 dsm... 6/4 combo...

 

[tbird]

Here are my current plans for those curious.... Will be starting the buying process soon enough....


1992 Eclipse gsx,
Motor, Ross pistons, unsure on rods...
Head light port job by local... bc 280 cams.
shearerfab top mount manifold.... gt4294 turbo
8 gallon fuel cell, a1000 pump, 1600cc injectors,
aem with 5 bar map.
ipt trans, ipt converter


some of you might think I will go over my budget... But I will be doing most/all fabrication my self along with a couple of local friends,

 

[tbird]

should have just made one post but oh well haha.... I did not think eagle rods could take that kind of abuse! Really makes me rethink alot of my build now... Did you have anything done to them before they went into the motor? I have always been scared of them because of all the stories I read about them snapping and being harsh on bearings.... but like I said Im not to worred about pulling the pan every few thousand miles if need be..... I will also rethink the gt42... and I would def like to get the dnp manifold that would be a big savings right there...

 

[twicks69]

Here are my current plans for those curious.... Will be starting the buying process soon enough....


1992 Eclipse gsx,
Motor, Ross pistons, unsure on rods...
Head light port job by local... bc 280 cams.
shearerfab top mount manifold.... gt4294 turbo
8 gallon fuel cell, a1000 pump, 1600cc injectors,
aem with 5 bar map.
ipt trans, ipt converter


some of you might think I will go over my budget... But I will be doing most/all fabrication my self along with a couple of local friends,

Save your money and do the following:
*DN Performance T4 tubular manifold
*Garrett GT4094R -- THIS CAN AND WILL MAKE 800AWHP -- that is 1050HP at the crank.
*Be damn sure that your local guy knows exactly where the restrictions are in a 1G head before he does any porting. It needs very little, and will likely be just fine with a good resurface, 1mm oversize intake/ stock size exhaust stainless steel swirl polished back-cut valves, and a 5-angle intake/radial exhaust valve job, bronze valve guides, good valve seals (mitsu blue ones), dual valve springs, your bc 280 cams, a mitsubishi multi-layer steel head gasket and ARP head studs.

*I personally am not a fan of the Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump for street use. You CAN run 9's on a Walboro 255HP in-tank and a Walboro 255-inline with 1000cc injectors. I WOULD reccomend going with a 1150cc-1600cc injector size range, and at least a -6AN fuel feed with a -6ANfuel return.

These simple details will save you well over $1000 that you can spend on things like --
*SAFETY
*BRAKES
*SUSPENSION

--I would reccomend going with a wilwood brake kit from Todd at TCE Performance Products (TCE PERFORMANCE) with a size depending on what rim size you are going to use for slicks. A 16" rim would be ideal, and running a 12.2"x0.81" rotor or a 12.2"x1.00" rotor with a set of Wilwood Forged Superlite calipers would easily stop you. For the rear, I would reccomend a good set of stock rotors with brake lines, and just a set of metalmaster green or EBC green pads.

 

[SBR Joe]

My profile hasnt been updated in like 5 years haha.... anyways I am building a gt42 car and hoping for 7-800 hp.. at the crank.... I am going to be doing a slow build... The car will mainly be for the weekend and the track.. but will see some street times....

Manley or Crower I beams will hold up well at these numbers.


Joe

 

[1qkfwd]

Here are my current plans for those curious.... Will be starting the buying process soon enough....


1992 Eclipse gsx,
Motor, Ross pistons, unsure on rods...
Head light port job by local... bc 280 cams.
shearerfab top mount manifold.... gt4294 turbo
8 gallon fuel cell, a1000 pump, 1600cc injectors,
aem with 5 bar map.
ipt trans, ipt converter


some of you might think I will go over my budget... But I will be doing most/all fabrication my self along with a couple of local friends,

I wouldn't agree with using the A1000 either in your situation. Do some research before you purchase that pump. They suport fuel for high HP low fuel pressure applications. You might want to look into the dual walbro 255s or the bosch 044s.

 

[JayRolla]

Save your money and do the following:
*DN Performance T4 tubular manifold
*Garrett GT4094R -- THIS CAN AND WILL MAKE 800AWHP -- that is 1050HP at the crank.
*Be damn sure that your local guy knows exactly where the restrictions are in a 1G head before he does any porting. It needs very little, and will likely be just fine with a good resurface, 1mm oversize intake/ stock size exhaust stainless steel swirl polished back-cut valves, and a 5-angle intake/radial exhaust valve job, bronze valve guides, good valve seals (mitsu blue ones), dual valve springs, your bc 280 cams, a mitsubishi multi-layer steel head gasket and ARP head studs.

*I personally am not a fan of the Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump for street use. You CAN run 9's on a Walboro 255HP in-tank and a Walboro 255-inline with 1000cc injectors. I WOULD reccomend going with a 1150cc-1600cc injector size range, and at least a -6AN fuel feed with a -6ANfuel return.

These simple details will save you well over $1000 that you can spend on things like --
*SAFETY
*BRAKES
*SUSPENSION

--I would reccomend going with a wilwood brake kit from Todd at TCE Performance Products (Welcome!) with a size depending on what rim size you are going to use for slicks. A 16" rim would be ideal, and running a 12.2"x0.81" rotor or a 12.2"x1.00" rotor with a set of Wilwood Forged Superlite calipers would easily stop you. For the rear, I would reccomend a good set of stock rotors with brake lines, and just a set of metalmaster green or EBC green pads.

I agree with everything but the dual walbro fuel pumps. If you have one pump and it fails then your motor will shut off from loss of fuel. If you have two pumps and one fails your motor will self destruct from running lean. Just my .02.

 

[wishihadatalon]

I agree with everything but the dual walbro fuel pumps. If you have one pump and it fails then your motor will shut off from loss of fuel. If you have two pumps and one fails your motor will self destruct from running lean. Just my .02.

Pay attention One single fuel pump on its last leg will go lean, so will maxing out a fuel pump Dual fuel pumps have been proven to work really well, and are sold by many of the top DSM vendors as a kit.

 

[95AWD_TSI_TALON]

Some people have different thoughts on the A1000. And some people just repeat other people experiences. As all I ever hear about the A1000 is "my buddy's buddy had one and it burned up".

Back in the day, I ran an A1000 on my T66 base FP@45 and pushing 35psi, no issues for over a year DD.

But I guess alot of people are also over looking the 044 bosch pump aswell. Which in all honesty, will out flow an A1000 across the board by far. Plus its is an OEM pump. Let alone cheaper stright up and cheaper to install aswell.
Matt

 

[TurboAnything]

yes the A1000 is a big mistake poor quality is the name of the game with that pump. I am a dual walbro guy and just finished a setup in a buddies car that worked perfect even though he did not need it only 505hp. That car also had 1150cc FIC injectors and i do not think they are big enough for you setup you want to build. Porting a 1g head is like flirting with a stripper it dose almost nothing for you so minimal is key.

 

[tbird]

Again thanks for all the help... I am going to go with the gt40, and dnp combo... I will think about the fuel situation.... rods are still up in the air haha... might just give the eagles a try

 

[90laserRSfwd]

I would stay away from Aluminum rods for the street... They are light but the can not handle the heat of DD IMO. The rods tend to stretch with heat.. More questions need to be addressed .. What are you goals? High Hp to you may be low boost hp to some. Also, you do not have anything for the mods you already have in your profile.

Don't post something you don't know about... ALUMINUM RODS DON'T STRETCH ENOUGH TO CAUSE PROBLEMS. IT'S THE ROD BOLTS THAT STRETCH AND THATS IT.... THIS IS WHY PEOPLE DON'T USE THE ALUMINUM RODS IN STREET CARS BECAUSE OF POSTINGS LIKE YOURS.

I'm not trying to be a pain about this but I read this same LIE all the time. I have had a 2.0L 4g63 with Groden rods already and they can handle way way way more then a street car would EVER throw at them, EVER. Those rods can handle well over 1,000 hp on the right tune and setup. It is very important though like countless others have mentioned that you let you car come up to temp. before you pound on it. I second the Eagle rod choice (I beam, NOT the H beam ones), or look into a set of Carillo rods (there steel, an A beam design, and I have personally seen them handle a 590awhp / 515 awtrq dyno pull. It wasn't my car so I can't say anything else about them other then I was there and I helped the guy build the motor so I know what the rods are for sure. There are pricey (close to $700) but you get what you pay for and you have to pay to play...

-Jace

 

[fourreGsixty3]

The only thing you have to bear in mind is that with the expansion rate of aluminum, the rod bolts take a beating so eventually, the bolts will have to be replaced sooner than in a steel rod. The rods don’t stretch…the bolts do...past their yield...but over time. That’s the nature of the beast. This is true of all alum rods. But at that level of performance, chances are, you’ll have your motor broken apart regardless for a "re-freshening" at some point in time. Possibly every season for the folks really pushing the envelop. You can’t be putting out mountains of HP and never pop your hood.

That quote is straight off FFWD Connection.

It also goes on to state that Darren (owner), and others have used the Groden's in their street driven DSM's without problem's.

I whould listen to Tim. Actually I have, and he has given me invaluable information, and help for my project.

As far as the A1000 goes I can not give person experience since I haven't and will not use this pump. I originally wanted to go with it, but after lots of research, and talking with DSMers such as Tim, and Dan Kasun, Andy Moraitis, ect... I see the flaw's of this pump with our cars. The pump works well in the V8 world where they can have twin turbo's, lower fuel pressures, and make gobb's of power. BUT we have high pressures when making large amount's of power, and the Bosch 044 out flows the A1000 in the range of fuel pressure that you will be at in order to make 800whp. Also the A1000 can heat up the fuel as it passes through (I researched this), and the last thing you want is warm fuel. Cold is power! Also check out the Go-Go Juice section on FFWD, they have spray pattern pic's of FIC 950s vs the new 1150s, and why 1000 are usless. And to anyone who doubt's the dual wally 255 set-up I will say no more then go to Tim's (twicks69) profile, and see what he run's! I asked him if he plans on going to larger fuel pump's...his simple responce was No, he just needed larger injector's.

Also I do suggest that you have your modification's for this car compliment each other. I have spent since early 06 slowly making my list of parts for my project, aquiring parts, and getting my 1Gs weight down without being obvious about it (no stripped out interior), and prepping it for body work, and paint. "Going fast with class."-Mike Rizz I honestly would be well into my project except that my funds have been sickeningly low due to college, but I'm out, and those are being paid off in full by spring time, and the rest will be under way.

Good luck with your project, and I hope you have left room in your budget for misc. stuff that is never accounted for, and breaking parts when its complete.

 

[95AWD_TSI_TALON]

yes the A1000 is a big mistake poor quality is the name of the game with that pump.

Obviously you have no clue what you are talking about and have had NO personal experience with an A1000. So please stop spreading more rumors.

Please keep in mind the A1000 is made by....Aeromotive, you know the company 90% of DSM'ers depend on for fpr and so on. Please link me to ANY A1000 failure that was PROPERLY installed. On aeromotive website it states if you want to DD would need the voltage controller. I just as EVERYONE else, especialy in the DSM and even mustang community that have run A1000's on the street, have never followed that and will lead to premature failure, But of 7 of them that I personal know of on cars RIGHT NOW not one has failed without the controller. Will they die...yes. Just as OEM ones will too. Will they live longer with the controller, yes. Do they die from poor quality??? NOT AT ALL
Matt

 

[all_motor_mike]

we are building a stroker motor that we hope to be upwards of 700 whp and we are using the manley's. when i first saw them i was like damn! thats a beefy freaking rod. so im expecting alot from them.


mike