AWD Conversion/Swap Guys Enter Here - Advanced. [Merged 2-07]

[gorf]

Finally started mine - last weekend I stripped the GST stuff off. This weekend I started the cutting and fabricating. I printed out all of the pics from the above mentioned link of Jay's conversion. Everything was going well until I got to the point where you install the front gst bolt for the gsx rear carrier. If you look at the pic's that Jay did of his spyder conversion, he cut a hole in the frame to insert the bolt, that is what I was planning on doing. One major snafu - on my passenger side where you would cut the hole there was a cluster of steel brake and fuel lines - did not think I could move them easily. Second snafu - again looking at Jay's picture, where he cut the hole is low on the frame and there is a heavy duty frame reinforcement welded inside the frame at that point, look closely at the spot welds. I did not want to cut out the much reinforcement.

After staring and poking and probing for a couple hours, here is the solution that I came up with. I drill three large holes on the outside of the frame and used a sawzall to cut between them. After the bolt was installed I drilled a hole and inserted a bolt which was tack welded to hold the bolt inside, down. I then welded a cover plate/reinfocement back over the hole.

Spyder guys, How did you do your front bolt?

 

[samnumba1]

y didnt you just come from the top and not cut any renforcement?

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[gorf]

y didnt you just come from the top and not cut any renforcement?

yup the bolt for a GST is a lot easier to get to.

Spyders have a large welded in bracket for the convertible top mechanism. I looked long and hard at it, you just about have to pull all of the mechanism, the boot and then using a long extension, you "might" be able to cut from the top.

But thanks for the pic - best shot of bolt location I've seen.

 

[samnumba1]

yup just got the info from (jcurcillo)... the bracket is blocking it heres the pic he gave me

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[TSi999]

Yea i just finished this.. AWD IS AWESOME!!!! !

This is late but Congats!! Nice work and best wishes!

 

[samnumba1]

thanks!! Ive become adicted to rallying, it was worth it for that (o yea and traction)... next goal low 12second 1/4 and autox champ!

 

[samnumba1]

Great news guys jcurcillo has made a VFAQ on FWD>AWD conversion. heres the link... 2G (1995 – 1999) Eclipse/Talon AWD Conversion maybe put under tech?

 

[gorf]

Great news guys jcurcillo has made a VFAQ on FWD>AWD conversion. heres the link... 2G (1995 – 1999) Eclipse/Talon AWD Conversion maybe put under tech?

AWESOME!
Most complete write up I have seen!

one minor edit - get a "mechanical finger" used to pick up dropped things in tight spots. Using one of these I was able to insert all but one of the new gas tank bolts. The one hole that I had to cut, was passenger side front.

For time to complete, I am not fast, and have about 80 hours into right now. This time includes adding cams, walbro 255, afpr, e3 exhaust manifold and new carpet. About the only things left are to put intake and radiator back in, bleed brakes and clutch, install exhaust.
Plus the time it took to clean up the donor parts which were covered with rust - about another 50-60 hours

 

[TSi999]

Excellent write up. Thanks for sharing!

Does anyone have any info on the e-brake cable routing?

 

[samnumba1]

yea its easy... thats about it... you will see the new place it bolts up to when your down there... not 100% fit but it will slip over a stud and you just thread a nut behind it. You will know it when you see it

 

[Scrymerr]

I just wanted to check back to this thread and see how it was going with the latest AWD swappers. I looked at that vfaq, and cringed when I saw one thing in particular:

When prepping the underbody of the car to weld on the carrier bearing brackets, do NOT undercoat anywhere near where you are about to weld. The undercoating near the welds will burn off when welding, can contaminate the weld, and will offer no corrosion protection. Instead, grind all the paint off in a strip about 3cm wide where your spotwelds will be. This will ensure a proper surface to weld on to. Next grind all the paint off of the face of the brackets that you will be welding underneath the car. Then prime all metal surfaces with weld-through primer. Weld through primer is made with zinc, and will not contaminate your weld, or burn off. Instead, it will allow you to weld clean, while protecting the otherwise bare metal surfaces that are touching. This is important as it is easy for moisture to collect here. After your piece is welded on, then you can go about undercoating/painting, or otherwise applying whatever substance you want to beautify/protect.

For those of you who will read this and say, "Well I didn't use weld-through primer, and my brackets are fine," you are right; I am sure they are OK. The time it would take for the use of weldthrough primer (or lack thereof) to become evident, is probably longer than you will own the vehicle. However, when spotwelding pieces like this together, it is just very bad practice to not use weld-through primer. It costs about $5, and is available at some/most auto parts stores and welding supply stores. When spending all this time on an AWD swap, do it right. Your welds will turn out cleaner, stronger, and will resist corrosion a lot longer.

Another thing I would like to add from my experience swapping a spyder: when cutting into the framerail like the guy did in the vfaq, I would advise against using a holesaw like that, and then welding that plate over. Instead, cut a little 'trap door' on the rail, and then put the new bolt in. Additionally, if you looked at my pictures, the large, thick, square washers work great for added strength, and will prevent the bolt from spinning. Weld a similar tab in if you would like to prevent the bolt from going up too far into the frame. If you did this carefully, you will be able to close the framerail back up, and repair it 'good as new'. It will be both strong, and look great.

 

[Scrymerr]

Pictures from my most recent (and last) AWD swap on a friends spyder. Unfortunately I do not have more pictures than these right now.

 

[gorf]

Pictures from my most recent (and last) AWD swap on a friends spyder. Unfortunately I do not have more pictures than these right now.

Man you california guys sure are lucky - no rust! My car is a Florida car and it is not near that clean!

Finally got mine done, still working out some minor bugs. My donor was a POS so I am basically replacing most everything that I should have before putting it in the car.

For the drive shaft carriers, I used steel pop rivets to put them in. My welding sucked, I know they build airplanes with pop rivets so thought I would try it. The trick is to do it like they build airplanes. Use STEEL rivets space them so they are at least 1/4 inch apart and 3/4 at the max, like going around the holes where the spot welds used to be. Use 3/8 long rivets, these are long enough to go through the thick parts and still spread when popped. Strip the metal bare and put a bead of epoxy between the carrier and the body. I used JB weld, but I am sure there are better epoxies to use. Check out "aircraft spruce" They sell the best rivets "Cherry Max" and they sell metal epoxy for aircraft construction. Even if you are going to weld I recommend a couple pop rivets to hold the carriers in place before you weld. So far so good 300 miles and day at the drag strip and no movement yet.

Flame on

 

[TSi999]

That was a great idea Gorf! I went the same route to place them to test fit the driveshaft and before welding. Thanks!

 

[daren_p]

Hey guys, did some damage to the fwd tranny this past weekend at the track & was thinking now may be a good time to do the awd swap. I've done a bunch of reading but still have some questions. First, I may have found a doner car locally but it's high mileage, with rust, etc so will need a complete rebuild. I don't think this will be a huge issue but I'm trying to figure out what all I can save from my fwd (as its mint) so I don't have to buy new OEM parts for items that can't be "reconditioned". I thought I read you can use the fwd parking brake cable is this correct? What about the filler necks, are parts of them the same or are they completely different? (while quickly through CAPS, I believe the upper portion is the same & the lower is different (though I guess that may change depending on the model year). For the rear knuckles, does it matter if they are from an ABS or non ABS car, since my car is non ABS? Also if the doner has the factory vented rear rotors (need to check), will my non vented brake setup bolt up?

Also my car is a 98 & the doner is a 95 I believe. Is there any reason that I should be looking for a 97-99 doner or does it matter? I believe the 95-96 transfer cases & rear ends (& maybe trannies?) have different gear ratios, is there any reason to choose one over the other? (or do the final drive ratios work out to be the same?). Also being the doner is a 95 & I'm a 98 I know though the years they changed some emissions related components, will this create an issue for me as I do have to pass regular emissions testing here (no CEL's showing & a tail pipe test)

 

[99gst_racer]

I thought I read you can use the fwd parking brake cable is this correct?

Maybe. Most people use the AWD cable just because it's much easier to detach them from the handle than from the hub. I've never disassembled the rear hubs before, so I don't know how easy/difficult it is to remove the cables. But I assume there is no differences in the cables themselves.

What about the filler necks, are parts of them the same or are they completely different?

Yes and no. Some years of DSM's had the charcoal canister and other evap stuff on the filler neck. That made it a PITA to re-use the FWD filler neck. I ended up using the AWD neck on my car as it was much more simple and easy. But, I'm pretty sure you can make the FWD filler neck work.

For the rear knuckles, does it matter if they are from an ABS or non ABS car, since my car is non ABS?

No, that won't matter because the ABS ring is on the CV axle cups. Just remove the wiring that connects to the spindles and subframe and you're good to go.

Also if the donor has the factory vented rear rotors (need to check), will my non vented brake setup bolt up?

That, I don't now. I'm not familiar enough with brake combinations to be able to accurately answer this one. But I can say that I ended up using my FWD vented rotors, calipers, and caliper brackets on my AWD subframe/knuckles. I just can't remember if the original rotors on the AWD donor car were solid or vented (I would guess vented though).

Also my car is a 98 & the doner is a 95 I believe. Is there any reason that I should be looking for a 97-99 doner or does it matter?

No, you'll be fine with a '95 donor. My donor was a '95 GSX.

I believe the 95-96 transfer cases & rear ends (& maybe trannies?) have different gear ratios, is there any reason to choose one over the other? (or do the final drive ratios work out to be the same?).

As far as I know, the final drives are all the same on the 2G M/T cars. As long as you are pulling all the components off of the same car, they will all be matched and you'll be fine.

Also being the doner is a 95 & I'm a 98 I know though the years they changed some emissions related components, will this create an issue for me as I do have to pass regular emissions testing here (no CEL's showing & a tail pipe test)

Yes, there was different emissions set-ups for different years. As long as you keep the emissions equipment that you currently have, then you'll be fine.

 

[daren_p]

Wow, thanks Paul that helps out alot. So being your a 99, I would think our emissions "junk" back there would be similar, so were you able to hook the parts back up to the 95 tank? The doner probably has about 140K on it (& probably seen winter use), so I'm thinking things like the parking brake cables will probably be in bad shape. I'm trying to get the VIN off the doner to see if their swappable. Same thing with the filler neck, if not swappable, I'll need to see if their even still available from the dealer for a 95. All the other components will be stripped & powdercoated & bushings/balljoints will be replaced with new.

 

[99gst_racer]

Wow, thanks Paul that helps out alot. So being your a 99, I would think our emissions "junk" back there would be similar, so were you able to hook the parts back up to the 95 tank? The doner probably has about 140K on it (& probably seen winter use), so I'm thinking things like the parking brake cables will probably be in bad shape. I'm trying to get the VIN off the doner to see if their swappable. Same thing with the filler neck, if not swappable, I'll need to see if their even still available from the dealer for a 95. All the other components will be stripped & powdercoated & bushings/balljoints will be replaced with new.

I ended up eliminating all of my emissions junk at the same time of the AWD swap. Mine were all connected to the filler neck. I never had the big charcoal canister up in the engine bay like most DSMs do. Where is your charcoal canister at?

Yeah, my donor car had some rust - definitely seen it's share of winters. Surprisingly though, most components were in good shape. Most of the rust was only toward the front of the car. The e-brake cables were in excellent shape, so I used them. I did re-use my '99 rear upper control arms too. The '95 ones had some rust and mine were pristine.

I also found it easier (for driveshaft alignment purposes) to remove your factory FWD front driveshaft support and stud it for the driveshaft, rather than use the one from the AWD car.

Does your FWD filler neck look this one, or is it naked?

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[daren_p]

I had the filler cover off not too long ago & am thinking mine looks like your (& don't think I have a charcoal canister in the engine bay) but will have to double check when I get a chance.

Paul (& anyone else who has done the swap), what kind of milage was on the doner car & what if any did you have rebuilt? Like was saying this one has ~220K kilometers (~135K miles) & everything is supposed to be in working order but am wondering if everything needs to be rebuilt right away, or are some things okay? Was planning on get the tranny built up abit to take some abuse, rebuild the transfer case while its out, replace the half shafts & also thinking about getting the driveshaft done & having the rear checked & freshened up if required. What are everyones thoughts on this?

 

[99gst_racer]

If you have the time and money to have everything freshened up, then go for it. That is never a bad idea. My donor car had somehwere around 130K on it when I bought it. He said it ran and drove fine before the t-belt snapped. I just had my tranny rebuild at TRE and that was it. But Jon did say the tranny had quite a bit of wear and probably wouldn't have lasted very long the way it was. Otherwise, I am using the t-case, driveshaft, and rear end just the way it came off of the donor car. I only replaced fill plugs, drain plugs, crush washers, and fluids. I haven't had any issues yet.

 

[daren_p]

Paul, mine is the same as yours, extra junk on the filler neck & the charcoal cannister is actually in the fuel tank.

On too my next question. Just to verify on the rear suspension, you need the rear awd knuckles but the upper control arms & both front & rear lower control arms are the same? I'm wondering because everywhere I recall reading says they are the same from fwd to awd but when I look at CAPS, it gives me a different part # for the rear lower control arms?

For the front suspension, its all the same correct? This is what I have read but I seem to be getting different part #'s for some pieces between fwd & awd. Also, the front wheel bearings are the same? I know the fwds have a larger shaft & different inner spline count on the half shafts, so want to verify my current front wheel bearings are okay?

 

[99gst_racer]

Paul, mine is the same as yours, extra junk on the filler neck & the charcoal cannister is actually in the fuel tank.

In that case, I would strongly recommend using the AWD fill neck.

On too my next question. Just to verify on the rear suspension, you need the rear awd knuckles but the upper control arms & both front & rear lower control arms are the same? I'm wondering because everywhere I recall reading says they are the same from fwd to awd but when I look at CAPS, it gives me a different part # for the rear lower control arms?

The upper rear control arms are the same - I'm not sure about the lowers. I'm currently using the AWD lowers, and FWD uppers in the rear. I'm also using my FWD rear trailing arms. I just verified with CAPS that those are the same for FWD and AWD.

For the front suspension, its all the same correct? This is what I have read but I seem to be getting different part #'s for some pieces between fwd & awd. Also, the front wheel bearings are the same? I know the fwds have a larger shaft & different inner spline count on the half shafts, so want to verify my current front wheel bearings are okay?

You shouldn't have to modify or change anything with the front suspension - I didn't. The axles that came off my '95 donor car fit perfectly in my '99 wheel bearings.

 

[daren_p]

Thanks again for the info Paul. I was going to see if I could work with my filler neck but like you said, more then likely I'll just go with the 95-96 filler neck. Only the rear lower for the rear suspension seems to have a different part # between the two. So, their not that expensive & it would be nice to have new balljoints there, so I'll just pick new awd ones up. Looks like I'm good on the front.

What about the intermediate shaft assembly (believe thats what its called, piece that you install the drivers side half shaft into). Looks like they had two version for 95-96 & changed for 97-99. Does this match the body year of the car or the drivetrain year? (think the issue is how it bolt to the block). Are you using the one from your doner Paul & did it bolt right up?

 

[99gst_racer]

What about the intermediate shaft assembly (believe thats what its called, piece that you install the drivers side half shaft into). Looks like they had two version for 95-96 & changed for 97-99. Does this match the body year of the car or the drivetrain year? (think the issue is how it bolt to the block). Are you using the one from your doner Paul & did it bolt right up?

Yeah, as long as the axles and intermediate shaft matches the tranny, you're fine. I had no issues bolting it all up on my '99. Just remember to use a spacer on the intermediate shaft mount if you don't have your A/C compressor mounting bracket on there anymore.

 

[daren_p]

Thanks, still have AC, so looks like I'm good. I'm working on sourching the parts so with any luck will have another awd owner next year . Though I'm sure I'll have more questions before then