Best/Most Versatile 1G Coilover setup?

[HokieDSM]

Most of these kits are over sprung and tuned all ass backwards. These numbers are off the top of my head from some things I calculated a couple months ago, if it's not dead on accurate don't kill me

Ok Nick - so from what you said, the springs that are on the SS-P are far oversprung. The fronts on that Kit are 559lbs/front, 396lbs/back. Sounds like they'd be way too stiff - those hampering ride quality (one aspect that we're looking for) - how does this compare to the spring rates of the FLT-A2 sets, both stock & RRE-spec'd?

I do know that the DSS Sleeve Coilover sets, while not a "true coilover", are built to order to each customer's spring rate requirements - might this, matched with Konis (and perhaps AGXs in back for easy adjustibility) - be the best economical setup?

-C

 

[cait sith]

Care to share the wealth? :laugh:

Haha. I wish! I've been waiting two years to buy a FLT-A2 setup. I'll keep everyone informed along with my conversation with John and everything.

1900 is out of the box for JIC's at RRE. 2k is for a system setup by John. I'm going with the setup by John as he has a lot more experience with DSM suspension than I do.

 

[m0f]

I'm in the same market myself at the moment, Looking for the best compromise of confort and handling on bumpy roads. I'm looking to purchase within the next month or so.

I did find this one review on the tein SS-P for 1G which looks promising

1G Tein Review

Also considering pairing up a set of koni's to a sleeve coilover, but total cost of that setup is very close to that of a true coilover. And the fact that you must remove the rears to adjust make them not much of an option imo.

JIC uses an 8kg / 7kg for awd, and 8kg / 6kg for the fwd. whereas tein uses a 9gk / 7kg by default. So the spring rates are very similar between the two

 

[PaulPDX]

Alright. I'll spill. The coilovers I mentioned will be put together by HotBit's North American distributor with HotBits dampers (bilstein).

The GVR4 guys love HotBits coilovers for their cars it seems. There's some speculation that the GVR4 kit might fit a 1G awd, but the owner of the NA distributor just picked up a 92 Talon to rally with and is currently working on prototypes and testing spring rates. If I recall correctly, the track spring rates for the GVR4 are very close to the rates NDgsx mentioned.

The dampers will not be adjustable. The guy wrote me a lengthy email explaining why adjustable dampers don't really do what they claim to do because they are only bleeder valves and not a true adjustable vavle damper. Anyway, I won't go too far into the details... but I tend to agree. Based on my own experiences in the past, bilstein dampers are almost bullet proof and would rank them above Koni Sports (which IMHO are damn good). Besides, how often do you think you will be adjusting the dampers?? If you think about it, it's really more of a novelty.

The owner of the HB NA dist. has 10+ years of rally and racing experience so I have faith in the upcoming coilovers. It's probably worth the wait. ET of release for the first kit is next month.

Edit...

Here's what he(Peter Reily @ motorsport-dist.com) wrote about adjustable dampers:

Adjustable dampening, an evil idea in my mind, mostly because it is a marketing ploy for damper manufacturers that sell them for less than $3000usd per set.#Dampers that use a needle down the middle of the piston rod are only bleed adjustment.# Bleed is the hole that you use to bypass the main valve, on passenger cars its usually a drilled hole for comfort at low speed.# Bypassing the valve softens the dampening but if the damper is there to control the spring and you bypass the control mechanism, ie. the valve, then what have you accomplished?

#

True adjustable dampening must be done with a secondary valve, a true hydraulic valve, such as Ohlins, Dynamic, Proflex etc.## The main valve is set#and as the oil is forced to a secondary reservoir it is controlled again by the secondary#hydraulic valve.## The main valve is a stack of shims on each side of the piston, so how would#you adjust that without taking the damper apart.# The secondary hydraulic valve allows minor#changes to the main damping force by controlling the oil#flow.# You can then#have seperate controls for bounce and rebound.# On a mono tube#design the floating piston would move to the external reservoir and this would allow shorter#dampers with longer stroke.#

Hotbits is working on a new line that is 2#and 3 way adjustable.# Highspeed and lowspeed bounce and rebound control on an externally adjustable valve between the main damper and external cannister.

I saw the prototype for the WRX and EVOIIV a year ago, they are hoping to start launching some this year.... The only other way to do adjustable dampening is with the new electro magnetic oils (caddy xlr & new vette)....but I can only guess the price.... I have never taken apart a Tien or JIC, have actually never seen one, which probably means that they are not good enough to rally.## HotBits rally setups are only a revalved version of the street set, I ran 10 National events without inspecting the set in my Focus, when I did, they needed nothing.# So they are#build tough in the TUV certified facility. Watch our website for updates on the Talon set.# Something should be up on the site in August.

 

[NDgsx]

Interesting post Nick. I'm researching suspension for a street/weekend lapping day GVR4. When you did that motion ratio math, did you do it for Andres car also? Care to share? I always heard that 350/275 f/r was a good combo and thats what I ordered. GC sent me 400/315 but that's a story for another thread. It seems like you came up with lighter fronts and heavier rears. Works for me, less push. I know you guys have Autocrossed GVR4s so I'm interested in hearing your spring rate suggestions.

No I haven't yet, I've been so busy at the shop I haven't had any time to think about it. The front spring rate will all depend on what speed you want the suspension tuned at, for lower speeds the front suspension will be softer. If someone with time can measure their unsprung weight I could do the math easily, I know the corner weights.
When Andre used to autoX the galant he had insanely high spring rates, I think 500f and 450r. On a glassy smooth surface it works, in the real world it doesn't.

 

[NDgsx]

Ok Nick - so from what you said, the springs that are on the SS-P are far oversprung. The fronts on that Kit are 559lbs/front, 396lbs/back. Sounds like they'd be way too stiff - those hampering ride quality (one aspect that we're looking for) - how does this compare to the spring rates of the FLT-A2 sets, both stock & RRE-spec'd?

I do know that the DSS Sleeve Coilover sets, while not a "true coilover", are built to order to each customer's spring rate requirements - might this, matched with Konis (and perhaps AGXs in back for easy adjustibility) - be the best economical setup?

-C

Wow that's going to perform terribly on a rough road. A couple years ago I ran GC and konis with a 450lb f and 375lb r rate, even that was too stiff.
If I recall correctly Scott Gray ran 375f and 425r springs, not sure if that's what Mueller normally does or not though.

I would definetly recomend against AGXs in the back, too much high speed compression dampening, might as well weld it solid. I'm not sure if konis will have enough rebound dampening for 300lb springs. I know they did not for the 450/375 I used to have.


So these kits will be ready in the next month or too Paul? Keep us updated, it sounds good so far.

 

[bigfoot]

Thanks Nick, I guess it's time to weigh some brake rotors and wheel/tires.

Paul, I didn't know Hot Bits used Bilsteins. Here is a moderators quote cut and pasted from another forum.

"Bilstein, on the other hand, is dirt stupid simple to rebuild/revalve yourself, and the parts are cheap and readily availible. Bilstien does a ton of NASCAR business, so economies of scale are in your favour. The downside is that I don't think that there's an off-the-shelf application for DSMs, so you either buy a BMW strut and weld on your own ears, or you pay someone else to do it for you. More expensive to get in, but cheaper to maintain/modify".

I like.

 

[coolnick]

I have the JICs on my 90 AWD (FLT-A2). I got them in November or October. At that time JIC shipped them with a 9k front and 6k rear spring. I thought that the front rate was a little high, so I ordered 8k front 6k rear. There are some features on these coilovers that are pretty innovative. You use the spring perch to set the spring in just enough tension to keep the springs from unseating at full droop. Then you turn the entire shock body into the lower part where it attaches to the upright. You end up with the same amount of travel at any height (assuming you don't mangle your fenders). The strangest thing about this setup is the limited range of travel, no more than 3 inches. I keep about a 1/2 inch of fender gap currently, but when you jack the car up, there is only about 1 1/2 inches of gap at full droop. The setup is nearly unbearably stiff on concrete highways and over pavement transitions, but it needs to be that stiff to not bottom out with the limited travel. I have never bottomed the shocks, the bump stops look like they have never been touched (in the rear, you can't see the front bumpstops). If you are looking for a plush ride, you may want to look elsewhere, or at least have a lengthy conversation with Jon at JIC and tell him EXACTLY what you are looking for. The reason I stress exactly is because you have to know what is going to make you happy. If you assume that the ultimate race setup will be bearable on the street, you are wrong. I dove right into my suspension project and figured that all the questions and forum posts in the world were not going to help me figure out what was best for me. Now that I have them on the car I can easily describe what I like and dislike about the setup. The guys at JIC will talk with you and help you determine how to get the most out of your suspension setup. Currently the car is unbelieveable in big high speed corners, like 120-130 mph through some interstate corners feeling firmly attached to the ground. I am lacking the crisp turn-in for slow speed corners that I really wanted (autocross). Part of my turn in problems may be due to the use of Whiteline adjustable caster bushings in the front, so I am taking those out to regain my static negative camber. Jon wants me to take the coilovers out of the car and send pictures of the stickers on the dampers so we can determine if I need different dampers (the stickers are all in Japanese). The cool thing about their setup is that you can mix and match dampers AND spring rates. I will most likely step down in spring rate to 7k front 6k rear or 6k front 5k rear.

The point of all of this is that there is no one solution right out of the box that is going to satisfy every consumer. Part of the problem is that is it very difficult to determine exactly what you want until you have a baseline for comparison. I have a ground control/koni setup on my Jetta and I am far from pleased with that setup. I knew I wanted something that would not allow the springs to flop around under full droop, and I also wanted something that was not going to bottom out after a very harsh bump. I am pleased that those particular complaints are not an issue with the JIC setup, and the small complaints that I do have with this setup are easily fixed. I was offended that RRE would not offer any consultation whatsoever until you gave them your $$. While I can appreciate the years of experience that they have tuning the JICs, I am still not going to go ahead and let them make all of the decisions. I would be interested to know what dampers and spring rates they use, but I think I am going to find my perfect match through my own experimentation. Bottom line is this, if you want a plush ride and you dont want to swap springs in and out, you may want to go with a lowering spring/shock combo. If you love to tinker with things and need an excuse to tear the car apart, get a more advanced setup.

Also, you will want to do some sort of active rear toe elimination and a good rear camber adjustment method. I went with the taboo rear toe eliminator kit and Whiteline adjustable rear camber bushings. I was quite amazed that the Whiteline bushings offered enough adjustment to bring the camber back to 1 degree negative after lowering the car so much (maybe 3-3.5 inches). And grease the hell out of the JIC dampers to keep them from getting nasty in the salt. I am a happy customer because I need the ability to tweak the hell out of the suspension. If I had to do it all over again I would choose the JICs and I am pretty sure I will use them on any future setups. Just be prepared to do a little homework on your own.

 

[PaulPDX]

Thanks Nick, I guess it's time to weigh some brake rotors and wheel/tires.

Paul, I didn't know Hot Bits used Bilsteins. Here is a moderators quote cut and pasted from another forum.

"Bilstein, on the other hand, is dirt stupid simple to rebuild/revalve yourself, and the parts are cheap and readily availible. Bilstien does a ton of NASCAR business, so economies of scale are in your favour. The downside is that I don't think that there's an off-the-shelf application for DSMs, so you either buy a BMW strut and weld on your own ears, or you pay someone else to do it for you. More expensive to get in, but cheaper to maintain/modify".

I like.

The HotBits coilovers will not have off the shelf Bilstein shocks but rather HotBits shocks with Bilstein internals (like most H&R coilovers - very high quality, had a set on the 98 GTI I had).

Nick, yes... according to the NA HB dist. they are trying for next month for release. Not sure if that will be the rally set or the street/track set. Even if the rally set comes first... the street/track version shouldn't be more than a week behind since, as mentioned, it's just a revalve job.

I'm definitly holding out for this. The conflicting stories regarding JIC and Tein I keep reading about over and over are enough to give me second thoughts. Another advantage with dealing with the NA dist. is that you most likely will be able to ask them to create a set with your spring rates or valve preference at your request. Good luck getting the same support from Tein or JIC especially. Again, I don't doubt Mueller's tuning abilities... but the price difference and the secrecy surrounding what "tuning" he does exactly makes me a bit suspicious. I don't mind paying more for a better product, but I'd want to know exactly what I'm getting with my money (i.e. not suckered into paying more because some guru has put his stamp on it).

BTW, camber plates will most likely be available with the HotBits kit as an option, if not included. HotBits already has coilovers with external aux. resevoirs... so perhaps they can create a set like that as well for the hard core track crowd.

Got an idea... what if we start organizing a GB of some sort? maybe that'll give them even more incentive to get the kit out and allow them to get a jump on word of mouth advertising?

 

[Turbo Shogun]

Good read, good read. I'm glad this thread's gotten very in-depth. As for the HotBits, Paul, did you get a price estimate as to how much they'll cost? Without pillowball upper mounts, they should be a little less, but I'll definitely want those included if I purchase them. It seems the Street Sport Kit for the GVR4's about $992 (in Australia). If they end up costing about the same for the DSM-Specific application, then I'll wait a year if I have to!

Keep us posted about that GB, I'll join in if the product delivered is as promised.

 

[PaulPDX]

No idea on cost. But I did tell the guy how much RRE is charging and how most ppl think it's highway robbery... I also told me him much the teins are, and that they really are just a sport setup.

I'm assuming they'll be about the same price as the GVR4 kits mentioned in the GVR4 GB thread. If what everyone is speculating about the similarities between the dsm and the GVR4, then all they really have to do is take those kits and make slight changes in shock lengths, spring rates, and perhaps even valves. IIRC, for the GVR4 street/track with plates, I think I saw a price of $1100. Not sure. Either way... I'm going to wait for it. I'm not giong to pay $2000 for a set of coilovers sold for as low as $1400 elsewhere for mystery tuning.

What I meant about the GB is that if we get a list started now,

1) they can actually see how many people are interested right away
2) it'd allow us to have a say in what we'd like to see in the kit... spring rates, features etc.
3) it'd allow us to lock in a price before they realize that they can make more money by charging more (a la RRE)

Tein SS's are not monotube. So if you're thinking about using them for track use... I'd wait.

 

[Turbo Shogun]

Good info, now let's start getting some names. As for the price mentioned, $1100 is one hell of a deal for a track-oriented setup. The Tein HA's cost around $1,400, and I don't think they were monotube. If they didn't stop making them, I would have ordered them by now. Good thing they discontinued the HA line.

 

[PaulPDX]

Good info, now let's start getting some names. As for the price mentioned, $1100 is one hell of a deal for a track-oriented setup. The Tein HA's cost around $1,400, and I don't think they were monotube. If they didn't stop making them, I would have ordered them by now. Good thing they discontinued the HA line.

There never was a HA line for the 1Gs. ArcticTSi's are a one-off deal.

 

[bigfoot]

I'm not sure if I'm in. My car is a lowered GVR4, DSM spec coilovers might be the right length but I'd need to be sure. I'd want to know the spring rates too, the ones on the GVR4 GB didn't look right to me. Since the GVR4 has the same suspension and motion ratios as Nicks car, I'm thinking 325/325 might be about right.

 

[NDgsx]

What I meant about the GB is that if we get a list started now,

1) they can actually see how many people are interested right away
2) it'd allow us to have a say in what we'd like to see in the kit... spring rates, features etc.
3) it'd allow us to lock in a price before they realize that they can make more money by charging more (a la RRE)
.

I'm interested, but the problem is I don't know what my car will weigh or what the weight distribution will end up being. I probably won't have that until spring. I'm too busy to work on the car right now.
I'd want camber/caster plates up front, preferably with a better needle bearing setup then what the GC ones use. Those always get crap in them and wear out, they need a seal.
I'd also want solid upper mounts in the back with a rod end at the bottom of the shock.

I'm working on actually doing real math for the spring rates.
Stock 2 piston calipers/rotors w/o pads=23lbs
Suspension unsprung weight=50lbs
17" SSRs with215/45r17 (don't ask on the tire width, they're a customers) 33lbs
Most wheel and tire setups will be around 40lbs

Even with the light wheels that's 106lbs of unsprung weight per front corner.

 

[bigfoot]

Even with the light wheels that's 106lbs of unsprung weight per front corner.

Thats what I came up with. Well I got 95 on the right front but I forgot to loosen one of the bushings. I'll weigh them again when I get the trans back in. This is assuming I can get accurate numbers by removing shocks, sway bar, and loosening bushings.

 

[Turbo Shogun]

What about corrosion resistance? Customer support and perhaps a warranty (I know the chances are slim, but why not try, anyway)? These were the biggest stumbling points for JIC and Tein, IMO.

Also, what kind of springs will they be using? Just curious.

 

[PaulPDX]

What about corrosion resistance? Customer support and perhaps a warranty (I know the chances are slim, but why not try, anyway)? These were the biggest stumbling points for JIC and Tein, IMO.

Also, what kind of springs will they be using? Just curious.

Email or call them. www.motorsport-dist.com

I am in no way the official point man on this. Feel free to contact them on your own. If anything, it'll be good for them to know that there is actual demand as opposed to me telling them that there is without any proof.

 

[Turbo Shogun]

That sounds like an alignment problem to me. Get it checked ASAP. I let off an alignment job and it cost me a tire. :thumbdown: Too much caster on one side causes the car to pull left or right. Excessive tire wear might be linked to a mis-toed alignment

Not sure about your H&R question.

I'll try giving Motorsport Dist. a call tomorrow during my lunch break.

 

[m0f]

Yes, H&R's are abvailable in OE Sport, Sport and Race. Race lowers way too much, sport lowers somewhere around 1.5" and OE Sport is very close to stock height.

I'm definately interested to see what Hotbits can do in terms of a 1G setup. Not in a hurry, so will definately wait to see what they come up with.

 

[ThaGremlin]

so which suspension will fit on a 1G FWD i want the tein SS-P but some people say that the awd system is the same as fwd (suspension wise) that way the ss-p should fit . .i even emailed TEIN and they said it is the same thing. .



| | | Inbox


Okbar,
Hello and thank you for your support of TEIN High Performance
Suspension. The Type SS-P will fit both AWD and 2WD vehicles. If you have
any further questions feel free to contact us.

Best regards,
Sales

Staff @ TEIN USA INC.
9798 Firestone Blvd.
Downey, CA 90241
Phone: (562)861-9161
Fax: (562)861-9171
www.tein.com


this is there response. .when emailed. . just curious . .well if you guys could give me anyother advice.

 

[PaulPDX]

shox.com

 

[PaulPDX]

this is there response. .when emailed. . just curious . .well if you guys could give me anyother advice.

As discussed, the Tein SS is sport/street oriented. If you want to spend more time on the track... wait and see what HotBits comes up with. If it's a street only car, the SS-P is probably fine albeit a bit of an overkill. Sure it gives you the ability to adjust ride height and corner weight the car for best balance, but chances are you won't be messing with any of that once the system is installed. For street only, good springs and shocks are probably good enough.

 

[Knower]

So let me preclude this with saying that I am by no means a suspension expert. However...

God knows. Lots of hearsay here on the boards. No clear distinction between fact or fiction.

Some say Teins rust. Some say that's been fixed. Most JIC owners say are great. One guy says they're crap and the damping is all over the place after some testing on the shock dyno. Meanwhile RRE openly admits that their price isn't the best, but they set up yours to best match your driving based on the information you provide... and it's the difference between hating them or loving them... implying that out of the box the JICs need profound tweaking for best results.

So anyone's guess is as good as mine. Don't you just love the internet? I feel so much more informed.

Sounds like lots of hearsay, but a pretty clear distinction by the RRE JIC customers that they are very happy with their setups. That RRE openly admits that their pricing is not the best (in internet DSMer terms this always equals LOWEST) is obvious. They're custom-configured JICs are not your off-the-shelf ricer shop equivalent with the lowest price in the west.

As much as I love RRE, I find it rather insulting that they're charging 1900 dollars for a set of JIC's out of the box (untuned), while other places are selling the same damn set for 1500 dollars.

From what I've picked up, the valving is not the same as the off the shelf JICs.

RRE is in LA so that probably explains the high pricing.

Man this really sucks. I don't want to experiment with the EVO coilovers either. "Should" or "might" fit is just too risky.

Huh? How would RRE being in LA explain any of the pricing? You can get JICs from any honda shop in the LA area for cheaper even though you're comparing apples to oranges.

I don't know enough about the respective kits to be able to answer your question comparing the two so I can't respond to that - but as far as RRE's concerned - it really depends on how you classify it. RRE seems to spell it out pretty well on their site - that for the base price you just get the setup pretty much out of the box with spring rates specific for your application- and at the other end of the spectrum they are certainly doing tuning seeing as they have your car for practically a day's worth of labor & testing - so I'd see it hard to believe that they're not really doing much with all that time.

The curiosity is what exactly the midground is for that "With setup" option for $2000 is - is anyone on the boards here running the JICs who could comment on any of this?

Incidentally, if what horsepowerfreaks is saying is true, then RRE is selling the kit above MSRP. Maybe it's just covering for the changed springrates. However, I'd be happy to give John Mueller the benefit of the doubt for his setup work - I've heard too many good things to be skeptical there. I just wonder if they're raising the baseprice to cover for the extra labor of Mueller's work.

This comment shows the poster is fairly literate Again, different valving, spring rates, etc... for RRE customers, making their price over MSRP easily justifiable.

Hokie

The additional cost from RRE is probably to cover John's expertise. Considering his background, I have no dobuts about whether he knows what he's doing. He did after all set the fastest lap times in SCC's Ultimate Street Car Challenge... in a 2G set up for drag no less.

The $2000 price tag is only for tuning based on questions he asks you about your driving etc. There is not test drive or installation involved. The set up you get is basically based on John's informed intuition and experience with previous units sold.

You won't get the full deal unless you pay $2200 for installation and testing.

Yes, you're paying for his expertise in all the modifications done to the RRE JICs before they get to you.

Good point, Sith.

The email I sent to JIC went through apparently... here is their response:

Interesting?

Not really. It's not as if most company's representatives even know what's going on half the time (okay, that's very presumptuous, I admit).

JIC is not a good option.... The 4 I tested did very strange things on the shock dyno and where very inconsistant..... NOTE the shock where softer than stock units for that car and had springs 7x the rate!!! Also the adjusters all did some thing different....... I cant say that I have a great option for you guys cuz I dont but all im trying to say is JIC is NO WHERE NEAR what people say they are... Those people are not trained in the art of build and testing shocks...... And if any one says he was fast that really does not mean much either..... I was faster than LOTS of cars with my stock suspension on my old 944S2 at local
laping days and track test days.....

Cheers
Larry

John Mueller stands behind the JICs he sells and owns the USCC road course 2003 and 2004 and his suspensions have been in multiple competitive cars including Robi's OTC 2004 winning Evo. In the 2003 USCC DVD you can clearly see the coolant/oil puking from ROYZGSX (o-ringing issues) on top of the thing already running half boost (15psi on super laggy turbo) to minimize the loss of coolant and oil. In addition, the 2003 competition saw him beat the ridiculous horsepower viper in Scot Gray's 1g awd Eclipse which had a turbo that siezed halfway through the timed lap, effectively having it run with 90 hp for the rest of the lap.

Many teams in the Open Track Challenge (http://www.opentrackchallenge.com) are currently running JIC's with positive results and decent enough praise. Whether or not you take their word for it is up to you.

Yes, whether or not you take the word of heavily competitive and successful racecar drivers over some guys on the internet is up to you.

JIC's are VERY expensive, and I've heard bad things about them, save the sets purchased and tuned at RRE...

I'm seeing a trend here.

RE: JIC
You might want to talk to Greg Collier. He is featured on the DSM Tuners front page this month. He is using JIC's that John @ RRE set up, for the track. Mind you it's not a street car but, he has 1st hand knowledge of the product. He was quite happy with them the last time we spoke on the subject.

More race cars being competitive with JICs from John@RRE.

Yes... and I have no doubts about J. Muller's tuning prowess... but the near $2000 price tag vs the near $1000 cost? Plus shock dyno plots previously posted in this forum showing that the JIC tested had questionable valving... Need I say more?

CORRECTION: PaulPDX was talking about the $2000 price tag versus the $1000 price of the HotBits setup, he just didn't specifically mention that. Statement retracted.

They are. ArticTsi "knew some people" at Tein so he could have a higher level kit made for his car and they used that for the R&D for the first gen.

FWIW: I'm ordering a set of FLT-A2's off RRE this week after I talk to John a little bit on Friday. We'll see how it goes from there.

You won't be dissapointed.

No idea on cost. But I did tell the guy how much RRE is charging and how most ppl think it's highway robbery...

....

3) it'd allow us to lock in a price before they realize that they can make more money by charging more (a la RRE)

As a general comment on all the posts regarding pricing, what world do you live in where RRE is known for anything but their low prices and no-nonsense, heavily performance oriented parts sales? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but when you see such a discrepancy doesn't it seem like it would be a good idea to ask them directly instead of spreading misinformation?

I have personally witnessed John Mueller and J. West staying at the shop until all hours making sure that their suspension customers get their money's worth and complete satisfaction. To this same direction I've been at numerous road racing events where John has supported DSM and Evo customers alike, sometimes at events where he's competing!

And a quote from John Mueller who wrote me a quick response since that's all he has time for considering his schedule at the moment:

"I have done 24 days of track testing this
year alone, and work 14 hours a day to bring quality product to market.

I also set up the winning WRX in the PGT class at Pike's Peak this
year, with an overpriced set of JICs And yes, the driver had never
even been to Pike's Peak before."

He's not kidding about those 14 hour days!

 

[coolnick]

The guys at JIC will tell you that RRE orders the same damn thing that everyone else orders, I asked them. You can also go to their website www.jic-magic.com and look at the MSRP, it is $1850, so yes RRE is $50 over MSRP. I got my JICs about 7 or 8 months ago and MSRP at that time was $1700. No special valving or tricks, they just set the ride height and spring pre-load. If you get the Mueller install, they do an active rear toe elimination and a rear camber fix. At the time that I ordered my JICs, RRE was selling them for $1700. I emailed them a couple of times and talked with John Mueller, but seeing as how I was installing them myself I saw no point in buying from them.

Do keep in mind that price isn't everything, but there is no reason to sell something over MSRP. RRE may be charging the same price for the 2g setup, as that MSRP is $1900. I like my JICs and the customer support is great, I have no complaints. I was in the same boat as everyone else before I made my purchase, the Tein SS setup seemed like more of a comfort setup, only the JICs seemed able to handle some abuse. The final thing that sold me was the design of the dampers, you lower the car by moving the mounting point, not by moving the spring perch. This keeps the spring seated in the perches at all times and retains the same "travel" at any ride height. You can set them low enough to kill your fenders if you want, or you can set them at stock ride height. Either way, the ride quality does not change.

If I had to do it again, I would make the same purchase.