Auto vs Stick

[edgar7654]

how much faster is stick vs auto in a gst...
ive only driven standard this would be my first automatic
thank you and god bless you

 

[TSimage]

sounds like you cant shift. you stating you have had these big turbos dosent make you a good driver. i know many people that have high HP cars that drag in manual and DD in it. i never see them QQ about rebuilding their transmission.

Can't shift? Are you telepathic? my friend. Where in there can you denote that I had issues shifting anything nor rebuilding my transmissions.

They were all upgrades. The OEM rebuild was due to some high school drop out with roughly your IQ (+or- a few)that decided he'd use a stingray to haul my car across town into another city 40minutes away. I'm re reading where in that post ti says I broke any of them or whined about rebuilding them? The point is people like me can afford the best of the best manual transmissions and not even we consider then superior to autos. The point of things like DogBoxes it to get even closer to the realm of an Auto as far as the ability to shift on demand as well as the strength and consistency. Regardless it comes with a HUGE cost. When you have $15K to spend on your drive train alone, you let me know .

Auto vs Manual. I think its funny that a lot of guys on here keep saying a manual is faster. Once the car itself is fast you just can't shift 5 gears in that short amount of time without hurting the quickness of the car. An auto will win out every time (not talking about from a roll). Theres a reason why all new 'sports' cars are coming out with 6-8 speed autos, it's because they're simply faster. Faster shifts, preloading the drivetrain and high stall launches, no driver error, and (nowadays) better gearing than most manuals. There are the rare manual cars now that do have better gearing than the autos but not many.


My question, that no one seems to answer, is for a DSM... only for a dsm (still lookin at which car I should buy, trying to learn as much as I can about these little cars).... is the boost launch worth it in AWD with auto???? It has to be a sick launch with tons of power, and that manual is fun and all but it's hard to compare it with preloading the drivetrain and taking off like a rocketship with AWD

An Auto will launch harder, smoother, at a higher PSI and will have less PSI drop between gears. There are no negatives to an Auto unless you are referring to track in which 99% of this site havent geared their car towards.

this is actually a great point. I couldn't imagine my gf driving any of my cars I would have some kind of anxiety attack

She cant drive my auto either. Takes the same amount of timing and arm movement to achieve a similar goal minus the extra pedal . It scares her to death, I think it is more so the fear of breaking it seeing that she can in fact drive stick half way decent if an emergency so required.

 

[dsm-onster]

Concerning tsimage, when you go fast enough to notice, we all can take your guarantees and bottem lines at face value.

And to the auto pilot whining, the point of racing is going faster. So here's some cheese for you whining: remote control throttle plates, trigger shifting, active yaw control... welcome to the 21st century. You cant criticize someone shifting faster/more consistant than you. Any more than a honda boi can criticize you for using a turbo. The point is going faster quicker. THAT'S racing. Period.

 

[Jrock11]

Manual is a racers choice just because you get more control of your vehicle but I have heard of some autos with shift kits in them that shift crazy fast but that's cheating!!!! haha

 

[dsm-onster]

Whooosh!

What more control do you have than shifting exactly as planned and faster than planned every time?

 

[EagleTalonTim]

From personal experience, I prefer the Auto over the Manual. Yes, a manual is fun to drive and you do get a little better gas mileage, but there is more than just tranny wear and tear. When launching a manual tranny, everything goes into instant "shock" at the same time. When launching an auto, everything is under pressure from the time you hit the gas till the time you let off the gas. There is no "shock" for internal or external parts.

I have owned 4 1g DSM's... The first 3 were M/T and the last was an Auto. All of my manual DSM's had at least 3 to 4 tranny replacements within 2 to 3 years. Note I drove the crap out of them and they were all stock. My auto, which I still own, has had 1 tranny put in it due to me snapping an axle which hit the tranny and busted a hole in it. I drive it like I stole it all the time. The first 2 years, the transmission was 100% stock and I shifted it with the RoadSurge shift box all the time since the TCU was bad when I got it. I recently rebuilt the tranny by myself since I am getting higher up in the HP range. I did mess up and now have no reverse, but that will be fixed soon.

Honestly, I would get what you want the most. But....If you can't afford a really beefed up tranny and don't want to be replacing drivetrain parts all the time, go with an Auto. I never noticed the difference in speed from the manual to the auto. Auto launches rock though!

 

[johnmarines]

this debate can go on and on.... time to move on.

 

[jrohner]

I thought racing was not just about who's got the faster car but who's the better driver as well? Might as well be racing in auto pilot.

Because all there is to driving a car is running a shifter and clutch.

You say that like there's nothing involved in driving an auto. Yeah sure, its a little harder to launch a manual (especially if you don't know the physics of a clutch). But its not like you just mash the gas and get a great launch in an auto. There's timing, throttle control and brake control. It takes practice too. Auto pilot my

Get a turbo that takes a while to come up on the stock converter and you'll think launching a manual is easier. Waiting in prestage for boost, then roll up to stage with boost, all the timing has to be right for it to work out.

 

[rock1t]

things that should be closed, because it's just like a ford vs. chevy debate, obama vs. mccain, etc.

if you don't know how to drive, then buy an automatic. if you want to learn how to drive, buy a manual.

the talent lies when you can shift your own car faster than a tcu could tell your car to shift. everytime you race your car, something is different, and if you are a true driver, you can adjust for conditions.

 

[Aceman]

I like the fact that properly operating a car with a manual transmission is a skill. Traction control, abs, yaw control, blah, blah, blah. There is a certain amount of satisfaction that I get from developing the skills necessary to manually control what my car is doing. It just fun. That's what driving is all about to me.

 

[TSimage]

things that should be closed, because it's just like a ford vs. chevy debate, obama vs. mccain, etc.

if you don't know how to drive, then buy an automatic. if you want to learn how to drive, buy a manual.

the talent lies when you can shift your own car faster than a tcu could tell your car to shift. everytime you race your car, something is different, and if you are a true driver, you can adjust for conditions.

You know nothing about cars/racing/basic mechanical engineering.

There is NEVER a time when you will be able to physically shift your car faster than an Auto. PERIOD>

Auto is just for more intelligent people who are tired of wasting money on an inferior manual setup. Your point is mute. Many autos are shifted, get that stupid idea out of your head that this is the "I get to shift vs you just stomp the pedal" argument. The thing that makes the Auto different besides smother acceleration, better power transition, better turbo response and whatever else is how much faster the auto responds to your input. Here are 2 examples..

A dogbox is the creme' de la creme' of manuals available to us (clutchless manuals are top dog but many consider those autos like power glide trannys)

JRM with his 2G Dog box on the street

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Here is my boy Ted with his Auto transmission:

YouTube - A ride in the Battle Tank


Now for the ignorant people out there who have no concept of deciphering the 2 and are only posting in ehre ebcause they want to up their post count... Other than the obvious better transient performance of the auto, what is different between the 2? Neither require any use of your left leg and both are manually shifted. (That and one cost about 1/4th of the other)

there you have it folks. I killed the discussion again, except this time I have visuals for the mentally impaired. So don't let me see another one of you remedials bring up the 'shifting" argument because it doesn't hold water.

 

[Aceman]

You know nothing about cars/racing/basic mechanical engineering.

Auto is just for more intelligent people who are tired of wasting money on an inferior manual setup.

You need to just stop being an insulting jerk. Seriously. It has been the case for quite some time that cars from the factory get quicker 1/4 mile times as manuals. Insulting the intelligence of others over this is just immature.

 

[rEclipserGST]

You need to just stop being an insulting jerk. Seriously. It has been the case for quite some time that cars from the factory get quicker 1/4 mile times as manuals. Insulting the intelligence of others over this is just immature.

Welcome to the board. Owning noobs that are in denial is a part of life. Wheres the Mod when you need em. Lockdown.

 

[greenmachine187]

If the car is stock the automatics don't last. I have never seen a stock tranny (auto) last over 150k. Most of them take a dive early 120 or 130k range. Manuals seem to last a lot longer. I have a 93 with stock manual trans and 175k on it. I mean how much fun can u have in the snow with a automatic?

 

[TunaTalon]

The stock auto in my talon was still pulling strong and shifting hard after 183,000 miles. It was treated to a rebuild and high stall TC to match the additional torque of the stroker conversion.

In three inches of slushy snow the stock auto Talon would pull away from a Hemi Jeep Grand Cherokee with snow flying off of all four tires. That was as much fun as you can have below 30 MPH.

 

[TITS]

You need to just stop being an insulting jerk. Seriously. It has been the case for quite some time that cars from the factory get quicker 1/4 mile times as manuals. Insulting the intelligence of others over this is just immature.

This was true 5 years ago or more. Today this isn't true at all, look at every 6-8 speed auto car thats out there with some real power, they're all faster than the manual versions of the same car (most of the manual versions of the car are tuned for more hp/tq to make up for the difference and still aren't faster!). It's because autos can shift quicker, easier, and more efficiently, and torque converter stall along with preloading the drivetrain is something that a manual car will never be able to do, I don't care how much romance there is with a manual,thems the facts. A preloaded suspension will always be faster off the line, an auto can be made to shift with some serious line pressure that no human could come close to with a manual. Manuals have always been 'faster' in the past because no one spent the engineering funds to find the correct match between final gear ratios, tranny ratios, stall speeds, shift points, torque curves, and suspension. When you do all these things perfectly, an automatic simply can't be beat in a straight line race from a stop. This is why autos are faster in all the brand new cars out today.


Go take a look at some gmc syclone vids if you don't believe me. See the entire syclone raise up off the ground while stopped, from the torque converter loading the drivetrain. Auto + AWD launches harder on the street than anything in existence. This is why I'm looking at DSM's I'm sick of not having traction on launch in my rwd.




With a top notch driver this may be different, case in point, a guy broke 11's in a stock '06 z06. Every other good driver, even experienced professionals, runs mid 11's in those cars. And no, I very much doubt anyone else could break 11's in that car, the guy who ran it is a freak of nature.


... Now I will give you that a manual you can power shift which is going to be quicker off a roll vs an automatic, and the fact that most manuals have more gearing available, which is better for 90% of driving. But off the line, you're not gunna convince me at all. To me that's what really counts, anyone can powershift and learn how to hit that 2-3 shift over time, but not everyone knows how to make a suspension hook up

 

[autotalon]

I've had my auto since 02. The only problem its ever given me is the end clutches were slipping when I was making power. I have not rebuilt it, but I have improved it. Currently it has >230k kms on the clock. The mods I have done include...

end clutch kit
shift kit
bar and plate trans cooler
synthetic fluid
restalled stock converter
double layer flex plate
trans temp guage
chip for the TCU

This trans has out lasted a lot of the local DSMers manual trannies. Even the ones that have had high end rebuilds done. To say they are weak or won't last is ignorant.

 

[Aceman]

This was true 5 years ago or more. Today this isn't true at all, look at every 6-8 speed auto car thats out there with some real power, they're all faster than the manual versions of the same car (most of the manual versions of the car are tuned for more hp/tq to make up for the difference and still aren't faster!).

They don't even make auto versions of most actual racing orienting production sports cars. And over 5 years ago is when DSM's were produced. I wouldn't say manual versions are tuned for more power so much as they just don't suffer the power loss of an automatic transmission. There are points and counterpoints that could be talked about forever, but In all reality the majority of sports driving enthusiasts will pick a manual. Some manuals are faster, some are slower. The major deciding factor in the majority of cars(DSM's included) is the driver. If you want to develop the skill necessary to make a manual car go faster than the auto version of it then you get a manual. That's not to say I'm insulting your skill or intelligence if you prefer an auto. Its personal preference, but when it comes down to DSMs, a good driver with a manual will beat a good driver with an auto the majority of the time. When you get into modding a car, or shooting for the fastest 1/4 mile, or fastest shifts, or talking about specific cars, the argument becomes highly relative to each situation. Just to emphasize my point, I'll say it again; the major deciding factor in the majority of cars(DSM's included) is the driver, not the transmission. Sure, some day all auto's will be faster. You'll probably be able to just sit in a car, it will warm up the tires for you better than a human could, it will launch better than a human could, and it will drive itself down a track better than a human could. Where's the fun in that? There has got to be a limit, and speed aside, to some people an automatic transmission just crosses the line.

 

[james3340]

most people prefer auto cause there is no human error on shifting

 

[donniekak]

If the car is stock the automatics don't last. I have never seen a stock tranny (auto) last over 150k. Most of them take a dive early 120 or 130k range. Manuals seem to last a lot longer. I have a 93 with stock manual trans and 175k on it. I mean how much fun can u have in the snow with a automatic?

A manual transmission, in a dsm is lucky to make 10,000 miles in a high power car, that is driven hard. When it breaks you have shrapnel tearing up your entire gearset.

Auto's wear out, they rarely break. New clutches and bands get you fixed and ready to roll.

I have a manual in my dsm currently, but will be swapping to auto, when i can find a donor car. I do like the experience of driving a manual, but an auto on the same setup will be faster, and i am sick of rebuilding dsm transmissions. In the past year i've run 4 clutches, 3 transmissions, and broke several axles. I do drive the crap out of it, so i'm not angry. I have decided i'd rather spend money on go fast parts, than constantly fixing the driveline.

 

[johnmarines]

 

[TSimage]

They don't even make auto versions of most actual racing orienting production sports cars. And over 5 years ago is when DSM's were produced. I wouldn't say manual versions are tuned for more power so much as they just don't suffer the power loss of an automatic transmission. There are points and counterpoints that could be talked about forever, but In all reality the majority of sports driving enthusiasts will pick a manual. Some manuals are faster, some are slower. The major deciding factor in the majority of cars(DSM's included) is the driver. If you want to develop the skill necessary to make a manual car go faster than the auto version of it then you get a manual. That's not to say I'm insulting your skill or intelligence if you prefer an auto. Its personal preference, but when it comes down to DSMs, a good driver with a manual will beat a good driver with an auto the majority of the time. When you get into modding a car, or shooting for the fastest 1/4 mile, or fastest shifts, or talking about specific cars, the argument becomes highly relative to each situation. Just to emphasize my point, I'll say it again; the major deciding factor in the majority of cars(DSM's included) is the driver, not the transmission. Sure, some day all auto's will be faster. You'll probably be able to just sit in a car, it will warm up the tires for you better than a human could, it will launch better than a human could, and it will drive itself down a track better than a human could. Where's the fun in that? There has got to be a limit, and speed aside, to some people an automatic transmission just crosses the line.

This post is all over the place, a majority of them in the wrong place.

As of now, MOST performance cars come in an Auto version and some ONLY come in auto. This is a simple fact.

I rather not get into the rest of the post since no notable point was made but your comment about a good driver in a manual DSM beating an Auto DSMer is a horrid one an fickle at ebst.. Where have you been the last 2 years.

All of the fast DSMs, well nearly 90% are all Auto. The fastest guys are 100% auto and the upcoming generation of fast builds are nearly 90% auto (or converting) as well so I doubt that number will change.

When you get it through your head that its not physically or mechanically possible for a manually operated vehicle to be faster than an Auto, you will be enlightened. The only fast manuals operate like autos and are no more "manual" than any other auto car raced that is shifted like in the videos I posted.

Why is this thread still going? Lets do this, you post the top 5 5/4spd DSMs from the past season and I'll post up the Fastest Autos?

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm still curious about the 'where`s the fun in that' comment that seems to crop up here. You lose missing shifts, overreving, breaking your drivetrain. Where's the fun in that?

You can't be honest with yourself and feel good blowing apart you drivetrain because you're 'gaining a skill'. I've seen the best, most experienced drivers kill their fresh dsm manual box. 'Fun' may be relative, but only to a point. When you start making enough power to have fun, your manual is aticking clock to pushing her off the track, off the road, wagging heads, and another weekend gone getting her back functioning again. NONE of that is 'fun'.

 

[Aceman]

This post is all over the place, a majority of them in the wrong place.

As of now, MOST performance cars come in an Auto version and some ONLY come in auto. This is a simple fact.

I rather not get into the rest of the post since no notable point was made but your comment about a good driver in a manual DSM beating an Auto DSMer is a horrid one an fickle at ebst.. Where have you been the last 2 years.

All of the fast DSMs, well nearly 90% are all Auto. The fastest guys are 100% auto and the upcoming generation of fast builds are nearly 90% auto (or converting) as well so I doubt that number will change.

When you get it through your head that its not physically or mechanically possible for a manually operated vehicle to be faster than an Auto, you will be enlightened. The only fast manuals operate like autos and are no more "manual" than any other auto car raced that is shifted like in the videos I posted.

Why is this thread still going? Lets do this, you post the top 5 5/4spd DSMs from the past season and I'll post up the Fastest Autos?

This thread is still going because its a topic on a forum on the internet and thats what happens. It is also still going on because people like you keep making remarks that can be taken offensively. I worded my post very respectfully, yet you say I make no notable point even though, in my opinion, I make the only point necessary to address the topic of this thread. Why would I take the time to post if I thought I wasn't adding to the topic? Do you see when I joined? Do you see how long it has taken for me to accrue the measly amount of posts that I have? I don't make posts for the hell of it.

You need to get it through your head that I am talking about the MAJORITY of DSMs, not the fastest. I literally made that as clear as possible. You are arguing with me over something I am not talking about. Also, go ahead and try to go to a dealer and get an automatic Viper SRT-10, Corvette ZR-1, GT-R, Shelby GT-500, or Nismo 370z. Go ahead and let me know which cars come with paddle shifters. Go ahead and compare those to the automatic transmissions that come with DSMs. Go ahead and call all of those cars terrible cars that don't prove anything. Go ahead and just dismiss that fact that I said it comes down to preference and/or driver ability. Go ahead also dismiss the fact that I never even said that anyone could shift a manual transmission faster than an auto. Just keep coming up with something to go against what I am saying in some way and just prove what I already said about points and counterpoints. Go ahead. Do it.

I'm still curious about the 'where`s the fun in that' comment that seems to crop up here.

It keeps popping up because, as has already been said multiple times, IT IS PERSONAL PREFERENCE. Some people enjoy successfully operating a manual transmission, some people don't. Some people break manuals, some people don't.

 

[arowell9]

no one can shift better thana an aut but a stick give you alot more leway with how you drive. i wouls go with a stick.

 

[Tanro]

So no one throw up the whole auto's are good for drag...

Well sorry but let the facts speak for themselves... The torque convertor in an automatic puts less stress on the drive train. When was the last time you saw an auto brake a tranny during a 10 second pass at 125+ trap speeds?

Now when was the last time you saw a manual break a transmission doing the same? Probably a lot more recently.

Autos can shift faster than any human possibly can. PERIOD end of story, dont try and argue because it is fact based on human reaction times, laws of physics, and the fact there is less stuff being moved around.

I wouldn't rev on you, and i would own you off the line. And I'm pretty sure, i didn't build my car to race honda's. That's like the special olympics there.

You sir should not be talking about your competition so blatantly while they are kicking your ass. At least this guy could get a podium in the Special Olympics. You would probably just be dead last.

That's the problem. Drag racing should be fun, there shouldn't be bracket racing, it should all be heads up. Also, if you can't shift fast enough in a straight line, then you shouldn't be driving.

There is a reason for bracket racing. It is called competition, It is only fair that you be placed against similar cars to your own. By your theory it would perfectly okay to match the average bolt-on mustang against a top fuel dragster that runs a 4 sec quarter.

Auto's are like the training wheels on bikes.

I'm sorry training wheels are used to help kids learn to balance their bike. Auto's are a completely different transmission system than manual gearboxes. Your analogy makes zero sense what so ever. Auto transmission are built for multiple reasons including , reliability, luxury, ability to handle more torque, and can also be built to perform to the highest levels possible.

I know that most 'racers' use auto's, because they are incompetent at driving in a straight line for a 1/8th or a 1/4.

Well obviously they are not incompetent if they do not hit a wall between point A and point B. But shit, if the auto gets them there faster without requiring as much maintenance and with even less chance of breaking then why the hell not?

When I watch a speed shop owner run 7.50s in a manual and stay consistent, then that means there should be no need to run an automatic.

Obviously said speed shop owner is not running a DSM because the current world record's are 7.70 for an OEM style drive-train, and 6.90 for a modified drive-train. So unless he is Brent Rau, and not running a DSM tranny it is not a DSM, and even if it were Brent Rau your argument is mute because it is not an OEM DSM tranny in any case.

Honestly, how hard is it to drive in a straight line down a track?

All ready covered this one. It is not. And it has no bearing on whether you should drive a manual or an auto.

In the end it is all up to personal preference. To me, the Manual is more fun to drive. The auto is not gonna have nearly as many issues and is fine for drag racing. With a shift kit and a fully stalled torque converter it can hellaciously fun and I speak from experience. I have driven both, I know the facts, and I prefer my manual because it is fun. If I were building a serious drag car, I would take an auto every day.