Best/Most Versatile 1G Coilover setup?

[HokieDSM]

I've currently got Eibach Prokits & AGX's on my 1G TSI AWD; The setup is ok, but the rides somewhat stiff to me, I would prefer something "firm" but not rough.

I'm looking for a good coilover setup to replace it. As far as I know, Tein doesn't make anything for 1Gs; and besides that, none of their setups will allow to bring it up higher than OEM - I'd like something that I can use for AutoX/track and rallycross or TSD rallies. I've considered JICs, but Im really just looking for something not outrageously expensive if possible.

I know a lot of folks run AGXs with Groundcontrol, but everyone's said the ride would get worse - I talked to DSS and they recommended a DSS coilover & Koni adjustibles setup - but that requires stock KYB sleeves which I don't have and I'd still like positive ride height abilities.

So what's the best & most versatile setup?

 

[Cirus_93TSI]

tein makes their super street suspension for a 1g, its a good bit over a thoudand though. and i could be wrong but im fairly sure they make another kit(type HA, or HE i think) for our cars.
one of the guys that works at extreme motorsports just put the super street set up on his 2g fwd and he likes it better then the ground control/koni combo he had on his car before.

 

[HokieDSM]

Thanks for the reply - I noted that Tein was selling some new dampers for 1Gs - although on their website, it says that the maximum height you can get is still a 1" drop - I would like *positive* ride height, aka lift - for rallycross, etc - would that just be a matter of having different/taller springs in the setup?

 

[neuralracing]

Pro's and Con's of Tein vs. JIC?

 

[PaulPDX]

Pro's and Con's of Tein vs. JIC?

God knows. Lots of hearsay here on the boards. No clear distinction between fact or fiction.

Some say Teins rust. Some say that's been fixed. Most JIC owners say are great. One guy says they're crap and the damping is all over the place after some testing on the shock dyno. Meanwhile RRE openly admits that their price isn't the best, but they set up yours to best match your driving based on the information you provide... and it's the difference between hating them or loving them... implying that out of the box the JICs need profound tweaking for best results.

So anyone's guess is as good as mine. Don't you just love the internet? I feel so much more informed.

Found out recently that HotBits' kits for the VR4 will probably work... will it really? I don't know and probably won't dare to spend the money to find out. www.hotbits.org

 

[cait sith]

Meanwhile RRE openly admits that their price isn't the best, but they set up yours to best match your driving based on the information you provide... and it's the difference between hating them or loving them... implying that out of the box the JICs need profound tweaking for best results.

As much as I love RRE, I find it rather insulting that they're charging 1900 dollars for a set of JIC's out of the box (untuned), while other places are selling the same damn set for 1500 dollars.

A hundred or two hundred bucks, I could deal with. But a difference of 400 dollars? Unless they are custom valving with spring rates, I'm questioning how good they can get. A lest costly solution if you want to go JIC's might be to buy them, throw them on, and take them to a local suspension setup guru. But that's just me.

EVO 1-3 suspension also fit 1G's with little fuss, IIRC. That means you can play with all the fun stuff like HKS/Cusco/better Tein dampers etc.

 

[PaulPDX]

As much as I love RRE, I find it rather insulting that they're charging 1900 dollars for a set of JIC's out of the box (untuned), while other places are selling the same damn set for 1500 dollars.

I think it's 1900 tuned but not installed from RRE. Their out of the box price is under $1800. The tuning involves shock body length and spring rate.

Out of the box is $1500 from Horsepowerfreaks... which is local to me. Spring rate is no big deal to me, I can deal with a stiff ride even in my mid 30s. But the shock body length is what worries me. The suckers just have too many variables to play with and with that in mind RRE might be right in their "love them or hate them" claim in regards to their tuning vs. out of the box.

I will probably end up with the Tein SS and EDFC since my car will be less than 10% track. The whole setup will cost less than a tuned JIC. Heck, it cost the same as the lower out of the box price for the JIC's and you can tune damping on the fly. Both have camber plates... a good thing.

Neither have tender springs (which, for the money, I think all coilovers should have). In terms of application and price, the Teins are better. I think the rusting issues were from the first units Tein imported from Japan. I don't think they salt roads over there. Tein has facilities in the states now so that problem should have been fixed by now. Not sure if the SS are monotube though... doesn't matter since it isn't meant for fulltime competition use.

 

[cait sith]

Price according to RRE is:

JIC FLT-A2 Set
Parts Only
$1900#

JIC FLT-A2 Set
With Set-Up
$2000

JIC FLT-A2 Set
Installed/Aligned
$2200

Better get the Astroglide™ out, boys, because this is a big 'un.

And Tein's are a twin-tube setup until you start getting into their higher-end stuff.

Also another possibility is the FLTA2-RS trim setup by JIC, who claim to optimize the shock with your car. http://www.jic-magic.com/productsjic_susp_flta2rs.htm I dunno.

 

[HokieDSM]

Good links here guys - I have to agree with you about RRE's pricing - I've thought it to be pretty high, and it seems like they just raised it recently, because not long ago they were only charging $1700 for the FLT-A2s without tuning. Those FLTA2-RSs dont seem to have a price - I suppose it depends on how much tuning you want done. RRE's work seems pretty much out of the question anyhow, considering they're 3000 miles away from where I live.

I'd been thinking about the Tein SS's too - but my understanding was that the EDFC wouldn't fit our cars because we don't have enough room for the circuitry for clearence - at least that's the impression the Tein site gave me.

I'd been heavily leaning towards getting the DSS sleeve coilovers with Konis from DSS - they build each set of coilovers to your specifications, which they say takes about 30 days - and I haven't heard a bad thing about their work - and for a complete setup it'd only be about $900 or so. Seems like a pretty good deal... with the most tuning for our cars and per application outside of going for the JICs.

 

[PaulPDX]

Wow. RRE did raise the price. Man... I should've gotten them when I had the $.

The JIC RS model is probably even more expensive.

For 1Gs, the SS is the only thing available.

RRE is in LA so that probably explains the high pricing.

Hmm... interesting, Tein took off the EDFC part number for 1Gs since the last time I check. Well bummer. I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and go for JICs from Horsepowerfreaks or pray for H&R and Koni to come up with something.

Are the DSS like GC's with Konis? The thing I don't like about that is you can't adjust the rear without removing the shock since the adjusters are on top... defeats the purpose of having adjustable shocks.

Man this really sucks. I don't want to experiment with the EVO coilovers either. "Should" or "might" fit is just too risky.

 

[PaulPDX]

Just sent an email to JIC to see what the MSRPs are for the two models... also asked their take on the whole pricing and "tuning" issue. Would have done it sooner but had problems with my email client starting yesterday... couldn't send.

Anyway, I did some metric conversion calculations on the spring rates of the JIC FLT-A2.

Here they are compared to Tein SS.

*******[JIC]------------[Tein]
Front:__448-------------503
Rear:___392-------------391

All numbers are in lb/in

The front springs rates... I had expected the JICs to be higher considering all the "hard core" references to the kit.

Now, I know spring rates alone don't tell the whole story... but based on the rates, which do you think would have the edge on the other?

I guess that too general of a question... which would be more neutral? which more lively?

I am guessing the JIC would be more livelier since the softer front would allow more weight transfer to the front in hard breaking/cornering.... which reflects what I have read in owner reviews. Makes me wonder if RRE actually does any "tuning" on majority of sets they sell. MSRP on the FLT-A2 is $1850 according to Horsepowerfreaks.com.

 

[HokieDSM]

Paul - thanks for sending out that email - let us know what they send back.

I don't know enough about the respective kits to be able to answer your question comparing the two so I can't respond to that - but as far as RRE's concerned - it really depends on how you classify it. RRE seems to spell it out pretty well on their site - that for the base price you just get the setup pretty much out of the box with spring rates specific for your application- and at the other end of the spectrum they are certainly doing tuning seeing as they have your car for practically a day's worth of labor & testing - so I'd see it hard to believe that they're not really doing much with all that time.

The curiosity is what exactly the midground is for that "With setup" option for $2000 is - is anyone on the boards here running the JICs who could comment on any of this?

Incidentally, if what horsepowerfreaks is saying is true, then RRE is selling the kit above MSRP. Maybe it's just covering for the changed springrates. However, I'd be happy to give John Mueller the benefit of the doubt for his setup work - I've heard too many good things to be skeptical there. I just wonder if they're raising the baseprice to cover for the extra labor of Mueller's work.

Info on the JIC is always a plus, but I'd still like some testomonials from folks who've used the Tein SS-P kit to get a better comparison.

 

[neuralracing]

I just looked at my bank account and it seems that I am suddenly on a budget. I have to get shocks for my car and I definetly want to lower the ride height and improve handling. with the first being the highest priority since the shocks are shot, the second being something I would like to do now or very soon and the third being something I could do gradually.

With that being said... what approach should I take... they way I see it is a set of AGX shocks and springs will run me about $700... with a little more I can get a decent coil over setup... My budget is about $1K.

What do you guys recommend?

 

[PaulPDX]

Hokie

The additional cost from RRE is probably to cover John's expertise. Considering his background, I have no dobuts about whether he knows what he's doing. He did after all set the fastest lap times in SCC's Ultimate Street Car Challenge... in a 2G set up for drag no less.

The $2000 price tag is only for tuning based on questions he asks you about your driving etc. There is not test drive or installation involved. The set up you get is basically based on John's informed intuition and experience with previous units sold.

You won't get the full deal unless you pay $2200 for installation and testing.

The JIC email bounced. Apparently the address they provide on their site is no good. :thumbdown Based on that, I don't know how they'll be in business for long? I mean they're scared enough to not take questions from potential customers... makes you wonder.

neural

With a budget of $1k, you're best bet is probably the DSS coilovers with Konis. I would not go with the AGXs. Lot of people say they're satisfied with them but I think it's only because it's what they own and have nothing to compare it to aside from stock. I've owned a VW with full blown H&R coilovers with Bilstein built dampers, and I've driven a friend's 2G with AGXs and Konis. The AGXs are crap. No shock marketed as a performance or sport shock as they are should ride like they do. I'll catch flak for that, but I don't care. Truth prevails.

 

[neuralracing]

Are the DSS's a better setup than the GCC's?

 

[PaulPDX]

No idea... but DSS supposedly help you pick out spring rates. With GCCs I think you just get whatever they give you.

 

[PaulPDX]

Sent an email earlier to Tein to get some info and what their thoughts are on the subject... Here's their response:

According to our technical data, there is enough clearance for adjustment.
The click assemblies are located on top the piston rod and we currently do
not have any notes referring to fitment issues. Also, EDFC is compatible
with the Type SS-P (D27A).

As far as comparing the Type SS-P with JIC's FLT-A2, it will be extremely
difficult. We would like for you to have an unbiased opinion, therefore,
can not help you there. We can tell you that we do have an in-house
overhaul service as well as a revalve service, where you can custom tune
your suspension with stiffer/ softer spring rates. We also have the
conveniences of EDFC. We have used advanced technology to design a shell
case and stroke within a damper
to bring out the full potential of your vehicle. The features of the TEIN
Super Street Damper kit are designed for greater performance to satisfy
all your driving demands. This high performance damper can be used for
weekend racing and/or daily driving. The discomfort caused by uneven roads
or bumps is eliminated when used for daily street driving. For race use, the
ride height adjustable system enables you to adjust ride height and 16
levels of damping
force for better performance and handling. In other words, you can adjust
your vehicle to meet all situations!

We hope this helps! If you have any further questions, feel free to contact
us. Thank you.


Best regards,
Sales

Staff @ TEIN USA INC.

 

[HokieDSM]

Great first paragraph, although the rest sounds like it was lifted direct off of their website. And for the record...

the ride height adjustable system enables you to adjust ride height and 16 levels of damping force for better performance and handling. In other words, you can adjust your vehicle to meet all situations!

Not quite, since the setup even at max height is still lower than stock - and I'd want stock height or better for roadrallies & for winter snow driving. <- This is a primary feature that I'm looking for in a coilover setup, and one that only the JICs seem to meet so far, although the customizability of the DSSs may offer some similar capability from what I've gathered.

For anyone without that qualification requirement, the SS-Ps sound like a the best option for a 1G setup.

 

[PaulPDX]

Looking at the spring rates, I'd say the untuned JIC's should be just fine.

The Tein response was a bit disappointing but I kind of expected it. Like you, I thought the first paragraph was starting get interesting... and the rest went "blah blah blah".

HopUp actually has the lower price on the JICs right now. Horsepowerfreaks had them on sale a few months back for under $1500 but I guess it's no longer on sale. Back up to over $1600.

 

[PaulPDX]

Good point, Sith.

The email I sent to JIC went through apparently... here is their response:

Hi,

The MSRP of the FTL-A2 for your vehicle is $1850. RRE
didn't do anything special to the suspension.
Whatever he sells you is whatever we have setup in
house. The set from any of my dealer are ready to use
right out of the box. There is no need to re-tune the
suspension. All you need to do is adjust the
dampening and ride height to your desireable ride
quality and height.

Regards,

Ben
JIC USA

Interesting?

 

[3literpwr]

JIC is not a good option.... The 4 I tested did very strange things on the shock dyno and where very inconsistant..... NOTE the shock where softer than stock units for that car and had springs 7x the rate!!! Also the adjusters all did some thing different....... I cant say that I have a great option for you guys cuz I dont but all im trying to say is JIC is NO WHERE NEAR what people say they are... Those people are not trained in the art of build and testing shocks...... And if any one says he was fast that really does not mean much either..... I was faster than LOTS of cars with my stock suspension on my old 944S2 at local
laping days and track test days.....

I have valved, dynoed and disasembled almost every shock that you can lay your hands on and can tell you that it is an inferior product.....

Aother products that are not so hot... DMS and GC's advanced design shocks (which are not so advanced)

IF anyone want dyno data showing the wacky adjustment ranges and the fact that there was more bump force than rebound force please PM and ill email you a file.....

DONT waste your money on junk!

another thing I hear is people saying that want a great handling car but they dont want it harsh? well this can be difficult to do! a properly damped 300lbs spring will be quite stiff....
Unlike the JICs that where under damped and mated to a high spring so the car felt ok around town (not to harsh) but didnt lean in the corners cuz the heavy spring rates.. Not the correct way to go about things....

I know everyone thinks AGX's are junk but actually they performe well on the dyno showing little lags and a good adjustment range... I just wish they didnt adjust both compression and rebound at the same time...


ok thats all for now.....
Please excuse all my gramatical errors i dont profread...

Cheers
Larry
#622 scca club rally
shock design, tuning and other motorsport services......

 

[neuralracing]

Whats your opion on Tein?

 

[cait sith]

Many teams in the Open Track Challenge (http://www.opentrackchallenge.com) are currently running JIC's with positive results and decent enough praise. Whether or not you take their word for it is up to you.

I've hammered out an e-mail to Justin DuBois as to what exactly goes into what Mueller does with the JIC units. It's a 2G, but it's all relative. http://www.roadraceengineering.com/jicmail.htm

Edit: Got a response out of him, although it seems he didn't really know what goes on in the setup that John does (Didn't get a direct answer). Seemed quite pleased with the units on the track, at least.

If AGX's are considered junk by everyone yet they've got such positive results on the shock dyno, surpassing even Koni, why are they considered so crappy? I'm curious on this... People who are going from AGX and Shocktek setups to JIC seem pretty pleased, although that could be our favorite term on this board of cognative dissonance.

All I know right now is that my shocks are pissing oil all over my wheels and it's a paycheck away until I have to make a decision.

 

[3literpwr]

AGX's are a decent damper but are just valved wrong for the 1g street app.......
As for tein I dunno yet.... I am waiting for a local guy to give me a set for testing after that happens I will let you know......

I still am a fan of the HOTBITS parts and think that the VR4 setup will work well for
many people.... Shit they are lasting on rally cars! and they car be revalved.....

Driving is 80% driver or more so good results at the OTC could be seen with sticky tires and stock shocks!!

My old 944S2 is raced OTC in california by Dan lofgren car number #944 in T3 class......

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

If your leaking shocks are shockteks I can rebuild them.... (pm for info)


Cheers
Larry

 

[cait sith]

Naw, I'm just running stock crap right now, not shockteks.

We run Carrera shocks on an SCCA National's G production Spitfire, which is a bit overboard for the street, and I'm just really trying to find out what is the best DSM damper without going full Penske/Bilstein custom setup is.

Perhaps you should mail those shock dyno results to JIC and ask them what's up with their stuff for the VR4, unless you already did and they sort of shooed you away.