BEP hx35 track results, time slips, datalogs (poor results holset pros chime in)

[doesitonall4rs]

Ok guys just got back from the track. I'll give you the run down on the car before I post my results. I have shitty videos (ill upload the videos later), datalogs, and time slips.

Anyways I have not gone to the track for quite sometime now so I was very excited to go.

My car is 1991 AWD.

Engine: Stock long block, ARP head studs. BC272/272

Intake/Turbo: BEP HX35 (8 blade), FP 4 inch intake, 2G MAF, Old Extreme PSI short route intake, forge BOV, Stock IM.

Fuel: 1000CC FIC injectors, hotwired 255 fuel pump, Aeromotive AFPR, 630ml/min Devil's own meth nozzle and 150psi Devil's own pump. Running 100% meth and 93 pump gas.

Drivetrain: Stock Trans, ACT 2900 running an unsprung 6 puck.

Exhaust: HAFE cast manifold with 38mm flange cast on manifold, 38mm wastegate, ported evo3 O2 housing, 3inch custom turbo back exhaust the came with the car.

Ok the car is running 30psi and around 19-22* of timing. A/F is around 10.9-11.3. I am using NLTS and Launch Control set at 5000RPM.

Car is number 27

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The time slips are in the order that I ran. I also forgot to save the datalog from the first pass

As far as the car goes the only time I really messed up was when I ran the 15.4 because I raised the launch limit to 5250 and the car just spun then fell out of boost in 2nd gear, other then that everything was pretty good, never missed a shift was fairly happy with my 60foots.

So it really leads me to believe that it could be my tune or something related to that. Yesterday before I went to the track I found 3 boost leaks and fixed them all. Minus the stupid forge BOV leaking at the base but it was a fairly small leak I just cant imagine that the BOV leak could affect the ETs THAT much. But you guys are the experts I have never taken this car to the track in the last 4 years I have owned it.

I guess let me know what you guys think unless I really fudged up and the boost leak is really screwing me over more than I think. Maybe the datalogs can tell something?

Thanks for looking any input is greatly appreciated!


Also not to sound like a douche but I have had this car together on this set up for about 3 years now running 30psi and daily driving it to work. I don't want you guys to think I am just throwing this car together and trying to break it or anything crazy like that.

 

[donniekak]

I'm going to say 50% driver mod, and 50% setup/tune. The one run with the 117 mph trap shows it's making power for 11's, as does picking up 28mph on the big end. Bad launch, and bad 1-2 shifts i'd guess.

What kind of shape is the trans in? Slow shifting, and falling out of boost kills traps, and times in turbo cars.

 

[bradikus7]

Yeah man something definitely seems off. I am no pro but I am running a very similar setup. I did see in the 1 log I looked at some warm coolant temps also boostest only showing a max of 28psi. Also saw a max of 44lbs/min which my car makes that around 24psi (which is my max boost right now). I am on stock cams, less timing, stock IM and just regular 93 pump no meth. I don't have time slips to compare but it seems you should be much faster.

I too am hoping for some pros to chime in to confirm this is not the norm. Infact I read the other day in the holset thread of a 1g in the 10's on an HX35 .55BEP setup. I'll see if I can locate that.

EDIT: I apologize it was a low 11 time but still at only 28psi.

Turbo: Holset HX-35/Mitsu Bullseye bolt on housing

Boost Level: 28psi

Compression: 7:8:1 (re-ringed std. 6-bolt)

Tires: 225/50/16 All Seasons

Nitrous: None

Transmission: Stock Unmodified

Full Mod List: Ported Evo3 Manifold, Holset HX-35/Bullseye Housing, 40mm External Dumped, 3" o2 Elim. Turbo-Back Exhaust, Walbro 255, SX AFPR, PTE 780cc Injectors, 4" K&N/Intake, Greddy RS BOV, Bored 63mm Throttle Body, Taylor Plug Wires, ExtremeIntercoolers 7" FMIC Kit, Prothane Motor Mounts, Meth. Injection Kit, Ralli-Art Short Shifter, Boost Gauge, Turbo Timer, Hallman MBC, AEM Wideband o2, Mishimoto Aluminum Radiator, DSMLink, 3" GM Maft V2.02
Stock rebuild - Re-ringed motor with ARP Headstuds/Cometic Head Gasket, No Balance Shafts, BCrower-272 Cams, Revised Lifters
ACT 2600, Fidanza Flywheel
K-Sport Coilovers, ST Rear Sway Bar, Mazda RX-7 14lb 16x8's wrapped in 225-50-R16, 2g AWD Dual Piston Calipers/Rotors, Ingalls Rear Control Arms

1/4 Mile: 11.292 @ 126.120
1/8 Mile: 7.467 @ 103.590
60' Time: 1.870

DSMLink Estimated 460hp/380tq on my 28psi/11.2 1/4mile run.

 

[Mr Peepers]

I don't know why it's not running quite like I'd expect for the boost level, afr and timing.

I would start by messing with the timing a little. First, verify that base timing is 5* BTDC.
Then maybe get your timing curve to gradually ramp to 20* or whatever you feel comfortable with/the car likes. Right now it's following the 1g timing curve by peaking at 24* at 6k then dropping after that. 24* seems a bit much for me at 6k and 30psi but hell, your car may like it. I would maybe keep timing at 20* at 6k then ramp to 22 by 7k. Generally it should be a smooth ramp in timing as rpms rise/torque naturally falls.

What does the car weigh with you in it? Temperature that day/night? Some sort of way to get cooler air from outside the engine bay may help as well.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

I'm going to say 50% driver mod, and 50% setup/tune. The one run with the 117 mph trap shows it's making power for 11's, as does picking up 28mph on the big end. Bad launch, and bad 1-2 shifts i'd guess.

What kind of shape is the trans in? Slow shifting, and falling out of boost kills traps, and times in turbo cars.

Its possible that it could be my driving but I dont know man my trans shifts pretty smooth and I am using NLTS so the car isnt exactly falling out of boost. But maybe I do just need more time at the track.

Yeah man something definitely seems off. I am no pro but I am running a very similar setup. I did see in the 1 log I looked at some warm coolant temps also boostest only showing a max of 28psi. Also saw a max of 44lbs/min which my car makes that around 24psi (which is my max boost right now). I am on stock cams, less timing, stock IM and just regular 93 pump no meth. I don't have time slips to compare but it seems you should be much faster.

I too am hoping for some pros to chime in to confirm this is not the norm. Infact I read the other day in the holset thread of a 1g in the 10's on an HX35 .55BEP setup. I'll see if I can locate that.

EDIT: I apologize it was a low 11 time but still at only 28psi.

Hmm I am kind of confused then. You think my airflow numbers could be off because my 2G maf doesnt have any honeycombs in it? I really didnt think my driving was that horrible but it is always a possibility. i was always kind of confused by my airflow numbers because on my Wifes talon she is running a 20G and at 22psi she is hitting 43lb/min, but my car so much harder then hers.

I hope more people can chime in but I really appreciate all the idea guys, there is like a million things running through my head and I am stumped.

I don't know why it's not running quite like I'd expect for the boost level, afr and timing.

I would start by messing with the timing a little. First, verify that base timing is 5* BTDC.
Then maybe get your timing curve to gradually ramp to 20* or whatever you feel comfortable with/the car likes. Right now it's following the 1g timing curve by peaking at 24* at 6k then dropping after that. 24* seems a bit much for me at 6k and 30psi but hell, your car may like it. I would maybe keep timing at 20* at 6k then ramp to 22 by 7k. Generally it should be a smooth ramp in timing as rpms rise/torque naturally falls.

What does the car weigh with you in it? Temperature that day/night? Some sort of way to get cooler air from outside the engine bay may help as well.

Thats a good idea about double checking the timing I havent really done that for awhile. I also will mess with the timing more as well.

I am not too sure what my car weighs but the only weight reduction it has is all the plastics, carpet, and spare is out in the trunk. (it was like that when I bought it). It still has all the bumper supports on and such so I think it probably weighs very close to stock.

As far as temperature it was actually quite a cool night. Probably around 40-45*F. The track is at 93 Feet from seal level I believe.

 

[bastarddsm]

Somthings off here. I was trapping in your area on my hx35 with 25psi and straight pump gas. No meth, and I have a garbage fmic. I couldn't run over like 11* timing at full boost.
Like peepers said check your timing.

Also, go out make a long 4th/5th gear pull and then post a pic of a spark plug.

I'd expect you to be trapping 120 with that much boost and meth.

Find out what your ait's are too.

is your motor solid? With those cams and stock pistons your should have on the order of 130psi compression. Check that and make sure your cams are timed right. It's easy to get the one off a tooth. You can check it with a dial back timing light. Set the ignition timing, then dial back the like to -5*. Then you can check that the cam gear marks line up.

 

[945liter]

Like said verify timing, sounds like your kinda shifting slow and what RPM are you shifting at? its hard to tell in the video but doesnt sound like you reved it out much.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

Shifting the car at ~7000rpms yea like I said the videos are pretty useless my brother filmed in such a shitty spot. I am going to check timing today and check for boost leaks to make sure nothing crazy developed on my 1st pass.

 

[nightracer91]

video links don't work...

 

[doesitonall4rs]

They appear to be working for me. Is anybody else having this issue?

 

[forcefed86]

Still sounds like leaking charge to me. I'd go back and double check your charge piping and fix the BOV leak. Could also try capping off the bov and make a pull see if your boost raises or falls. I'll second the lower timing. No need to have it that high IMO. I would think you should be in the 120+ range. My full weight e316g trapped 119 at 30psi falling to 23 or so by redline.

 

[turboglenn]

I'll look at the logs after dinner (for what i'm worth in DSMlink anyway) but ither way something isn't right..

I would first guess ong shifting time, second..that i dont' know yet

But i know almost 10years ago on 100low lead av gas mixed with what pump fuel was left when i got toi the track, on a 57 trim, stock 7 bolt, 720's and haltech managment i trapped 119mph and ET'ed at 12.08 MPH and i was barely over 21-22psi of boost (slicks on FWD car)

i'll examine the logs later and see what i spot if i spot anythig at all

 

[doesitonall4rs]

Guys I really appreciate all the help, the car is just sitting in the garage as I brainstorm and think about what else to check ontop of the other stuff other guys have suggested in this thread.

Do you guys think that a 2G MAF with no honeycombs what so ever could yeild poor results like this? I know when I have ran 2G mas with no honeycombs on other DSMs they have ran like complete shit at WOT. But I really don't feel like my car runs shitty at WOT.

Also guys I dont know if this helps but I also log the Clutch Switch from doing a bit of math on my fastest pass I got these numbers from my shifts.

1 - 2: 0.860 sec
2 - 3: 0.738 sec
3 - 4: 0.737 sec

What is considered fast on a manual car without straight cut gears? I know the GT-R shifts in like 0.2 seconds but thats tiptronic and who knows what else.

 

[turboglenn]

That's 2.35 secons lost to shifting, I don't know what's "fast" as i grany shift to be nice to my partts. but look at talon dave's videos and you'll see shifts taking place at under .2 seconds per shift easily (that man can work manual trns) and that was before his gear box/dog box

but the thing that gets me is MPH doesn't lie, doesnt fall prey to poor shits as bad either adn the MPH i prtty low, like i said earlier, i made 119mph traps on a FWD open diff with slicks (spun the right one all through 2nd gear) and was only at 22 psi max.

What about BOV leaking or did io miss soething about that already? something surely isn't right, i just wish i could see your full tables like in V3 link

but of course it's not all the turbo, there's so many factors that could come into play.. things like poorly designed or too sharpo bends in IC or exhaust pipes, and a miliion other things. The reason i've done sos well on so little is by examining EVERY thing in the car's intake/exhaust and combustion process/systems and eliminating EVERY possible restriction

How about some underhood shots?

I would lean out the AFR's though, you should be able to pull near 12.0 or leaner witrh meth + pump (i was rich and breaking up in low 11's, it wasn't untill i tuned for 11.8 to 12.0 areas that i made good power on meth plus pump....also, is your timing starting at 9* or really low and slowly climbing to the areas you posted? I'v emade much much more power starting wtih timing in the 16* range at say 4000RPM and full spool and then climbing tomake up for the RPM's needing the burn to start earlier, you could be giving up valuable torque and HP due to a poor curve (just a thought)

 

[doesitonall4rs]

Guys stupid question but do upgraded valve springs/retainers add vibration to the car? I just swapped to BC springs and retainers and the car vibrates like crazy now. It always had a vibration before but now its insane.

 

[bastarddsm]

Do you still have balance shafts? You could have them out of time.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

It was the stupid balance shaft, I feel like a noob haha car runs great BTW.

Things I did

Changed the BOV back to a 1G BOV held boost no problem to 32psi.
Changed Springs and retainers to Brian Crower.
Changed MAF to a maf with honeycombs.

I was driving to the track but then I couldnt figure out how to increase the RPMs in my DSMlink past 8000. Set my rev limiter to 8200 but was scared because I don't know what would happen if I over reved as far and what would DSMlink do to try to figure out why its not on the fuel/timing map.

Also on the datalog my 70-90 times dropped from a 1.6XX to a 1.3XX. Hope to hit the track soon, while its still nice out.

 

[bastarddsm]

You don't need to rev it out that far on a stock intake and a bep housing. Shift that bi*** at like 6500-7000.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

Guys how can you visually tell if the spark plugs are fouled out?

 

[e85_4g63]

Guys how can you visually tell if the spark plugs are fouled out?

They are ~$2 a pop... "If in doubt, change them out"

 

[doesitonall4rs]

I already ordered a set from extremepsi, just waiting for them to come in. Car just started breaking up little by little then it got really bad, to the point that if I go WOT in 2nd or 3rd its just an insane amount of break up. I hope its the plugs pulled them out not sure how to tell if they are messed up.

 

[bastarddsm]

If in doubt throw em out. Other than the usuals, look for the electrodes to be rounded over. When you run em hard like this they really don't last long at all. I run Autolite 63's and replace about ever 1500.

I already ordered a set from extremepsi, just waiting for them to come in. Car just started breaking up little by little then it got really bad, to the point that if I go WOT in 2nd or 3rd its just an insane amount of break up. I hope its the plugs pulled them out not sure how to tell if they are messed up.

Don't do that, just goto an oriellys, or vatozone. Try some BR8ES'a They are not projected, so they should be a little more resistant to blow out.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

30psi on that turbo with those mods, should be well over 125mph traps. There is some serious power loss going on somewhere. I'm willing to bet base timing is set somewhere around 0*BTDC, or the compression is very low in the motor. Something ain't right.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

"If in doubt, change them out"

If in doubt throw em out.

This should definitely be the rule right under change timing belts/tensioners frequently .

Got NGK BPR8ES Gapped at .025, just took the car out, it was at 33psi for some reason but there was no knock, no break up, just felt fast. Going to the track tomorrow, hopefully I can run some decent times this time.

I changed the Base ign timing from ~2* to 5*, also changed the BOV from that POS leaky forge back to dodge garage modded stock BOV.

30psi on that turbo with those mods, should be well over 125mph traps. There is some serious power loss going on somewhere. I'm willing to bet base timing is set somewhere around 0*BTDC, or the compression is very low in the motor. Something ain't right.

Yea man I am not sure what was going on, I just know when I was at the track running a completely gutted 2G MAF my air flow readings were around ~44lbs/min. A week later I switched to a 2G Ungutted maf and my airflow readings were at 52-53lbs/min. (I am not sure if the maf reading incorrectly can affect performance) My 70-90 times also dropped by ~0.3. And like you said the base timing was set at ~2* which I also increased to 5*

So i am not sure which set of things dropped my 70-90 times because I did all of them at the same time. We'll see how she does tomorrow!

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

YOu will be surprised how much the quicker the car will be with added 3* of timing. Hang on!!!!