Best/Most Versatile 1G Coilover setup?

[3literpwr]

No never sent them as I didnt really care abou them... I dynoed them for a customer who was trying to decide between a GAB and the JIC setups....... The GAB was far superior......

I recently talked about this subject with a guy off the VR4 forum.. He had been trying to use the dbl adj unit from koni and they had recently tested JIC units @ true choice and they had found the same results I did.....

Many people do not realize how shity a setup can be a still FEEL good... Thats why I NEVER listen to what people say feels good... Not that those people are dumb but just that many are coming from stock shocks and low spring rates so almost any thing that will keep the car from rolling and diving in the corners they think its great....

Here is my current car.... It has a bastard child remote canister setup that uses many different parts that I made and some internal parts from ZF SACHS...... I am currently designing a 50mm inverted monotube setup for rally....

Best of luck.....

Look into hotbits.org..... talk to peter up in canada @ motor state disributing.....

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[Turbo Shogun]

It's good to see people in the same boat as I.

I'm one paycheck away from purchasing Tein SS-P's ... Although, Larry (3Liter) has brought up the subject of HotBits. I saw some contact information on the DSM Auto-X mailing list for that distributor in Canada, and plan on giving them a call sometime this weekend.

All I can say is, the Tein's - for their features, seem to be the best value. JIC's are VERY expensive, and I've heard bad things about them, save the sets purchased and tuned at RRE ... Which are about twice as much as I'd like to spend on a coilover system. So, you see ... We're caught in a dilemma. SS stands for "Super Street", but some of us don't wish to have a compromised set up. We want the best handling we can possibly get. All other coilovers are too expensive. Now I know that Auto-X is 90% driver ... However, the thought of having a "street-tuned" coilover system on my non-daily driven 1G AWD seems to be a waste.

Larry, I remember you saying Evo I-III shocks will fit on a 1G ... If this is so, we have another option - SilkRoad Coilovers. I have a friend of mine that says he can have a set for the CN9A (Evo I-III) shipped to your door for $1300. And I've heard nothing but good things about them.

Good read, guys. Thanks for the info. This makes the selection process a bit (but not by much) less troublesome. :laugh:

- Edit -

I've also given ProStreet Online an e-mail about Tein HA's for a Galant VR-4. It looks like Tein has discontinued them. :thumbdown

 

[bigfoot]

The stock GVR4 rear shock is a bit longer. We use DSM springs/shocks to lower and stiffen the car a little. I'd asume the aftermarket street setups would be short enough for a 1G. Can anyone find the actual spring rates for the Hot Bits? From the GVR4 thread I got 422/422 track, 330/165 street and 420/210. Here is another GVR4 guy from Tacoma using Bilstein coilovers. I like his 350/225 spring rate suggestion. http://www.galantvr4.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003089

 

[PaulPDX]

So a GVR-4 coilover system would fit a 1G awd? or is that just a maybe?

I skimmed the HotBits GB thread and saw the same spring rates. They seem a bit out of wack compared to rates of JIC and Tein coilovers for the 1G awd.

 

[bigfoot]

It's a maybe. Depands on how low ya wanna go and the Hot Bits shock lengths, thier site is down. I think the street rear spring rates are too soft too, but the 1G is lighter in back. They said they could provide custom spring rates and valving, I'd prefer something like 350/250. Larry says the 422lb race shocks are the same just valved differently (shims) so thats a nice range. I've got a Talon TSI too but it's going to stay lightly modded.

 

[PaulPDX]

Hmm... I guess more research on 1G spring rates is needed. Thx for the info.

 

[terefic181]

RE: JIC
You might want to talk to Greg Collier. He is featured on the DSM Tuners front page this month. He is using JIC's that John @ RRE set up, for the track. Mind you it's not a street car but, he has 1st hand knowledge of the product. He was quite happy with them the last time we spoke on the subject.

 

[PaulPDX]

Yes... and I have no doubts about J. Muller's tuning prowess... but the near $2000 price tag vs the near $1000 cost? Plus shock dyno plots previously posted in this forum showing that the JIC tested had questionable valving... Need I say more?

 

[terefic181]

"Yes... and I have no doubts about J. Muller's tuning prowess... but the near $2000 price tag vs the near $1000 cost? Plus shock dyno plots previously posted in this forum showing that the JIC tested had questionable valving... Need I say more?"

Hey.... just thought you were intersted in 1st hand experience, that's all.

 

[terefic181]

By the way.........I run AGX's on my race car...it was a $$$ thing.

 

[GRNDSM]

>NOTE the shock where softer than stock units for that car and had springs 7x the rate!!!

That is really odd... I have used (in this order): GR2s, Konis, Shockteks, AGX and JIC's and find JIC's to be the stiffest in the hardest setting... Could it be the specific shocks that you have tested?

AGXs might be fine dampers, but the blow really easy. It is not uncommon to see them start leaking after just 3 month of hard driving. The good part is that you can usually warranty them, unless you used GC style coilover springs on them. In which case you have to buy new dampers.

Leon
RR

 

[bigfoot]

>AGXs might be fine dampers, but the blow really easy.

Leon
RR

I have AGXs with 400/315 GCs, for my current setup I agree, they blow. And like Leon said, with stiff springs I hear they fail too.

 

[PaulPDX]

AGX's don't even need aftermarket springs to blow. They suck. Period. Those who think AGXs are the shit need to take a ride in a properly set up car before saying they're great.

I may be letting the cat out of the bag, but if any of you are interested in a 1G coilover system, hold on to your money. I just found out late yesterday that there will be a new player in the market and it will be just as good as the hotbits stuff the GVR4 and rally guys love so much. Rally and street/track versions will be offered and the manufacturer has a major facility in North America. They have also recently acquired a 92 dsm for R&D.

 

[HokieDSM]

Well ArcticTSi has Tein HA's on his '91 - he was supposedly one of the testbeds for the SS kit for Tein - you may want to ask him about it.

As for the SS-P's - if you do get them, let us know how they are!

 

[neuralracing]

If I do get the Teins I will also get the EDFC (so I can adjust from the seat).

 

[bigfoot]

I may be letting the cat out of the bag

Can we just peek into the bag? Can you tell us spring rates so I can see if they suit my needs? How about the shock brand? Adjustable?

This has been a long search. Come on Paul, spill.

 

[neuralracing]

Well ArcticTSi has Tein HA's on his '91 - he was supposedly one of the testbeds for the SS kit for Tein - you may want to ask him about it.

As for the SS-P's - if you do get them, let us know how they are!

Now Im confused... I thought only the Tein SS were available for the 1g...

 

[NDgsx]

Most of these kits are over sprung and tuned all ass backwards. These numbers are off the top of my head from some things I calculated a couple months ago, if it's not dead on accurate don't kill me
The front motion ratio of a 1G is .92, the rear is .844. What does this mean? The rear suspension has a higher mechanical advantage and so the rear wheel rate is much lower than the actual spring rate. Say you have a 300lb spring the rear wheels will see a rate in the low 200s (take the spring rate and divide it by the mechanical advantage squared). Don't be afraid of higher rates in the rear, it's not as bad as it might seem.
Given a 3000lb curb weight (my car with driver and a half tank, I'll have lower rates due to my lower weight) and a 60/40 weight distibution and a unsprung weight of 80lbs per wheel (total random number, figure 40lbs for wheels and tires, wheels bearings, hubs, brakes, it adds up quick), with a target rear natural frequency of 2.1 cycles per second (this on the stiff end of the scale) you end up with a target spring rate of 300-325lbs.
Now you take the wheelbase of your car, figure the time it takes to travel that distance. In my case I went for 80mph, about my average lap speed. You subtract that time from the rear natural frequency to find the front natural frequency. When you do this the front suspension will travel up and back down before the rear wheels hit a bump. This helps keep the chasis settled over bumps by reducing porposing (sp?). In this case you end up with a front spring rate of around 300lbs.
Unless you have added a significant amount of weight to your car I wouldn't be looking at rates that are higher than this by a large amount.
Stiff springs do NOT make your car "handle" better. They may increase the roll stiffness of the car, in turn keeping a flatter contact patch with the same static camber setting, which increases cornerning power in a steady state. However when you hit a bump those extremely high spring rates will not allow the suspension to do it's job and the chasis will be upset. If you're on a smooth road course or parking lot this may not be a large factor, however on the street it is.
If you need increased roll stiffness after setting the springs with a high natural frequency increase the stiffness of your roll bar, they are far more effective at reducing body roll. Use the relationship between front and rear roll bar stiffness to determnine the handling characteristics of the car.
A larger sway bar does NOT INCREASE TOTAL WEIGHT TRANSFER, it increase the weight transfer at that paticular end of the car. Total weight transfer is determined by centrifugal force, the height of the center of gravity, and the track width of the car. THAT IS ALL. If you increase the stiffness of both sway bars by the same amount you will reduce body roll and that's it. You WILL NOT INCREASE WEIGHT TRANSFER. You may reach a point where you begin picking up one inside wheel, at this point reduce the roll stiffness at that end of the car and set the static negative camber so that you get even tire temps during cornering.

Blah this is a long post and probably a total waste of time, but I've been wanting to say this for a while. Save yourself tons of money and testing time and read before you buy. Suspension tuning is not a black art, you just have to know a moderate amount of math and engineering to figure it out.

 

[NDgsx]

I was faster than LOTS of cars with my stock suspension on my old 944S2 at local
laping days and track test days.....

Did you have the 030 option though?
I just finished a 89 S2, koni sports, H&R 968 springs, 030 sway bars, KLA rear drop links, KLA front sway bar brace, weltmeister front of control arm bushings, 968 rear of front control arm bushings, and lowered the rear .5". They're fun cars, it handles great for a street car. I just don't look forward to doing a clutch on one again anytime soon
Give me a dsm for that anyday.

 

[bigfoot]

Interesting post Nick. I'm researching suspension for a street/weekend lapping day GVR4. When you did that motion ratio math, did you do it for Andres car also? Care to share? I always heard that 350/275 f/r was a good combo and thats what I ordered. GC sent me 400/315 but that's a story for another thread. It seems like you came up with lighter fronts and heavier rears. Works for me, less push. I know you guys have Autocrossed GVR4s so I'm interested in hearing your spring rate suggestions.

 

[cait sith]

Now Im confused... I thought only the Tein SS were available for the 1g...

They are. ArticTsi "knew some people" at Tein so he could have a higher level kit made for his car and they used that for the R&D for the first gen.

FWIW: I'm ordering a set of FLT-A2's off RRE this week after I talk to John a little bit on Friday. We'll see how it goes from there.

 

[Daedalus]

Yea I was gonna get Tein SS w/EDFC but after learning that the AWD version wont fit FWD and that Tein never planned to produce a FWD version, JIC FLT-A2 are gonna get the order for my car. I just hope they arent too hard to install and setup...

 

[neuralracing]

They are. ArticTsi "knew some people" at Tein so he could have a higher level kit made for his car and they used that for the R&D for the first gen.

FWIW: I'm ordering a set of FLT-A2's off RRE this week after I talk to John a little bit on Friday. We'll see how it goes from there.

How much is that kit going to run you? Im a little upset that the tein is focusing on street driveability... given that my car is mainly for the track.

 

[bigfoot]

This is subjective, but almost everyone I've talked to said thier Teins are a bit stiff (both spring rate and shock valving) for everyday driving. Otherwise I'd get them myself. Should be fine for the track.

 

[HokieDSM]

FWIW: I'm ordering a set of FLT-A2's off RRE this week after I talk to John a little bit on Friday. We'll see how it goes from there.

Care to share the wealth? :laugh: