Borg Warner S200 (Bullseye S256) Review

[T9S1i]

(copied from the link forums)

OK, so i went out to do some tuning on my new setup tonight.

BW s258 turbo, supporting mods in sig, 1050cc injectors, 91 octane.

Tune is at 19psi, we had to get my damn fuel trims dialed in again for some reason they changed from the other day so we only had time to tune to this psi. Im going to try to go out and up the boost in the next few days.


I did a launch through the top of 3rd and the car was moving, i got on the freeway and did a little 4th gear pull and then got off the freeway and went home and my manifold and turbine housing were glowing red! Ive never seen that before, is it bad? No knock or anything so...
When i launched i spun all through first gear, then when i did the 4th gear pull on the freeway it sounded like something either broke off or fell out of my engine bay and bounced under the car... so i gotta get under it and take a look to see if everything looks ok. The car drove and handled fine, just heard something kind of clunk off...


Here is the log any input/help/suggestions are welcome. The car kept having a wierd lean situation right at 4k that it took us a while to get rid of.


BIG thanks to Dave! (pneumo) for tuning for me while i drove. Its kind of hard to do it all with this beast!


-Danny
91 TSi AWD 2.0L Skat/Weisco 8.3's, Fidanza, DKS 1 Cams -264/272, Revised Lifters, ACT 2600, Extreme PSI street FMIC, HKS SSQ, 2G Maf, FIC 1050's, IE FPR kit with Aeromotive FPR, Waldbro 255hp, Borg Warner S258 T3 .70 housing, ERL Manifold, Tial 38mm WG, Dejon 4" Intake Pipe

 

[1992awdlaser]

You need to make a cold air intake or something. Those intake temperatures are crazy.

Did you have to pull so much timing to get rid of knock? If the car was knocking I bet part of it wa due to the intake temps.

Glowing red is normal after beating on it.

 

[thiazole]

(copied from the link forums)

OK, so i went out to do some tuning on my new setup tonight.

BW s258 turbo, supporting mods in sig, 1050cc injectors, 91 octane.

Tune is at 19psi, we had to get my damn fuel trims dialed in again for some reason they changed from the other day so we only had time to tune to this psi. Im going to try to go out and up the boost in the next few days.


I did a launch through the top of 3rd and the car was moving, i got on the freeway and did a little 4th gear pull and then got off the freeway and went home and my manifold and turbine housing were glowing red! Ive never seen that before, is it bad? No knock or anything so...
When i launched i spun all through first gear, then when i did the 4th gear pull on the freeway it sounded like something either broke off or fell out of my engine bay and bounced under the car... so i gotta get under it and take a look to see if everything looks ok. The car drove and handled fine, just heard something kind of clunk off...


Here is the log any input/help/suggestions are welcome. The car kept having a wierd lean situation right at 4k that it took us a while to get rid of.


BIG thanks to Dave! (pneumo) for tuning for me while i drove. Its kind of hard to do it all with this beast!


-Danny
91 TSi AWD 2.0L Skat/Weisco 8.3's, Fidanza, DKS 1 Cams -264/272, Revised Lifters, ACT 2600, Extreme PSI street FMIC, HKS SSQ, 2G Maf, FIC 1050's, IE FPR kit with Aeromotive FPR, Waldbro 255hp, Borg Warner S258 T3 .70 housing, ERL Manifold, Tial 38mm WG, Dejon 4" Intake Pipe

I've had this happen before - it was usually a big wrench or ratchet that I left in the engine compartment...

 

[T9S1i]

You need to make a cold air intake or something. Those intake temperatures are crazy.

Did you have to pull so much timing to get rid of knock? If the car was knocking I bet part of it wa due to the intake temps.

Glowing red is normal after beating on it.

Yeah, my CAI needs a little tweaking after i installed my new 4" intake pipe. And yes i did have to pull all that timing. I started with the 2g timing map plugged into my link settings since im on higher compression and 91 octane but i did have to pull additional timing.

I've had this happen before - it was usually a big wrench or ratchet that I left in the engine compartment...

Yeah thats what im starting to think, i do need to get under the car to make sure, but drivability is still fine, it was the 2nd time last night that it happened...

Maybe that black hole behind the battery that stole all my sockets and 10 and 12 mm combo wrenches finally spit them out... thats about the area it sounded from.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I didnt read thru this whole thread, but skimped over a few other threads like it before and these BW turbos look pretty good, my friend Drew ran one with great results; but I never got to ride in it.
The post im seeing in this thread are encouraging though.

I am going to be stepping up from the 16g sometime around spring of next year and I was always leaning for a 3071 or a 3076r, but since I wasnt close to actually purchasing I didnt do too much research, but I honestly dont think I want a BB turbo, even though I do want quick spool. This extended tip stuff looks pretty ideal though.

Iam not very power hungry as some of you guys. A sub 500HP weekend warrior, would be max for me, I dont want to NEED a built motor or spare drivetrain parts laying around.
So more realistically I just want a clean 380-430awhp on pump gas with lots of torque and as quickest spool as possible. I want a punchy responsive setup that can still move up top enough for 120mph 93octane traps, and anything it can do after that would be just a bonus ...but really Im not going for anything to particular. My setup can easily run high 11s on race gas w/ the e316g; and some of the 50trim and bigger dsms around here are still slower than me which isnt motivational in me dropping heavy cash to upgrade...

Ive ridden in a few 50trim/60trim setups and etc. and even with 20+ psi I was never truely impressed.
Im so used to the hard hit of my 16g on 23-25ish psi that when I felt these other bigger turbos, the hit clearly wasnt there, i mean it did pull up top more than my 16g did, but the overall pull was just very linear and smooth and there wasnt much violence in the pull at all... I am all about the fun factor, I want to be placed back in my seat until I let off, and feel my steering wheel fighting me. I mean I havent experienced a bigger turbo setup on race gas pushed to its limits.

Anyways, from what i can tell, the s256 seems that would fit the bill for me, but Idk if thats the best option for my goals, housing wise, Im trying to stay straight bolt on to my current setup ( fpmani, punishment o2housing)
Price is always a factor too, and these turbos arent cheap imo.
Speaking of price, maybe it will drop by the time I plan to purchase a turbo (doubtful)... Whats the best/cheapest place as of now that I should look towards buying. I know theres a few venders advertising; just starting my researching though. Thanks-

 

[T9S1i]

I think from what you are describing you should go with the bolt on s256. I went with the t3 .70 s258 and its more of a top end turbo. Not that thats a bad thing, it makes gobs of power and you will just want to keep revving your motor higher and higher, but for what you describe i would go with the 256, it should spool fast, hit hard, and have the top end to support your trap times. I know what you mean abou the torque hit that the 16g has, it was an "instaspool" turbo that would hit hard whenever you floored the gas, but if your setup was built well enough, it would run out of steam pretty fast. I missed the instaspool torque factor for maybe a week and now i love the top end pull of the s258, and i havent even felt anything higher than 20psi, its just going to get better and better.

Talk to steve93talon, he's had good experience with the BW turbos and will give you an honest opinion on em.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I think from what you are describing you should go with the bolt on s256. I went with the t3 .70 s258 and its more of a top end turbo. Not that thats a bad thing, it makes gobs of power and you will just want to keep revving your motor higher and higher, but for what you describe i would go with the 256, it should spool fast, hit hard, and have the top end to support your trap times. I know what you mean abou the torque hit that the 16g has, it was an "instaspool" turbo that would hit hard whenever you floored the gas, but if your setup was built well enough, it would run out of steam pretty fast. I missed the instaspool torque factor for maybe a week and now i love the top end pull of the s258, and i havent even felt anything higher than 20psi, its just going to get better and better.

Talk to steve93talon, he's had good experience with the BW turbos and will give you an honest opinion on em.

K thanks. You that was easy enough to get a decent response
I wish there was more information on these turbos efficiency on pump gas and
what kind of power the average person can expect. ( I plan to have a more than average setup) but it would appear my goals of 380-430 awhp pump gas are realistic with that turbo while still providing quick boost.
My car is pretty light, and has already done some killer times w/ 16g, so im sure either turbo would possiblymake my car a consistent low 11 pump gas car which is awesome.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Dude - these turbos are sick.

They are efficient in any range. far beyond anything I've seen. If you get one you'll never look back. A 256 will respond great.. I run a 258 on my 2.4l I hit 24 psi before 4000rpms. spool and efficiency is insane.

If you're worried about price - PM me. I'll let you know what's going on.

 

[haioku-rocket]

Not to hi-jack, but I as well sold out the Borg Warner turbos. Unfortunately I popped a HG, and my motor was crankwalking when I was running my To4E 50 trim...so I am in the middle of a new build, scat rods, Mahle Pistons, eagle crank (only because my crank was bad) etc. Anyways here is just a little pic, will let everyone know how it all goes down when I get her back together and tuned. thanks.

S258 with bolt on housing.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[chavez408]

I want to see these things on the track

 

[Steve93Talon]

I want to see these things on the track

10's FINALLY

 

[chavez408]

SUCK IT! his got the 'big' turo, bw 366. Very impressive!

 

[Steve93Talon]

SUCK IT! his got the 'big' turo, bw 366. Very impressive!

I can post my best video from the 258, but it's only a 12.5 with a bogged launch and the trans was locking me out of 2nd. I didn't get the 11.82 best on tape unfortunately.

 

[T9S1i]

chavez i'll go to the track sometime soon. It just seems like all the local dsmrs that like to hit the track are down at the moment.
Edwin is going to be re-doing his setup with a BW turbo
Dave is rebuilding and going after a better time on his 14b (better than 11.98)
Kahfae works on wednesdays, but im sure he could get time off if he really wanted to go.
And i want to get more tuning done before i go to the track. Im pretty sure right now my car is faster than the 12.8 in my sig, but ive got to get things dialed in a little better and Ive been working short temp jobs at different buildings so its hard for me to ask for time off.

It will happen soon, i'll probably go to the track when my car is tuned at higher boost, and you can bet that everyone in this thread will be the first people to hear about how i do, when i go run the car. I just gotta get my crap in line and really show this turbo's potential.

 

[We're on Boost]

10's FINALLY

Jeez that thing is a monster.
Were the first 2 gears all wheel spin? Then it hooked up in 3rd gear?

Gary

 

[dsmmatt28]

I had a fp red and it took a dump. Im ordering this turbo in a week. How much of the water pipe will have to be dented to clear if at all. I have a 2g manifold.

 

[chavez408]

Cool danny, hey if you do go let me know. I might be able to go and watch . Since my car is un tune as well, and I am boost creeping like mofo on this 14b (stock o2 housing). I am off on wends

 

[T9S1i]

Hey i have an external wastegate setup on the o2 housing i'll let go to you for cheap if you want to control that creep.

PM me if you are interested. It did great with my 16g setup.


About the drag racing... its all up to my work schedule. I probably wont be able to go for like a month the way things are looking. If i have a week where im out of work i'll definitely hit you up and we can roll out to infineon for a wed night race.

Ive never been to Sac CMI so i'd want to wait for someone who's been there before to roll with me so that i dont look like a jackass if i dont know where to go or what to do.

 

[chavez408]

Sure, ill pm in a minute. I know iv never been to a track so I want to go with someone to show me the ropes.

 

[dsmmatt28]

Just ordered my s256!!!!

 

[northendtrooper]

So I have two questions for the BEP owners...
Any real boost creeps? Do I have to go to external for anything over 20psi?
Any blown turbos meaning it being Journal bearing...
Other than that I'm convinced!

 

[thiazole]

From my understanding, the internal wastegate S200s have wastegate blow open problems, not boost creep.

 

[northendtrooper]

From my understanding, the internal wastegate S200s have wastegate blow open problems, not boost creep.

???? Hows that happen?

 

[Avionixx]

I've got some minor creep with my internal, can't say much about the wastegate blowing open however; my spoolup is pretty darn reasonable. I have it set for 20-21 PSI, but it spikes to 26 then down to 20 and creeps to about 24 PSI by 6000 RPM.

If you're going to run past 20 PSI, you're fine with the internal. Conventional logic says that it should present issues at low boost, but I had it set as low as 15 PSI and it held great, no spike or creep; slow as hell, but predictable.

 

[We're on Boost]

I've got some minor creep with my internal, can't say much about the wastegate blowing open however; my spoolup is pretty darn reasonable. I have it set for 20-21 PSI, but it spikes to 26 then down to 20 and creeps to about 24 PSI by 6000 RPM.

This sounds like what Slowboy found over and over again in their test of internally gated turbos a few years ago:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-turbo-system-intercooler/208481-internally-gated-turbos-tested-dyno.html

It is possible I guess to get good behavior out of an internal wastegate. FP did it and showed some interesting logs in the FP White thread in Evom. They had a transducer on the wastegate actuator arm and that was shown in the logs, as well as boost and a bunch of other stuff that most people only dream about logging.

Gary